44-Martha Snyder-3 Vaginal Births-Oliver, Luna & Caspian-Brave Steps Doula Services

In this episode, Martha talks about what it was like to give birth with a language barrier in Japan, the unexpected quickness of her 2nd birth, and how being a birth doula helped her gauge what phase she was in during her third birth, which was also precipitous. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Martha Snyder- https://bravestepsdoulaservices.com/ 
• Evidence-Based Birth: https://evidencebasedbirth.com/ 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International: https://www.postpartum.net
• BabyCenter: https://www.babycenter.com/ 
• Kelly Mom: https://kellymom.com/ 

Definitions:

• Prodromal Labor
• Braxton Hicks Contractions
• Meconium Aspiration Syndrome
• Fertility Awareness Method

Transcript

Kiona: 0:07

Hello, and welcome to Birth As We Know It. I am your podcast host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, and as a mother of three amazing children with my husband and high school sweetheart by my side. After attending over 130 births, including my own, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me every week as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of the stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive into this episode today, I want to ask that you listen to this episode with the intention of sharing it with a friend. You can share this episode directly from wherever you're listening to your podcast, or you can find the specific webpage on my website kionanessenbaum.com. Sharing this episode, we'll bring the stories on this podcast to the ears of many more. All right. Let's dive into the episode. Hello, everybody. And welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I am interviewing Martha Snyder on her three very different birth experiences, one of which was in Japan, and two of which were here in the States. So we're going to talk about that. And I'm excited because she is also the owner of Brave Steps Doula Services and is offering fertility support, birth support, and does usually offer postpartum support, but is just taking a break right now because she's got a little one of her own. So, yeah, Martha, welcome to the podcast.

Martha: 2:14

I'm glad to be here.

Kiona: 2:16

Yeah. So let's go ahead and just start by you telling us a little bit about yourself and who's in your family.

Martha: 2:22

Yeah, so, as you said, I'm Martha Snyder. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the Portland area, moved up to the Seattle area where I met my husband, and we lived here for a couple years. Then we moved to Japan and lived there for a couple years. We lived in eastern Washington for a couple years. Back down to Portland area for a couple years, and now we're back in the Seattle area. So, kind of like a weird circle.

Kiona: 2:49

Yeah, it happens.

Martha: 2:50

Yes. And, we like to joke that, you know, at each place we, like, picked up a child. So, like, we moved, had a kid, moved, had a kid, moved, had a kid, and then we moved. And we want to be done with moving and having kids now.

Kiona: 3:07

That sounds like a good plan. You know, I think three is a good number. I have three. No judgment to those that have more, but I do not envy you and I give you all the praise for being able to get through it. Let's go ahead and just dive into the first conception that you've experienced. So your first's name is Oliver, so let's talk about the conception process and pregnancy with Oliver.

Martha: 3:32

So my husband and I were living in Japan at the time we were both teaching English to high school students, which was just a fantastic opportunity to kind of travel a little bit and see what was out there. and we both, like when we got married, we knew we wanted kids and it just kind of was like, you know, the timing's right, so let's do this. so it took three months of like trying, I mean, we weren't like super like doing all the things we're just like, let's just see what happens. And three months later we were expecting, which was super exciting. so no huge issues there. Just, it just sort of happened and we were very excited.

Kiona: 4:15

I think that's awesome. I think that also leads to a little bit of fun with knowing that you're trying, you know?

Martha: 4:21

Oh yeah.

Kiona: 4:22

And so, how was your pregnancy with Oliver? Did you experience any really intense symptoms or anything like that?

Martha: 4:29

I think it was pretty like normal to like uneventful. I was you know, sick a little bit at the beginning, but nothing too terrible. mostly just didn't want to eat and had low energy. But besides kind of that, it wasn't too bad. It took, maybe a couple weeks to sort of, like, figure out the remedies and things that worked for me. So I found, ginger candies were amazing. Especially, I could get some there in Japan. they were, like, these hard Candies that were, like, round and had little bits of ginger in it, and those were, like, the best. and peppermint tea. so, and I was in, my first trimester in, kind of the late spring, early summer, and summers there are just insanely humid and hot, and it was awful, to be so sick, when it was super duper hot and warm. I did not love that. and having peppermint tea when it's starting to get warm was a little weird but it helps so that's what I did

Kiona: 5:25

Nice. And so, when it comes to the care that you received, how was it different in Japan than it is in the States?

Martha: 5:32

Yeah, so I think the biggest difference is that for the most part people tend to have prenatal care and give birth in The nearest equivalent would be birth center, like a birth center, but they're kind of different than birth centers here in that the birth centers are like OB run, they're small, but most of them can all do like in house C sections there, so very different than birth centers here. But the hospital care tends to be people that are more high risk and that might need a lot more care or might be, admitted to the hospital, either before birth or after birth. So that's, probably the biggest difference. as well as so, pregnancy care Isn't covered under like the national health insurance, which is kind of odd because they're like, well, you're not, it's not an illness. But you get these vouchers from your local, City Hall, that basically covers everything. So besides the initial appointment, basically before I had gone and like you register that you're pregnant at City Hall, which is kind of weird, but. You do what you gotta do, you know, when in Rome. so I had, this little book of, like, coupons. And for, certain appointments, I would, give them the coupon, and it would, er, for every appointment. And then it would cover, everything that was written on it, which was just kind of, the standard tests. And some of them, I had to pay a little bit, but, it was the equivalent of, like,$10. And basically, I would have to pay that, once a month. I Would have two coupons when I was doing two appointments monthly, and one of them would be free, and one of them I would pay, that ten dollars. another big difference for care is that they do an ultrasound. Pretty much at every appointment, but they're like super quick. So like I never had a big like 20 week Let's look at everything. I'm Assuming that kind of along the way they sort of looked at all of those things, but they were usually like five minutes They'd do the heartbeat. They'd measure baby and then at the end they were like measuring fluid. Every appointment was like, okay, let's do this I'm like, okay,

Kiona: 7:49

Yeah!

Martha: 7:51

try to think of other but otherwise like It's kind of very similar. You go in, you get weighed, you pee in a cup, you do, the measurements, they listen to the heartbeat, you talk to the doctor for a second, and then you're on your way. Oh, the other thing that's different is you don't make appointments. I've never made an appointment in Japan. You just, show up, which is In some ways kind of nice, because like, usually I would go like on a certain day, but some days I would just be like, I'm too tired, I don't want to go, I'm like, I'm just going to go home after work and not go to an appointment. So it just meant you had that flexibility. But it also meant sometimes you might be waiting for a really long time for your appointment. So, for me, so in Japan, one of their biggest holidays is New Year's. A clinic was probably closed for a little while in August, cause that's their other big holiday. but in Japan they were like closed for New Year's, I'm assuming if you had a baby, they were like, there. but they didn't do any appointments, but then the week after, and I was like, thirty I would have been like 37 weeks around New Year's, full. it took forever to get an appointment. I think the doctor had called in. I'm assuming some, like, doctor friend, maybe someone that was retired, to help get, through the appointments, because it was the only time I saw this guy. but oh my gosh, it was so long So long, I think, my husband went to get food and come back because of just I think he was working that day and he like came right after work and he was starving and I was like, just go. It's fine.

Kiona: 9:36

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. definitely need food. I find that so interesting that no appointments needed to be, booked ahead of time. But like you said, there's pros and cons, you know, the, Like

Martha: 9:49

Like it was nice. I mean, same with like my, when after he was born, like the pediatrician appointments, like you just show up. which was kind of nice. You don't have to worry about Oh, they're full. We can't see you. the only I guess, stipulation with that was they would only do well visits, like right after lunch. Which was kind of cool because I was like, there weren't any sick kids there or anything. It was just like, I mean, it was mostly babies. but it was always right after lunch, so every time he had, a well visit, I had to take a half day, and that was really annoying.

Kiona: 10:24

Yeah, that could, I could see that being annoying. one thing that I noticed that you said was that the, What you kind of related to being equivalent to birth centers here over there is still ran by OBs and doing c section in house. That's so interesting.

Martha: 10:39

Super interesting, which was kind of nice. It would be really rare you'd need something big to, have to go to the hospital, which was really nice to be like, okay.

Kiona: 10:48

Yeah. So that led me to think, though, are there midwives in Japan?

Martha: 10:54

There are, and I think some of the So, and that's the other thing with me, so my Japanese is not great, and my medical Japanese is even worse. my husband's Japanese is pretty good, so like for appointments and everything we were fine, but there was also just a level of acceptance that there are some things that I will just never really know or understand or get the exact thing. That was going on. So I think some of the people that worked there were also midwives, especially like the people, so the way my clinic was like, structurally set up is that the bottom was sort of like the clinic, and the top was for like, where you gave birth and had the postpartum rooms. So I think some of the people that worked up top were midwives, but I'm not sure who was midwives and who were nurses, cause that's just one of the things I don't know.

Kiona: 11:47

Yeah, yeah. And that's true. Like I'm talking to you and I didn't even contemplate or even really think about the fact that there's a language barrier. Yeah. And usually it's, you know, being in America or being in Washington, English is a dominant language and it's easier to communicate and have those questions with being a primarily English speaker. So I didn't think of that. And that's so interesting.

Martha: 12:11

Yeah, so like the doctor's assistant and he usually would start the ultrasound like every time and he had a little English, but he would be like reading off of the screen like how many grams it was estimated and I was like, I actually know that Japanese dude, but he would be like really slow and I'm just be like, okay, you practice your English. Go for it. It's great.

Kiona: 12:34

Yeah. That's really cool. Help each other out a little bit.

Martha: 12:37

Yeah.

Kiona: 12:38

Yeah. so, I'm interested in hearing how this language barrier impacted, your labor and birth experience.

Martha: 12:45

Yep, that is definitely a thing. So, at the time, because my husband's Japanese was pretty good, he had sort of like brushed up on labor and delivery stuff. Because at the time, like the people we knew there were all teachers. And people that had jobs and, needed to work. and, our friends there were a lot of people that were there on the same program. So they were, like, 22 year olds teaching English and most of them were single. And, those were the people we knew. so at the time, we were like, Okay, I think we'll be good, with what we have. And then we got there when I was in labor. And it was like the office staff that was like, maybe you should call someone. Like they got really nervous, even though, especially in retrospect. I think we would have been fine. So kind of last minute, my supervisor was called to be there, which, I love her. She does have children, which was great. But of all the, like, English teachers I worked with, she was probably, lowest on my list of people that I would have wanted to be there, just because she is very nervous. she Always looked like she was about to cry. So, but it was, you know, in that moment and at the time it was just like, sure, whatever, we don't have time to figure out and finagle things, so I guess she's gonna be there when I give birth. I'm sure she did not think that that was gonna be on her list of responsibilities as my supervisor, but, okay.

Kiona: 14:22

Yeah, that is so interesting. That is very, very interesting, because here in the States with having some experience with supporting clients in hospitals, they usually have some kind of interpreter service,

Martha: 14:36

yes,

Kiona: 14:37

so it sounds like that wasn't

Martha: 14:39

No, so, there were two other people, in my whole prefecture, which is, the state, on the program that had given birth recently. So one the year before and one the year before that. So like when I was first pregnant, I was like emailing them cause one lived at the like top of the state and the other one lived at the bottom. I was like, tell me all the things. but I can say with relative confidence that I'm probably the only English speaker and white person that ever gave birth in that facility. because there just weren't a lot of foreigners where we were. And cause Japan is so They're not, there's just not a lot of foreigners, especially if you get outside of like Tokyo and Osaka and like the big cities, like it's very, very Japanese. So that was definitely, you know, it was a cultural experience for them, too.

Kiona: 15:30

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It definitely sounds like it.

Martha: 15:33

oh, and the other thing I will mention, so when I did first get pregnant, I asked a different teacher that I worked with that also had kids to help me find a clinic. so the one thing and the thing that was important to me at the time and was suggested by one of the other people that had given birth was to find a clinic that does epidurals because most places in Japan don't. so the choice basically was the clinic that I wound up going to that actually just happened to literally be down the hill from where I lived, which was great. Super close. Or the big university hospital that was I think 45 minutes away. And for them, the way they did appointments was way more complicated. I would have had to take a day off work every appointment I had. It would have been a little bit more complicated, more far away. But, the trade off would have been that they would have had a doctor or somebody there more likely that spoke English. But, so we went with the clinic because it was closer and we had a lot more flexibility.

Kiona: 16:41

Yeah, I think that is so interesting. I never thought of that as like being a clinic or a hospital that provides birth to not have an epidural as an option. And that kind of says a lot about the healthcare system in the States in a way,

Martha: 16:58

Yep!

Kiona: 16:59

it's like,

Martha: 17:00

It's a little different focus.

Kiona: 17:02

the focus is different. That is interesting. Wow. I'm kind of like, blown away by that.

Martha: 17:10

Yeah, I mean, and I could probably go on and on and on about, like, all sorts of different things. So one of the best things, I joined a Facebook group that was basically foreign mothers living in Japan. So people from all, backgrounds and from different countries of origins. Mostly, Westerners. and some of them were there. for different reasons. So some of them were, like, both pairs were foreigners, like with me. Some had married Japanese men or were with Japanese men. And so it was, like, just, you know, a lot of different experiences. But one thing that I saw over and over and over from people was that their, doctor would be really upset or talk to them all the time about not gaining weight. because, another difference, women in Japan often don't gain that much weight in pregnancy. I had a co worker proudly tell me that she didn't gain any weight when she was pregnant, and I was like, okay, sure. Good, good for you.

Kiona: 18:11

Right,

Martha: 18:11

so I even saw on the front of my chart it had the like target weight And I think it was something like seven kilograms, which is like the equivalent of about 15 pounds And I gained quite a bit more than that. I, well, I mean, I gained in like the normal way. I gained 30 pounds, which is like right in the middle of the recommendations in the West. but I did kind of love, so my doctor, he was I like to say"old as sin". He was very old and older Japanese people tend to have, more difficult dialect they speak. So, like, I never understood, a word this man said. but his son, he told us, married a foreign woman. And, so anytime, like, weird things would pop up, he'd just be like, Oh, well, you're foreign. It's fine. And so, he never said anything about my weight. But I know many, many people that that was a big thing and that a lot of people found it really frustrating that, there was so much focus on weight gain and gaining too much weight and some of the things that I have heard of other people being told were extremely hurtful and terrible.

Kiona: 19:26

Yeah, no, that's actually really interesting because, I have had experience as a student midwife supporting, clients of Asian descent, and they had gotten sent for multiple ultrasounds because their baby wasn't necessarily growing as the midwife expected, but really Both of the parents were petite Asian people, and so their baby was also very petite, and so genetically the baby was doing just fine. But because,

Martha: 19:58

Just a little different

Kiona: 19:59

yeah, exactly, because of the standards that we have here in the States, we're used to having bigger babies. and so they were concerned and ended up being able to birth at the birth center, which is great, but, They did end up having a baby under six pounds, but baby was, like, checking out on all realms. The primary thing the midwife was worried about was the baby fitting in the car seat, so You have to make it home safely. But yeah, that's so interesting. So, during your pregnancy, did you obtain any kind of, support in preparation for giving birth?

Martha: 20:35

Yeah, so I had those friends that I had messaged just to kind of get a better idea of what to expect and what might be different, which was great, and really helpful and they were wonderful resources for me. Besides that, I mean this was sort of earlier days, I would say, so this was 2014, so there wasn't the massive amounts of online stuff so like online classes and support groups and all that like those as far as I knew I think they probably existed I just didn't know where they were. So I did a lot of stuff like just looking through all of the things on like baby center baby center was probably like One of my biggest resources. at the time I was really active on Reddit and there were like pregnancy groups there and that was really helpful too just to see what other people were doing and what to expect and what was normal. so that was really helpful. And then through Baby Center, I don't know if it still exists. At the time they had sort of a like free birth class. It was actually really helpful. So, my husband and I both did it. It was really short, but it mostly was just kind of going through, the phases of stages of labor and what to expect, and had, a few tips, and that was pretty much, most of what we did, just because There wasn't a lot of options. I'm sure there was stuff there in Japanese that would have been really difficult, and I'm not sure how terribly helpful it would have been. and because I just sort of accepted that it was going to be a wild ride, that I was just kind of buckled up for being really open to see what happened. Mm

Kiona: 22:19

Yeah, I think that's awesome that you were able to utilize the resources through what you could get access to, like BabyCenter. That app is like super popular amongst pregnant people and I used it for all three of my births even though you know, I became a birth doula and, was this birthy person, like I still turned to BabyCenter cause I was like, Oh cool, they also have a registry now, you know, it just like they've expanded so much with their app.

Martha: 22:45

I think just in general like googling as things came up or came to mind to be like, Oh, what should I pack? What, what does this look like? And I'm definitely a planner, so I know there was a lot of, research and stuff that went into it, but I also know, it was also, like, but we'll see. And the hospital also gave us, a list of, things to bring, so that was also kind of helpful.

Kiona: 23:08

Yeah, that's, that is cool. I do like when hospitals give at least something, because that means people aren't necessarily going in completely empty handed, you know?

Martha: 23:18

Yeah. Well, and there was definitely some things that were very specific to, birthing in Japan that I didn't know was a thing. So, like, one of the things they have, I think they're called, maternity underwear. And, so my friend had actually given me some of the stuff that she had that was extra and she had some that were unused. And they were sort of, at least the ones I had, they were kind of, Fleece underwear, but they have a flap that velcros at the top, so like postpartum you'd, they'd, instead of the like mesh underwear, they'd put like all this in, but then they can have like access to see things.

Kiona: 23:56

Oh...

Martha: 23:58

And so i was supposed to bringsome of those. But I'm sure to, cause I think I have heard stories of people that just don't and, I mean, they're medical professionals, they figure it out.

Kiona: 24:07

right, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Martha: 24:09

I was like, oh, this is different.

Kiona: 24:11

Yeah, that's cool though. That's cool. Just like one of the other small little differences, you know.

Martha: 24:16

Right?

Kiona: 24:17

That's really awesome. so let's go ahead and dive into your birth story with Oliver. When did you know that you were in labor and what steps did you take to get to your birthplace?

Martha: 24:27

So I gave birth at 40 and 5, so I was a little overdue, but sort of typical for a first timer, I felt great, like I felt wonderful my entire pregnancy, like especially at the end, like I was not uncomfortable or anything, except like maybe the day before I gave birth. So, Tuesday we like met some friends for lunch, cause I was on leave and I was like, I just kind of just feel bleh today. And then the next day, Wednesday night was when I went into labor. So my husband and I, so it was. It's dead of winter, it's January, it's so cold, like this, where we lived, they have not figured out like insulation well in this, so it's just cold. And we're like huddled up, we have this like kind of They have these tables called kotatsu that are like coffee tables that have a heater underneath and Then you put a blanket over the top and then you put your legs under it and they're fantastic So that's where we like hung out all winter and we're like watching TV as we often would do at night and I just remember feeling and Thinking like man, I think I have to like Poop? cause I kept feeling poop cramps is what I thought they were. And then I went to go to the bathroom before I went to bed and I was like, Oh, that's mucus and bloody show. Maybe that was contractions. So I like tell my husband and he's and he's cause he's very like nervous type. And so he's like, Oh my gosh, what do we do? And I was like, let's go to bed. And he's like, are you sure? And I was like, yeah, I'm feeling things, but it's like period cramps. let's try and sleep. So, he, miraculously, I'm pretty sure he actually went to sleep, which, for a nervous guy, is crazy. And I tried to sleep, but I was not very successful at it. So, was, like, trying to sleep. I at least got some rest in. I think it was about 12, 12: 30 that I pulled out the contraction timer and was, like, timing a few. I probably was around like one that I'm like, okay, I can't stay in bed anymore. So we kind of labored around the house for a little bit. I tried like we have Japan tends to have really big bathtubs and I tried the bathtub and was super disappointed that I didn't like it because I was like, Oh, the bathtub I hear it's so great. Yeah, I, at least for him, I did not, I was not into it. I also distinctly remember just switching from feeling like really, really hot to really, really cold. Like I'd have a contraction and feel really, really hot and just fling off my bathrobe and then it'd be done and I'm like, Oh, now I'm cold. at one point I was like, Oh, I should eat something like before I get there. Cause I'm relatively sure they're not going to let me eat because, just Japan tends to be a lot more traditional and conservative. So he made me, I think I ate like some banana and he made me like a banana pancake and I think I ate half of it and then it kind of like things were ramping up. So like by the time the pancakes were done, we had decided to go in. He called and they were kind of like, you can come in if you want. and that I think was around 3. 30 in the morning. So we kind of like, you know, trudged to the car and just down the hill. It was only a couple minutes, but I also remember it being like, this sucks. I hate this drive. I'm so glad we went with the close place.

Kiona: 27:50

Ha. ha.

Martha: 27:51

so I got there, they had me come in, to the downstairs place had me do an exam down there, and, I don't know if this is normal or not. I'd never asked, so they never told me, like, where I was, like, as far as dilation or anything. I don't, again, I don't know if that's common or not, or if I could've asked and they would've told me, but basically he was like, Yup, you're in labor! And then sent me upstairs, so I went upstairs. And so you go up the stairs and then that first little bit is like the labor and delivery room and then they have a hallway that's all the postpartum rooms. So they had me, I think, put my stuff in the postpartum room and then we went back to the labor and delivery room. They had me put on the gown. I think I put on one of those like lovely underwear things. and then he's just like epidural and at that point, cause I wasn't like, yeah, I'm gonna get it or no, I'm not. It just kind of was like, whatever. And at that point I'm just like, let's just do it. It'll be easier for everyone if we just do it. So they had my husband go out, which I know isn't common here, but whatever. And he like put it in and I'm laying on the bed and. Probably my first thought was just like, well, this is a weird epidural. So it worked, which was great. Instead of having you know, the little like IV thing with the drip, it was this giant syringe that they put on my chest. So, like, it had the tube and everything was normal, like, into the back, but instead of it being a drip, it was just, a syringe. huge thing, just hanging out on my chest. And every, two ish hours, it would start to wear off. I could feel everything, but in that like, it's wearing off and everything feels weird kind of way. And then the nurse would come in, push a little bit more in, and then it would take like another 20 minutes or so to like, fully kick back in. And that's, was like the cycle we had. And I was like, not exactly what I signed up for!

Kiona: 29:54

that is so strange, but

Martha: 29:57

It was super odd, like, okay. so we did that a couple times. Well, and it just, I mean, I Never been in labor. I'd never had a baby. I, you know, we, I think the video we watched, I think had sort of showed like a delivery, but I think it was a home birth delivery, which is totally different. And just so, I'm like there, and also don't really know that much about like epidurals. So I'm like on my back and I'm like, I don't want to be on my back. Can I move? And it wasn't for like hours before Either one of the nurses helped me get on my side or something. I was like, oh, this is so much better. Uh, I think it was about 8 or 9 that they started getting nervous and were like, Hey, can you call someone? So then, my supervisor came. And I was maybe 10 ish, and then my husband was like, I'm, I'm really hungry, can I go get some food? But I was, like, terrified of him, leaving and missing everything. so I think he went and got, like, a snack or something. But, he was not gone for long. I think at some point, I know at some point he called, our parents. Just to be like, hey, things are going. but yeah, so, that was kind of it. Like, the, uh, laboring they had. The other thing I distinctly remember was they had, the monitor. And it was just, beep, beep, beep, beep. And then, the blood pressure cuff going, pshhh. And I swear, that night I could hear, the beeping still. And I was like, gosh, make it stop.

Kiona: 31:27

Mmm.

Martha: 31:29

So that wasn't great. so, at some point, They came in and checked me, and I think, again, things you don't ever know completely. I think I must have been really close, going back. I was like, I was probably like nine and a half or something, or like almost ten, and they were like, Oh, you can do like some practice pushes if you want, and I was like, Okay, and so I'm like, Doing it and thinking and then I feel a lot of pressure and stuff and I was like, oh man Like we're almost there. I think and then so they came back in and it wasn't until way later that I was like Oh, I think what I was feeling was probably, the bag of waters.

Kiona: 32:15

Mmm.

Martha: 32:16

I thought he was almost crowning, and this was, like, just getting started with pushing. It's 10. 30, and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm almost done, this is great. So I think either the water broke or they broke my water. I don't know which one it was. And then they're like, okay, let's like, let's get this pushing going. So also a cool thing, at least that bed, so instead of like stirrups, the bed like breaks down and it would like, the feet came back and it was just like a platform that had the soft kind of like foam on it. And it was so nice to like just put my feet on there and to be able to like really push and it wasn't like cold metal or like weird things. It was just like a really nice bed. platform to push against. and then I had the handles on the side and we're like going and pushing and I'm like, all right, we're going. And then it just kept going and going and going. And at some point, I, I don't know if they asked her if it was a conscious choice or they were like, this might be helpful, but they like stopped doing anything with the epidural. So like by the time he was born, it had basically totally worn off. So. I still think it was a good idea in retrospect, but I also well, I mean, I should have just not, maybe, I don't know. but yeah, so it totally wore off by the time he was born. pushed for two and a half hours. It took forever, and at the end, they were having some issues with, his heartbeat, so they wound up doing the vacuum, which worked, but then when he was born, he wasn't crying or anything, and my husband's freaking out, and he's blue and they're doing the thing. Nobody's talking. He's talking to like my supervisor being like, what's happening? And I'm just like exhausted and just like, I'm just so happy it's over. but also I should be like worried. Right. So I'm like, is he okay? And I mean, it probably was like maybe 30 seconds before like he cleared his lungs. He cried and was fine, but it, you know, feels like forever in that moment. so after the, again after the fact, we found out that there was like some meconium, there was some concern that he had aspirated some, now I don't think he did, but they were really concerned about everything. I think right after that they took him into the back room, which I think was, they had an exam table, maybe a warmer back there, I don't know. But they brought him back in like all wrapped up. Put him in my arms and I distinctly remember thinking as, my supervisor was like, do you want pictures? And I'm like, sure. And so she's got, the camera up and I have him in my arms. We're, like, taking pictures and I distinctly remember thinking, I hope I'm making a face that looks happy and, like, proud, but I'm so tired. So, we were there for a little bit. They, again, really conservative and concerned, so they wound up keeping him in, like, an isolate for, 24 hours. Again, in retrospect, I don't really think it was necessary, but, what do I know? I didn't know what questions to ask, and so that's just what we did. got Things kind of going. I think they had my husband leave when they were doing like the repair and So they're doing the repair. I think maybe they had given me a little bit more from the epidural But it wound up like wearing off because it took so long So then I think I got some lidocaine or maybe it was lidocaine and more Whatever, but they're like going and going and going and going and the doctor finishes and I hear him say like a number and in my head, I'm like, no, he must I must not have heard that right. But then he said it again. And it was definitely 50, 50 stitches because I thought maybe it was 15 because it's kind of like 50 15 is like the opposite order of the words, but he said it twice. So I know for sure it was 50 and it was like, I'm pretty sure that's a huge amount because usually you hear like 7, 8, under 10. So yeah, there was a lot of stitches down there. So they wheel me out and then into the room I think maybe they switched out the beds Must have been. Like, so I was in like the same bed in my room and it's just me and my husband there in the afternoon because they have the baby away and I'm just like, you know, Had kind of come down from everything. I think at some point they had given me food that was literally the best meal that I was there, but the way I tend to work is when I'm like Coming down from things I don't want to eat, and I was super bummed, later that I barely wanted to eat any of the delicious chicken. and then I think my husband at some point basically went and begged them to bring him to me for, like, a bit. Which they did, eventually. I think we got, like, 15 minutes in the room with him. And I'm just sitting there, and, I could tell he was hungry, but they didn't, want me to feed him. And again, I'm like, I don't know, maybe he can't, cause of, The lung stuff, and I was really bummed, and then they took him back, and that was the first night. And, and it just kind of kept going from there, a lot of I don't know what I can do, I don't know what to ask. so I'd say like the labor and delivery was kind of fine. Postpartum was a freaking nightmare. I hated being in the clinic, I hated everything about it, it was terrible. So, they tend to keep you in hospital, in the clinic, for five to seven days. Which my friend loved like she was like I was pampered and they gave me a massage and it was wonderful and I was like I felt alone and like they wouldn't give me my baby and were really unhelpful. So that was really rough The nurse we had that night was like also really rude. She kept asking my husband why he was there and if his boss knew that he was there and Every time we saw her she was Asking questions about him and, really weirded out that he was there. Which I know can be normal there, but also just dude, we just had a baby. Like, back off! yeah, so I didn't get to breastfeed until I took a class. And the class was this lady telling us about how to formula feed. It was awful. And then I got zero help breastfeeding. So it had been, I think at that point, about three days. He had been on formula for three days. I had horrific engorgement, and nobody to help, so like, I was like, Googling on Kellymom, every freaking day, finding things, and then they started coming at us being like, well, he's losing weight, and I'm like, yeah, he's supposed to lose weight, and doing all the calculations to be like, nope, he's still in the normal range, and we would argue with the nurses all day long and then they'd finally be like fine nurse him whatever and then the next shift would come on and we'd start it all over and then the doctor when he would come by and do rounds would be like talk to us and just be like yeah sure feed him it's great breastfeed it's awesome and he would be like fine whatever but all the nurses would be like freaked out and really unhelpful and that was like Every day. For five days. And, we thought we had asked if rooming in was like how they did things, and they said, oh yeah, of course. But I think our definitions were different. So we had him like that 15 minutes that first day. He was out of the isolette, I think, after 24 hours. But they still would only bring him to us if we asked. And like, when I went to take a shower, they would put him back in the nursery, and then they wouldn't bring him back to us. And so it just kind of did wind up being like, longer and longer periods of time, but that was not what I wanted, and not what I expected. And so that was really, really terrible and difficult, and I hated it. But there was one Fabulous nurse. I freaking love her. She was so kind and helpful and gentle and she like helped with my engorgement. It was really great. She was the one that wound up showing us like how to give him a bath. And she was just great. Didn't speak any English. I think I wound up just crying one day because I was so upset with how everything had been going and she just gave me a hug. And when we left, she was like on and she like gave me her personal phone number. Just. Because, she, I'm like, I don't even know how it would be helpful because she didn't speak any English. But it just was so touching that, she was like, here if you need help, and she was great. So, maybe made up for the one nurse that was horrible. But, so I got to leave at five days, which was great. I was so happy to leave. I also thought it was kind of hilarious that the doctor and everybody, like every time I had a checkup, they were always like, wow, you're healing so well and quickly and shocked. And I was like, I don't know, maybe because I had, you know, like energy because I, you know, gained over time. Decent amount of pounds for like my eight pound baby. I don't know. Maybe there's a connection there. but so we finally got to go home and I was so happy and it was wonderful. it was difficult because I, he was still on like some formula. So it was like a process to wean him off the formula that I'm still a little upset about because it was totally unnecessary. But, about I think four weeks we were finally like fully on the breast milk and I was so happy.

Kiona: 42:01

Wow, Martha, that is a story. Yeah, there's so much to unpack there, and there's a couple things that I've taken notes on here. So, one question is, with your son being born in Japan, does he have citizenship in Japan or is it dual

Martha: 42:19

He does not. So Japan does citizenship by blood, so you have to have a parent that is a citizen. So because we're both Americans, we like to tell that he was a boy without a country for three months until we could get to the embassy and get his like passport and citizenship stuff completed.

Kiona: 42:39

Wow yeah. Also, I think it's super interesting how for a vaginal birth, you still stayed five to seven nights. That's very interesting, and I see the pros and cons to that, for sure. but with them having baby in a different room, with you having that language barrier of not being able to understand what, you

Martha: 42:57

Right. I think the language barrier and just the, inexperience of just not knowing what to ask and what was normal and, I don't know, not maybe being as assertive, just, I mean, we, at that point, we had been in the country for two and a half years. So you just, you get kind of used to just like, well this is the way they do it. And I don't know, maybe if we were a little less like that, and a little more like, no. And we were with some things, and I think the things that were really important to us, as far as we could, like we pushed back a lot. But, I don't, I, we probably could have done more.

Kiona: 43:32

Yeah, that's still, I mean, I commend you for being able to do it with such a language barrier, you know, and it's It's interesting to also hear how the expectations of all of the nurses that were serving you were like kind of surprised, one, that your husband was there, and then two, that you wanted your baby so much.

Martha: 43:52

Yeah, and I know, it's fairly typical. A lot of women will go to their parents house, place that may or may not be where they now live, and then they'll have their baby there and stay with their parents for a while and then come to where they live and their husband lives, so I think that maybe is part of it. I know it's not, uncommon or unheard of that, like, your partner will be with you when you give birth. But I think the amount of time, like, Japan can tend to be a workaholic country. One time it was Saturday and she asked Why he was there. He was like, it's Saturday, lady, and then there was one time So my husband didn't wind up getting any time off for the birth So he was there like that whole day on Thursday when he was born and then his School was actually really great. His school, so where our house was and where his school was, was like right there, his school was like a two minute walk from the clinic. So his principal basically told him like he could come and go as long as he was there for the classes he had to teach, which wasn't too much. So he was able to be home a lot and be at the clinic a lot, which was great. But I did, one time, he, I think he had gone home to shower, and she was like, Oh, your husband's not here, and I just, I was like, man, I wish I had the language to, tell you off, cause, I'm, I'm pretty sick of it.

Kiona: 45:18

yeah, getting annoyed. Wow, yeah, I think that's really amazing. And. I wonder if you have your records for this birth.

Martha: 45:29

Yeah, So the thing I do have that's really cool is this little book. So this is something I got like from city hall when I registered the birth or that I was pregnant. I actually got two, I got like the normal one and then the one that has like, the English with it but the book is like a record. So it has all of my basic pregnancy records, so there's a page that has the date, how much it weighed, what my blood pressure was, the results of peeing in the cup. it has, like, all of the tests and what the results were. So, my GBS test is in there. I didn't do a gestational diabetes test, which I don't know if that's Something that they just don't really do there or if because I was relatively low risk because I was younger at the time my weight was It's normal that maybe they don't do that because I know that's how some countries do it. I don't know. Um, but yeah, all of that was in that book and then it also has a couple pages for the birth. So where the doctor put in what time he was born and how much he weighed and I can't remember off the top of my head, but all of this stuff, I think it actually has in the book. The results from the, PKU, the, little heel prick test. And I'm really happy though, because all the pregnancy stuff was in like the Japanese only book. but for some, I'm, I think maybe my husband just wound up actually giving him the like, English one. Because after birth, So it has all the, And it's not like the records, but it has like, a record of the birth. And then it also, then it becomes the child's, like, pediatric book. So it has a page for, like, all of his well visits, and in the back it has a page for all of his vaccinations, which was really helpful when we came back to the States, because I was just like, here you go, and then, like, the poor nurse at the, clinic in the U. S. had to input manually all of the like, things. as well as, so, Japan, they Do the regular calendar year but they also have, like, a Japan year that is based on how long the current, uh, emperor has been, like, the emperor. They use that date for important things and special things. So, like, when I got, like, my bank account, I had to put in and somebody figured out what my, Japan year was. so all of his vaccine records had that year and she was like, what is this? and I was like, oh, okay, so like I made a little list of like, this equals 2014 and this is 2015 for the nurse. but that's really cool and sometimes like I'll go and flip back to it to be like, oh, yeah this was like and so it has all of his like, records for like, his weighs. When we'd go to the pediatrician, and that's really cool. So I have that, still. I don't have all of the specific like, uh, with my second, I remember going into like the final files in my portal looking at all, like some of the things specifically, I don't have any of that, but I do have kind of the basic stuff, which is cool.

Kiona: 48:30

Yeah, I think that's super awesome, because then you get to just go back and take a peek and be reminded about all the things that you did and Yeah, that's really cool. And so it sounds like you established a good postpartum feeding with him after you got home and then you did, like the four weeks.

Martha: 48:48

little rough. So, um, I think it was this two week appointment. So all your appointments and postpartum stuff are done through the clinic. That you give birth in through like the first month and then you go to a pediatrician's office. So I think it was like the two week appointment because remember how I said there's not appointments. You just like show up around when they tell you to. I didn't realize that they took an hour break for lunch. And so I went up getting to the clinic like right as they closed and at that point I was like, well, I'm out So I wound up going to the store to do some shopping and then went back and it just happened that he fell asleep like right as That started and then we went to the store and then came back and then he woke up and I didn't have to wait that day, so they like Weighed him, but he hadn't been fed for like three hours and they're like, Oh, his weight's a little low. And I was like well, I haven't fed him in a while. So they were a little concerned about his weight like that one time. But yeah, so we were doing like combination feeding for a little bit and then yes, got into a really good pattern for the most part. It was a little difficult. At about six weeks he had a soy milk protein intolerance. Which meant he basically was allergic to soy and milk proteins to the extent that if I ate it, he would, like, just vomit all over the place. And that, was, really difficult, so I had to cut that all out from my diet, and it was just this huge process, and he was a very spitty, fussy, upset baby, so that was a lot, too, to work through, and, uh, I think part of because of that, he was, like, eating all the time, because he would eat and eat and eat, And then throw up half of it, and then eat some more. And then when I went back to work, I basically could just barely keep up with him, which was really Nerve wracking and frustrating because I'm like, I don't know what I will feed you child if I don't have enough milk So like it was very I was very determined which was probably both a good thing and a terrible thing But it was very stressful But in the end like once we kind of figured everything out it, worked out. We actually breastfed for two years Somehow and It was great so, figured it out I think, and thankfully, again, like, I was really stubborn about it, because there, I mean, I'm sure there were lactation consultants around, but I didn't know where to find them, and I don't know how helpful they would've been for me. Um, so, glad that I figured it out,

Kiona: 51:20

Yeah. I'm glad you figured it out too. that sounds like a very challenging moment in time. Especially with that kind of anxiety with being like, if I don't give you what I have, I have no idea what you're gunna eat, so.

Martha: 51:30

Right, I'm like, I don't know what's available here, I had found the formulas you can feed, and I could find them on, Amazon in Japan, but they were like, I mean, those are expensive formulas, they were like twice as much, cause they were like, imported, so I'm like, there has to be, I'm, there probably was an equivalent, but yeah, it would have been a lot, a lot to figure out.

Kiona: 51:54

Yeah, for sure, for sure. so I still definitely want to talk about your two subsequent births. So let's quickly talk about the, conception process with Luna.

Martha: 52:05

Yeah, so kind of the same. So we came back to the States when my son was a year and a half. My husband was going to grad school and I was a high school English teacher. So after we had been there for a so that I would have Benefits, basically, and be able to take time off. We decided it was time for a number two. Uh, also took three months. I do remember the second month, I wound up being a little, like, a little bit late for me, and I remember, like, I had It peed on a stick and it was negative and I was like Googling like, could it be wrong? like, what maybe the stick was too old? Like, uh, I was doing this in the parking lot while my husband was getting something for my sister's in law's wedding. So, I was like, I have, and then, yeah, and then I got my period, but the next month I was pregnant. so three months, and really similar, We were was just like, let's see what happens, at that point. So, yeah, sort of going back. So, because I was in Japan and they had more limited birth control options, especially those that I knew would be breastfeeding friendly. So we opted to do, fertility awareness for our family planning. So I was tracking my cervical mucus and when I could get a decent amount of sleep, my basal body temperature to avoid getting pregnant. I Still didn't go like full tilt, full bore, but that did definitely help on the conception process because it was like, do the same things, just the opposite. Um, so, took three months to get pregnant, just like before, and it was great. We're like, okay, we're gonna have another one.

Kiona: 53:53

that's awesome. So that means Luna and Oliver are about four years apart, three and a half. Three and a half years apart. Nice. And so how was Luna's pregnancy?

Martha: 54:04

Really similar, I would say, I definitely was a little sicker. And it came a little bit later, so I remember talking to some of my friends, just cause With my son, I like peed on a stick. started feeling sick the next day. With her, it was probably like six or seven weeks that I started, not feeling great. and I remember in that, interim time being, like really worried just because I know, having those symptoms usually is a good sign And I was really worried that, something was wrong, or, I was gonna miscarry. But then The symptoms came and I'd like so with her I described it as like all morning I would feel so sick that I felt like I could throw up at any moment Even though I only threw up once and then in the afternoon that would go away only to be replaced with me feeling so Dizzy that I felt like I could faint at any time. This was while I was teaching high school students full time So it's just, I'm really tired. I was so so tired all the time. So it was a limp to get through those first three months because I was pregnant, I got pregnant in September, so right as the school year was starting. Luckily, I was teaching in like a university town, and I had, I think, two university students that were just there helping out their first semester in like the teaching program, just getting hours in school and being with teachers and God bless them that they could do a lot of just like the simple grading that I had, like I showed them and, uh, cause yeah, I was so tired. It was so hard. Like my prep periods, I was like turning off all the lights and just sort of like resting, um, made it through somehow

Kiona: 55:58

Mm. Yeah, that sounds tough.

Martha: 56:00

it was, I mean, I didn't know people. Not to play the like people have it worse, but like I know people have it worse and like in the grand scheme of things It wasn't horrible. I wasn't like throwing up constantly. I just felt crummy for two months Like it was not great,

Kiona: 56:19

Yeah, I can relate to that. I was also one of those pregnant people that didn't have it as bad as others around me but I still felt like so horrible, fatigue was the biggest symptom of all time, and nausea.

Martha: 56:34

and it's so hard when you have a bigger kid

Kiona: 56:37

Yeah,

Martha: 56:38

I'm so, tired, I'm so tired, dude. I'm sorry uh, the other thing, so, cause I was all like, I figured it out, like with my first, I know what works with me. It'll be fine. None of it worked. None of the things that helped with my, like, nothing I tried helped. And

Kiona: 56:52

Mmm.

Martha: 56:53

was, uh, the hubris, cause I was like, I'll get my peppermint tea, it'll be fine. Yeah, it didn't. Like, I tried all sorts of different ginger candies. I tried ginger ale with real ginger. I tried ginger tea. I tried peppermint tea. I tried peppermint stix. I finally bought some of those, like, C bands, I was like, maybe this will help. And I did feel better when I got them, but that was when it was starting to, like, subside. So I'm like, I don't know if they actually helped or not, or if it was just like, Oh, you're actually getting better now.

Kiona: 57:25

right, right, yeah. there are so many. options out there for things that can be helpful and not all of them work for everyone. That's why

Martha: 57:32

it's finding your own thing. Yeah.

Kiona: 57:35

100%. So, how was going into her birth? Like, tell us when you realized that you were in labor and what your labor looked like.And were you chose to birth? Were you at a birth center, home, hospital? How was that this time around?

Martha: 57:47

yeah so, kind of so we were in a little more rural Washington. But on, like, a border town, so I did actually have, an option of two different hospitals. I went with the one that was, again, it was like a Less than 10 minute drive from me. I had looked through my insurance because ideally what I had wanted was like a midwife at a hospital. But there was only one that did that in the area and she wasn't covered by my insurance. So I was like, well, okay. So, I chose like an OB that had seen really good and positive reviews on and I did really love her. She was great, super kind, great at appointments. I liked her a lot. And yeah, kind of normal textbook, boring pregnancy, started feeling better, gained 30 pounds again, Everything was great, I'm a researcher, so I had researched all these things, I had researched a whole bunch of labor tools and stuff, because I'm not against an epidural, but I'd really like to not, because I really hated being in the bed, like, I really hated being tied to the bed before, and I was like, I would love to not be in bed for my labor. So I had like my bag packed and half of it was this like labor stuff that I had found like, on the internet And things that I was so excited. Um, so for her, like the Week leading up to when I gave birth, I had prodromal labor and with her it was every night I would be like. oh contract. Oh. And with all my pregnancies, I felt Braxton Hicks from like. Week 20, but it felt a little bit different, but every night I would feel contractions, sort of like I was feeling when I started labor with my first. So I'd be like kind of excited and go to bed and be like, yeah I'll probably like be woken up in a couple hours and I'll be in labor and we'll go to the hospital And it'll be great. As well as also thinking like, oh and it'll probably be like, I'll I'll go to the bathroom and it'll be my bloody show and like I'll know, I'll know, it'll, and then I'd wake up in the morning with nothing And I'll be like, dang it. and that happened every night for a whole week. And so it was Saturday. They have like a cool farmer's market where we lived and they have like a, like, I love, I miss this place cause we moved away, a nice yarn shop cause I love to knit. And they were doing like a Mother's Day sale for like 50 percent off for mothers and I got like a thing of yarn I'll be like, well, I guess I'll get this and I was just being super like Petty and emotional and being like but you know, I'll probably be able to knit something before she comes at this point I'm like three days past my due date and um So yeah, so I got that and then I like got into bed. I literally like texted a friend and be like, well, I'm having contractions again, but I'm sure I'll wake up disappointed in the morning. Like that was the time where I like just totally accepted that like, it wasn't real. It wasn't happening. Like I was going to be pregnant forever. Like pity party to me. But then of course I wake up at 3. 30. Well, I think I woke, yeah, I was about 3. 30, and I was like, I'm still having contractions, and they feel a little, a little different, a little stronger, so I like, pull up, out my phone, And I'm like, timing a few of them, and I was like, okay, these are like, regular. And I think I went to the bathroom, and at that point I'm like, okay. hun, like, this is labor. And he's like, okay. So our plan at the time, so my parents lived about six hours away. And our plan was, because we didn't really have a lot of friends or a lot of people that we knew locally, especially like, my husband was in grad school, and again, all single people, that like, like what's a baby? Please don't make me touch a toddler. Um, so my parents were gonna come to be with our older son, and then we also did have a person that we knew locally that we were friendly with, so we actually had gone to the same undergrad, but she was close friends with my sister in law. So we had Seen each other a couple times and she was like our backup person, basically. Or like, well, she can come to be with my son until, like, my parents get there. If, like, you know, the worst happens.

Kiona: 1:02:16

Right.

Martha: 1:02:16

things, you know, just get crazy really fast. Guess what? They got crazy really fast. So like, so we call my parents. They're like getting in the car, coming, and I'm just like, you know, tootling around the house and being like, uh, this sucks, but like, it's fine. Like, I can talk through the contractions. I'm fine. I'm totally fine. It's fine And then suddenly it wasn't fine. so like, literally, and again, remember, husband's nervous guy, so his story was that he was trying to get me to be like, we should go for a long time, where my version of the story is, I was fine until I wasn't fine. So it took us a bit to get the backup person on the phone, because it's the middle of the night, so it was 3. 30 when I woke up, by that time it was like 4. 00, 4. 00, it was probably closer to 5. 00 before like we finally got in contact with her. And things just got really intense, super fast, and so we were literally to the point where we were just like, we're just gonna take him with us to the car, to the hospital, cause it's time to go. So we, I think, finally leave at like, so she literally got there as we're like going to the car And we're like, great, awesome, here, threw him at her, and we're like getting in the car, again, it's not far, it's like a five minute drive, but like, as he's going, he's like, There'd be a contraction and like just the motion of the car with the contraction was just like too much. And I was like, slow, slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. And then he would like, kind of slow down but like, I'm sure not very much. Because he was like Oh gosh! and then like, he would slow down and then like the contraction would come down and be like, Okay, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. So we get there, we park, and I still, like, in my mind can remember, like, the places that I, paused. So, like, we get out of the car and there was, like, a little bench, like, a sitting bench, and I, like, stopped there, had a contraction. Luckily, this hospital was one that has, a private, entrance for the labor and delivery, which was great, so I didn't have to go through the ER. Um. I get in the entrance and we're, like, halfway down the hall to where the door to labor and delivery is and I stop. We get inside. He had called and they were, like expecting me And like, again, against the wall, like, waiting. Um, we get into my room. Which was great. I didn't have to do triage. Awesome. yay, I get into my room and I was like, oh, I have to pee. So I go and like pee and then like my water breaks on the toilet. I think there was blood when I went to the bathroom too. and the nurse was Like, oh, yay, that's good. Like, I still remember being like, yay, that's cervical change. Then my water broke. I think more blood. And they're like, yay, awesome. and they're like, you know, let's, let's do a check. Like, see where you are. I get on the bed and they're like, Oh, yeah, that's a head. So she like, calls in the other nurse and like two pushes and she's out. So Like literally were at the hospital for 10 minutes. Like from all of that to like, Oh, she's here at 5 55. Yeah.

Kiona: 1:05:28

yeah, that is quick.

Martha: 1:05:31

So three and a half hours, three and a half hours to like, okay, the baby's here. So like bag still with all my things in it just totally shut. I was like, well, that's disappointing.

Kiona: 1:05:47

Well, you didn't need it soundsl ike it.

Martha: 1:05:48

I didn't need it. So yeah. So I like to say a very lovely nurse caught her and then my doctor made it to get the placenta. so

Kiona: 1:05:58

Did you need any sutures this time around?

Martha: 1:06:00

Yeah, I needed seven this time, which I was like, way thankful for, so, way easier.

Kiona: 1:06:08

That actually makes me think. So you said you needed 50, as in 5 0 sutures the first time. Did they give you any kind of number of degree of tear or...

Martha: 1:06:18

I mean, nothing, like, I, I don't know, like I haven't had issues, so I'm assuming just a second, but, cause I know usually if you get to third or fourth, like, you, you know, you know, so, but I

Kiona: 1:06:33

but that, yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot of sutures.

Martha: 1:06:36

a lot Mm hmm. I remember too, when I was talking to, cause my OB, like she's a family doctor, so I was seeing her beforehand and I was just talking about it and like when she like examined me like for, I think it was a pap or something, she was like, Oh yeah, like she could see like all the scar tissue.

Kiona: 1:06:56

Yeah. Well, so how was your postpartum time this time around with like feeding and baby being with you or not

Martha: 1:07:03

Yeah, so she was with me the entire time. My parents did eventually come. They basically weren't even to the next town from where they were before she was born. So, from their perspective, it was like, hey, we're in labor. Hey, we had a baby. But then when they came, they got him from, so, our friend dropped him off at the hospital to come meet him. And then my parents came and took him to our house. But I guess they took him to McDonald's. and he ran like a crazy boy, like he is, all around it, and then I think he probably just got too excited and wound up throwing up that night. But we were all, like, terrified, because we were like, great, now our older kid is sick and we have a baby, awesome. But he was totally fine, I think he just got excited and nervous. But he still remembers that to this day, like, throwing up after going to McDonalds when Luna was born. But they were at our house with our oldest kid and then we left the next day at noon. So the hospital got really small. They had two nurses that were also IBCLCs. I got to see one of them, um, and she was actually my day nurse. Both days I was there And I remember because She was asking like with breastfeeding and everything She asked about my first and I like basically just like poured out the whole story of my first and she's like well after that this one's gonna be simple and bless her heart she totally was like she latched right away. We had zero issues I was able to just like pump when I was at work, and get as much as I needed. So when she was about a year old, I actually had enough extra in my freezer to, like, donate to another mom. I donated about a hundred ounces to another mom. Like, everything about it was just Easy. Like, I remember just holding my breath that first, like, two months to be like, Please, please, please don't have any food issues. Cause I love, I love my cheese. I don't want to give it up again. And, like, it was so, just such a relief when we got past that point to be like, Okay, we shouldn't have any of those issues issues this time. And, yeah, just simple.

Kiona: 1:09:14

That's awesome, and it always feels nice, at least for me it did, when going through knowing that the second time around is a little bit easier.

Martha: 1:09:24

Yeah.

Kiona: 1:09:25

My third one is the one that threw me for a loop, but, um, speaking of thirds, you have your third, Caspian. So.

Martha: 1:09:32

Yeah, well, and just to kind of finish that up, I mean, I think because it was a simpler labor, so she was born in May. Which is great as a school teacher because I had like the whole summer to just enjoy and be with her. My husband finished his master's program right before she was born and then was starting his PhD in the fall. so he was off, like, It just was this lovely, like, summer of strolling through campus and just, I felt great. I felt so, so good in comparison to after my first. Like, just, It so much easier. Everything was easy. It was great.

Kiona: 1:10:08

Mm, that sounds So beautiful. And yes, I have heard, I have many school teacher friends who have said that they have had co workers who have planned intentionally to get pregnant at a certain time.

Martha: 1:10:19

And that was kind of our plan, like, the three months. Was like well if I get pregnant right away if I take 12 weeks off That's the whole school year. So she was born in May I used all of my PTO and all of my sick leave to get paid Basically that last month and then had the three months off. So it kind of worked out perfect

Kiona: 1:10:43

Yeah. that sounds great. So let's go ahead and lead into the conception of Caspian. Mm.

Martha: 1:10:50

so I think part of it And what this may be important. So because she was born so fast And I had my unopened bag. I had a friend that lives like across the country, um, that. was pregnant and due, uh, it was like two months, I think after Luna was born and she was talking about, you know, like, you know, being nervous. I think it was also her second and, being nervous for like labor and delivery and all of that. And we were just kind of chatting and at that point I was thinking, like, Oh, I have all this stuff that I learned about using that I didn't get to. And I just kind of joked with her like, You know what? I'll just come out and be your doula. And then Literally, as soon as I had typed it to her it was that sort of wait lightbulb moment of, maybe I should do that. Not actually go, cause, you know, I had a baby to be her doula. But I was like, that sounds, really cool. so it was probably about a year of researching and looking at stuff. Oh, not quite a year. But I immediately started looking at programs and thinking about what I wanted and, jumping in different groups and learning about things, so I found a training that I loved, took it in 2018, and had been a doula for a while. I mean, kind of getting started in 2020 was weird. That put some wrenches and things, but, we had moved, in the summer, 2019. I didn't get a teaching job, which at the time I was really bummed about in retrospect, I'm so grateful I wasn't teaching the 2019, 2020 school year. Cause that would have been a nightmare. So when we moved, I was kind of like, well, let's see if we can make this doula thing work and kind of dove in more toward that because my original plan was like, oh, I'll teach and then like, get clients in the summer. And so then it came. More of like, I guess I'll sub and take clients and then the pandemic happened and then Everything went weird as far as teaching goes and now I'm like, you know what? I don't think I want to be in the classroom anymore. So now I'm a doula though I will, because you know, this comes up fairly often when I'm talking with clients or people, but I always tell them, I'm like, I'm still teaching because Being a doula is a lot of teaching and giving information and helping people. But I just tell them that now my students are really invested in learning because they know the final exam is a doozy.

Kiona: 1:13:17

Mm hmm.

Martha: 1:13:19

that's what I had been doing my husband and I had been pretty, like, from the time we were dating, we had always wanted kids and we both had been like two to three and we had two, but we weren't sure about three. I was a little, like, I remember after my second, like literally, I think no one, they hadn't even like left, like the nurses and stuff, like after she was born and just being like, I can do this again, like right now, like let's go. Because I was just riding that high of just such A healing and better experience than the first time. My husband was like, I don't know if I want to do this again, especially in the midst of grad school, because grad school is insane, especially like A PhD, and then the pandemic, and there just was kind of always reasons not to have another one. But then, like, like our friend would have a baby, and it'd be kind of like, Oh, well, uh, maybe, but not right now. And so we just kind of had, you know, we kept kicking it. Later to talk about and deciding later and later and then it kind of like literally was to the point where I'm like, okay, we have to decide now because I'm, you know, keeping kids clothes and our youngest is now five and there's just more and more things that we're saving that I want to either just get rid of it and be able to know like we're done or not. I think we had had the conversation where we both were kind of like, I don't know, but we definitely both were really feeling the, like, we need to decide, but then hadn't. And so, I think it really was, I had, Gone to a birth. It actually was sort of a last minute thing. it was a doula friend that. her client wound up getting induced a little bit early and she had an event for her child that she could not miss that was out of town that was like the next day. So, and everybody else she knew was busy. like, her doula partner was busy that, or out of town that day. and, so, it was me, and I was like, yeah, I can do that. And so, like, the first doula was there, like, for 24 hours at the beginning of the induction. And then I was there for, like, 24 hours at the end of the induction. And it was just sort of a like, I got home, and then just was like, I don't know, I had just kind of gotten off And like, tracking super closely. We still were kind of just doing fertility awareness, but not quite as consistent as you should be if that's what you're using for your birth control. and then I was like oh, it's been a while. and this story is also great because, like it just was sort of that, like, oh, I should take a test. So that evening. My friend's or my husband's friend was like, staying the night and But I just was like I can't wait I can't not and so I had like, an old test like I knew it was expired but I was like, you know what? I'll just you know, it's just for peace of mind. Like I'm probably just stressed It's fine, and it was definitely positive and I was like, it's old. It's old. It's old like that It's you know It's, it's probably, you know, And I think we had been through, like, a couple moves at that point, so I'm like, mm. So, like, the next morning, I went to the store with my kids. My husband's friend left, but then my mom came to go to my husband to do something that he knew about. And so while they were gone, I went to the store and got a fresh test and took it, and it was Glaringly positive, like, die stealer positive, And I was like, great. And so then my husband came back and then we were going to my parents for the afternoon. And I'm just thinking to myself like, I can't tell him, now because he's gonna be like, After I tell him and we, like, already made these plans. So I'm, like, just sitting there, just, like, And he's just, like, I have no idea what's happening. And that, you know, my life is about to change. Dramatically. So, got home, put the kids to bed, told him, and it was definitely, like, a Ross from Friends moment in the first episode when Carol tells him he's pregnant and he, like, freezes. That was him. Total frozen, like, wait, what?

Kiona: 1:17:52

Yeah.

Martha: 1:17:53

long conversation and definitely panic, but also I think sort of we both landed on the like, well this way we don't have to choose. Cause we both just couldn't, like, and we still talk, like we weren't sure and we weren't ready to make a decision, a permanent decision either way to like go for it or not. And so we, in some ways, are kind of relieved that nature just decided for

Kiona: 1:18:20

mm-Hmm.

Martha: 1:18:22

that, so we were pregnant.

Kiona: 1:18:24

Yeah. Wow. I can't even imagine like, holding that, secret, like during the plans with your family.

Martha: 1:18:30

Oh, it was terrible.

Kiona: 1:18:32

I would've just, I would've, I would've like, just like. combusted with

Martha: 1:18:37

was like. I was like panic texting like my mom friends. Like I have this awesome mom group. We've been together since like our, our, my first, we all had babies around that same time. So we've been together at this point almost 10 years, like just doing life. And so like, I told them because I'm like, I have to tell someone. And then they're of course all day being like. Are you home yet? Are you home yet? Are you home yet? Because they're just bursting with this secret too.

Kiona: 1:19:07

Yeah, I'm so happy that you have that group. Like, how amazing to be able to turn

Martha: 1:19:12

have been, like, especially with my first, texting them in the middle of the night crying because my child wouldn't sleep and I don't know what to do and I'm halfway around the world from anybody, they're awesome. I love them. I've met several of them in person, and, uh, find, find, find those people, like. It is the best thing, seriously, we've done life, we've been through marriages, divorces, deaths, like, so much.

Kiona: 1:19:43

Yeah. That's so, that sounds so, awesome., So lets go ahead and dive into Caspian's, like, the duration of like Your pregnancy with Them. and then as well as. Your birth with him. Them. Her. She. him. I don't know.

Martha: 1:19:59

him. Him. So, I mean, definitely, after being around and being in the area and Being in birth, like, you just look at it differently, having seen a lot of things that's kind of the peak behind the curtain, like and some of it, too, is you know too much, which can be both great and terrible. So, didn't luckily take too much convincing, because I knew I wanted to do a birth center, I a hundred percent knew that, I didn't want to do a home birth just because, with, Two other children, we, where we lived was like a, townhome, so, like, people on either side of us squished. And I just knew for me, having that in my house, like, I would feel like I needed, not to entertain, but just to be like, I'm the hostess. So, and I know that, like, need to, like, perform would be really difficult for me in my own home. Um, so, I was like, I wanted to do a birth center. Luckily a birth center had just, opened the year before, and my favorite midwife had privileges at the birth center, and I was like, yes. So, like, sent a message in, it was great, cause, uh, and I didn't know this, one of my doula friends actually does, like, She's a birth assistant for her, that I didn't know she was doing that, And then she also does some of the, just, like clerical stuff. So, like, the email came back from her, and I was like I know that person. That's interesting. And saying like uh, my actual very first birth as a doula was with this midwife, and she was wonderful, and I loved her, and so I was like that's who I want. And so we did like a consult call and like put all of my husband's fears at ease just to be like, okay, like this person knows what she's doing and she's like, not some crazy like, witch doctor in the forest that's gonna like just, you know, let me like bleed out or something. Like, she's like, okay. this this is fine. So that, was our plan, loved going to a midwife, having longer appointments, definitely something, and I, had a conversation pretty early on, I think, just to make sure we were all on the same page, to be like, I'm the pregnant person in this situation, and that both for their end and my end, that we understood, like, please don't, like, skip over things, and not explain things, just because I loved actually hearing how they would explain things, and I was like, ooh, I'm gonna like, take a note of that to talk to clients in the future about, or like, oh, that's such a great way to explain something that I did know, but like, a different way of explaining it, or like, more information or different information. So that was great. Love their practice and i'm trying to think so, was really sick again. I think more sick than I was even the second time. I was like, great, this is getting worse every time. Awesome. I also just was not, like, I it was a hard pregnancy. From about 20 weeks on, I just, I hurt everywhere, like, my hips, everything just felt awful. I did wind up seeing a chiropractor that sort of helped, like, sometimes I would, like, leave and be like, Okay, now I can, Like, live, and sometimes I'm like, I don't even know if that did anything. But just, yeah. just felt, felt it a lot, a lot more, this go around. and that was tough.

Kiona: 1:23:26

Your third sounds similar to mine. Those third pregnancies are just wild cards,

Martha: 1:23:33

That wild card,

Kiona: 1:23:35

And I mean, as a birth worker, you probably hear that or say that all the time now. Those third babies are the wild cards

Martha: 1:23:42

and knowing that was really hard to be like, man, this is a wild card, like we don't know what's gonna happen, and that was a little worrisome And we had a lot of conversations, especially toward the end of like okay, this is The second one was really fast and I talked to them, I had a doula that I had and talked to her a lot to be like, I'm both terrified, like worried that it's going to be faster and worried that it's going to be longer. That I'm worried that I'm going to prepare for another fast labor and then it's going to be like, 20 hours, but also I don't want to like bank on or plan on it being long and then it being really short again So it was just this constant like pull of both I definitely talked a lot with my doula too about Just knowing, just because I'm a bit, like, I'm a planner, and like, I'm worried about being in my head and being too much of, like, this is happening and, like, trying to doula myself. Because I know, like, you can't doula yourself. Like, that's the point. Like, you don't want to be thinking. So I want you to think for me, but I'm worried that in the moment I won't be able to.

Kiona: 1:24:51

Mm hmm. Yeah, so let's go ahead and dive straight into it. How was your birth with Caspian?

Martha: 1:24:56

Yeah, so, leading up to it, um, with the midwife, again, we had a lot of conversations, especially after How fast the second one went that, uh, I remember one of my appointments. She's like, okay So your job is to like call and come in as soon as you have contractions And I was like well about that prodromal labor and she's like, okay when you know, you're in labor and I was like, there we go So this time the plan was like it's As soon as, it's definitely labor to call the midwife, call my mom. So we were leaving, again called my mom, but this time she lived like 30 minutes away depending on traffic. So the plan was to call her right away, call everybody right away. And then as soon as like my mom came, we were going to the birth center and then that's where we were gonna be. Um, they did also say, you know, if you're not sure, we are more than fine to come to your house, see, check you there, like, you know, we can sort of play it by ear, but definitely don't be conservative to go, like, do the things, And I was like, okay. Also, I was just feeling huge. I was tiny with my first. And A little bit bigger with my second. I just felt huge with, like, boy just went straight out. And so, that was also uncomfortable. Um, we were like, you know, at this point I was 39 weeks. He was born at 39 and 3. Oh, my daughter was 40 and 4. I don't think I said that so also overdue with her. So also, kind of in my head was like, oh, I'll probably go late. And my brain thinking like, oh, it'll probably be like, 40 and 3. So we got 40 and 5, 40 and 4, 40 and 3.. Or Maybe not. But, you know, like in my brain, I'm just kind of like, that might happen. That'd be cool. Um, so yeah, we're 39 and 3. Husband and I decided to have sex and see how that goes. And it was like, we did. And then I was like, I thought. Maybe I had a trickle,

Kiona: 1:27:05

Mm

Martha: 1:27:06

but it was also, oh, cool thing that my midwife gave me, I got like a little, it's like, an amniometer, I got like basically a q tip with some gunk on it that if I thought my water broke, I could like swirl it in the stuff that I thought was my water and if it turned blue, it meant my water broke. Which is super cool, like, I didn't know that you could do that at home and I was like, this is awesome. But, the trickle, like, I didn't have anywhere that it went. So, I was like, and then it, that was it. And I was like, maybe? I don't know. Went to bed, and then woke up. So this one was, it was 2. 30 with the other one. I said the wrong time, it was 3. 30 with this one. Woke up at 3. 30, and I'm like, I think those are contractions. But maybe not, maybe this is prodromal labor. went to the bathroom, bloody show, And I was like, Okay, definitely contractions. so from the bathroom, I told my husband, like, Okay, I'm in labor. And he's like Okay, what do I do? And I was like Okay, call the midwife. And he's like, Okay. So he calls the midwife. I think we went downstairs. And then he called my mom. So she's on her way. And then I'm like, Okay, this. It's kind of the same thing, Like this isn't terrible. But it's definitely like, picking up. And then it was like, picking up quickly. And then he's like, okay, what do I do? And I was like, okay, now you should probably call, call me, call my doula And he's like, wait, I don't know, have her number. And I was like, yes, you do. Like we're on a group chat together. You have her number. And he is like, I already called that number. And I was like, wait, who did you CALL And he is like, I called So uh. Yeah, so he called my doula and not the midwife.

Kiona: 1:28:53

no!

Martha: 1:28:55

I was like, CALL THE MIDWIFE! So he

Kiona: 1:28:58

Oh no! Hahahaha

Martha: 1:29:03

And then he calls my doula. And then he's like, okay, like, I think, at that point, I think he'd been texting my mom. like she's almost here. and like and then we're going. Also, again, birth center was like less than ten minutes from my house. I guess this is just, where we live. Close to where I want to give birth. So like, my mom comes. And I think, oh so we're like, heading to the car And he, my husband like wanted to go check on my older kids. At this point it's like 3 in the morning and my mom's just like, no, you need to go. like, just, you need to go. And I'm, like, heading to the, car and I feel like I have to throw up. And I was like, oh shit. Like, again, I know too much. Throwin up! That's transition! I was, like, awesome! Great! We need to go! And so I like, get in the car, and I cannot bring myself to sit down. And I'm like, nope, this is what we're doing. So I'm, like, hugging the back of the like passenger seat. I'm feeling, like those waves of nausea. Luckily, I don't know why, but there was like, a Halloween bucket that I think my kids had, like put something in. like, I wasn't the McDonald's one, but it was basically the McDonald's one. and I found it and I was just like, like, like breathing heavily into it And it was, kind of cool because it was like blowing the cold air, like back into me and it made it me feel less like throwing up which was great. I was like, awesome. So we're like, going down. And then, then my husband's just like, where's the Birth Center? I was like, just what? Like, and he'd been there once. But He like, couldn't remember where it was, but, like, I knew, I was sort of giving him directions and then he's, trying to look it up on his phone. He has, like, my phone on his lap with, like, music, and I can't remember. He had something on my phone And something on his phone and he's, like, trying to look it up and he finally finds the directions and we're getting there. And he's at, like, the light before it is where, like, the birth center is. It's, again, like, 3 in the morning, and it's red, and he's just like, screw it, and just, like, turns against the red light, and he's like, I'm just going! We get there! and it's so funny, cause he, like pulls up. my midwife is, like standing outside. They had asked, like kind of, they had three rooms, like which room I thought I would want, you know, if I got a choice, and it was, like the far one. But at that point, I think she's like Nope, you get the one with the door that goes directly into the room. So we pull up, and I can't, just imagine, like, it must be, like, an amazing sight that she's seeing. I'm sure my husband's like wide eyed like panic as he coming in And it's like, my butt like there and that's where we are. I think my doula had got there like a few, like just before we got there. So we go like, into the door. And I have a contraction and there's like this nice chair that's like right by the door and I just like lean over on it and I'm like, nope, this is where we are. this is where we are. I'm just I'm gonna be here Um, they start like filling up the tub. I wasn't super like, I wanted I want a water birth or bust. like, I'm kind of indifferent about water birth and I'm just like nope, I'm here. Uh, I think it was at the chair for a couple contractions and then the midwife was like well, baby doesn't really like this position very well, so why don't we go to the bed and I'll check you just to see like, where we are. And I was like, okay. So like, go on the bed and she like is checking me and I just have this like sinking feeling of dread that she's just gonna be like well you're six and there was just like a pause and I was like oh shit and then she's like okay so like, we're ready you can push you can do whatever you want. I think at some point too when it before I was on when I was on the chair some I think it was the so the so there's two midwives at the practice. The, like, main one, and then the one that has been there slightly less time, um, wound up kind of taking point on my birth. I think the other one maybe had gotten there, I don't know, my eyes were closed Like the whole time, I don't know when anybody got there, I was just there, but I think somebody asked like, if I felt like I needed to push, and I was like maybe, I don't know, um. But yeah, so there's just like that moment of Like I'm you better not say and she's like, okay, you're totally you're complete Like I was like, oh, thank goodness Cuz I'm like, I think at that point like I also I think just it's so unless you have been there It's like everybody's like Oh fast birth is great. Then you're just done and I was like no, it's terrible Because it's all the same thing like you go through all the intensity, but it's just Smushed into a tiny amount of time and it's so intense so fast and it gets really, usually in labor it kind of goes up slowly and you can cut your brain and all the hormones are able to match and kind of Creep up quickly, but with like a fast labor It just it goes from like zero to ten to like a hundred and then your body's like wait what?

Kiona: 1:34:22

Mmhm

Martha: 1:34:23

yeah, I'm really loud because that's all like that's all I could do does just like get through is just singing real loud and out there and I was just thinking it was like if we're not pushing then I'm going to the hospital cuz I'm done like, I'm done But I was definitely complete, and I was like yay. So at that point, I like flipped over on my hands and knees, and then I like, needed to push. And So I was like, pushing, and just,collapsing on this, pillow that I was hugging in between contractions. And then it would like come up, and I would push, And then it was Like, back and forth, like for, I mean, it feels like forever. And I remember feeling. So with my other two I think my second, it was probably there, but it was so fast with this one, I could feel the fetal ejection response, which I didn't with my other two. And I was like, Oh, that's kind of cool. Like, and then also had like the ring of fire, which I didn't experience with my other two either. and I remember thinking like, as I'm pushing. Both feeling like I want to push, but also like, holding back some, just because I think there was just so much, so much happening at once. And so, I was like, man, I can make, like, and there's so much going on, be like, I can make this over faster, but also like, just feeling like that, no, but that's too much! But it was just a really cool and interesting, like, Now, being like, again, knowing all I know, just being like, just really being in it and feeling it and just like going with it. And so yeah, so back and forth, back and forth. And then finally he was born and came out. And so my second was three and a half hours. When we were, she was calculating the stuff, he was two and a half hours, and 45 minutes of it was pushing, and he was a big boy. So, my first was 7 pounds, 14 ounces. my second was eight pounds, two ounces, and he was nine pounds, three ounces. So a nice big boy. And I didn't find out until my appointment the next, when my midwife came to my house the next day, that he also had a hand up by his face. And I was like, that's probably why it maybe took a little bit longer to push. But also like, maybe that's a good thing. Like, I think I'm okay that it was. a little bit of time, and that it was a little bit, I don't know, like more of a process. Cause with my second, Like I pushed twice. like I was barely in the hospital and I pushed twice and it was, it felt like it was over before it began. Like it was intense and crazy and scary that we barely got to the hospital. But I was in some ways grateful that like, we got there and there was time and that kind of was able to get into a groove with the pushing and that it was a process instead of just like, oh, it's done.

Kiona: 1:37:20

Right. Right. Wow. Yeah.

Martha: 1:37:26

I know.

Kiona: 1:37:28

I'm just like, wow, that's so much, and I'm just like, over here feeling it with you because I'm like, oh no! Like, I'm stuck on the fact he like, called the doula, you know?

Martha: 1:37:36

I know. No, so the one midwife that was like the primary on call that night. But it was the, the, One that owns the practice that was like doing all the charting and she was like, Well, when did you first call contractions or feel contractions and going through like kind of the timeline of things? And then I think I was checking something with my husband and she, he's like, she's like, Wait, you called the mom to come get the kids before you called me? And I was like, in his defense, he thought he called you. Or he thought he called the right person.

Kiona: 1:38:11

That's a, that's

Martha: 1:38:12

Oh no, that was in my defense. I thought he called the midwife Sorry, not his defense.

Kiona: 1:38:17

Yeah. I think that that is a good point. But, man, so how was your postpartum with Caspian, like feeding and everything

Martha: 1:38:27

Yeah, it was good. I would say not i mean, not as smooth sailing as my second, so he had, like my midwife found and then I got like one appoint for, uh, craniosacral therapy, which was really good. Cool, like there was somebody that was just offering like free, like a one off free appointment and I was like, ooh, I'm kind of just interested as this because sometimes I refer people to it and I just wanted to like see. So both the midwife and her said that he had like a really high palate. Which can just make feeding sometimes a little funky. Um, and in retrospect, I wonder if my first also had that because I remember with my first and with my third feeling like when I was breastfeeding, that just that initial letdown was painful, like, it just was like, that same weird feeling with both of them. So there was that, but overall it was pretty easy, I knew, I knew what to do, and that was really helpful. So, like, even though, like, that was a little weird, I also was like, okay, it's fine, we'll get through this, and he'll be fine. We also had, so he was a little bit jaundiced, so I didn't have that with either of my other two, because we wound up calling the midwife at some point, but he was Feeding really well, he was peeing really well, he didn't have any of, the like secondary signs, he was just like kind of a little yellow. So when we had gone in for, I think it was the one week appointment that, I had with my midwife. She went ahead And took some blood along with the PKU to do, um, just a test to check out the bilirubin, but she's like, I'm pretty sure, and this is something I never heard of, that he had what's called breast milk jaundice. Which basically is just like, sometimes breastfed babies get yellow, but it's not that, like the billirubin is bad or anything. And when like, the results from the blood test came back, he was totally fine. He just was a little orange. So, Like, didn't have, like, the classical jaundice that you need, like the lights or anything to. But it was a little concerning, but he was fine.

Kiona: 1:40:33

Yeah. Wow. Such, so many like Each experience is so different

Martha: 1:40:38

So different!

Kiona: 1:40:39

Yeah, and that's what I love. that's I truly love that. And I love when I get to interview someone that has different birth experiences. Like, different labors and births because it just, I mean, it just goes into the uniqueness of each

Martha: 1:40:52

Uh,

Kiona: 1:40:52

Mm hmm.

Martha: 1:40:54

especially with my second, like, I had just got it in my mind and I'm like, oh, it'll be about the same. Like, I'll know I'm in labor, I'll, like, have bloody show, and then it'll kind of ramp up. It'll probably be shorter. But, you know, it'll probably be the same, but no, it was really nothing like the first.

Kiona: 1:41:12

I also give it to you because having two precipitous births, like, that, just like you were saying, So there's two things. I commend you for getting to where you needed to be on time, both times.

Martha: 1:41:23

Yes, literally, I think it was, like, the week before I gave birth, a third midwife was joining the practice. She wasn't really, like, full on doing things. Like, so she was there at the clinic with, like, other midwives for, I think two of my appointments. And she was there at the birth. Um, but I just, I'm like, everybody got there this time. So, you know, that's a win.

Kiona: 1:41:45

Yeah, oh my gosh, just imagine if your husband had to like, end up catching your baby or

Martha: 1:41:48

Oh my gosh, I think that would have scarred him for life.

Kiona: 1:41:51

gosh, yeah, absolutely. Um, goodness. So I think that this is a good time to start asking the closing questions. So I have three, so the first question I have is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth, and postpartum?

Martha: 1:42:07

Hmm. I would say, go into things with a balance. Learn the things Learn, like, you know what To expect in labor. Learn like. the phases of stages of labor, Learn like all the things. But don't, and know what you want, but also don't hold that too tightly because man, birth is a wild ride And like, I mean, I had a lot of things that I thought I wanted, but you just, you don't know what it's gonna be like. Whether it's I accidentally had an unmedicated labor, like, that wasn't a hundred percent, like, it wasn't not the plan, but it, also wasn't the plan. And then I did, and I was like, oh, okay, this is what we did. Like, you just, you don't know what it's going to be like. So know all the things. Like you maybe don't want an epidural, but you might get there and things get crazy and are going on forever and you might wind up. Doing it, and this is, something I tell my clients too, and like, the worst time to learn about things is when you're in labor. So, like, at least learn a little bit about like the normal spectrum.

Kiona: 1:43:13

Yeah. I think that's, that's good advice for sure. So, my second question is, what is one resource that I can share with the listeners on your behalf?

Martha: 1:43:24

Oh, there's so many good resources. Um, okay, so Evidence Based Birth is like the hands down best resource ever. Like, so it's a nurse with her PhD that doesn't really nurse anymore, um, because she basically runs and makes this website. So she's like Knows all the things about research and can read all of the like research articles and knows what it means and knows how to evaluate it, which I don't know. I know a lot about birth, but like science journal stuff. It's like a whole nother language. So she and her team basically look at all of the studies on different birthing topics. And then they condense it all in an easy to read article that anybody can understand. And kind of her mission is to let people know what the evidence actually says about different topics. Because in like a hospital or in the real world, people don't always Follow the evidence, or they don't always give you all of the pros and cons of things. And I love just being able to read it in a way that, makes sense. And it kind of, And it also at the bottom always has kind of a conclusion of like you know, what is a reasonable option. And sometimes it's that, you know, So, doing an intervention or not doing an intervention are all reasonable depending on what an individual's goals are. And it just, it's so great. And it's so wonderful to get to under, it makes me feel like I understand science and I'm not a science person.

Kiona: 1:45:05

Yeah, I agree. I think Evidence Based Birth is super awesome. They have a podcast as well, which really, really cool. So, super awesome resource. I have linked to it multiple times in the past on the podcast and will continue to happily link to it as a resource.

Martha: 1:45:19

So good.

Kiona: 1:45:21

Yeah, so my final question to you is, if you could describe your births with one word, what would

Martha: 1:45:27

Oh gosh. Okay. Okay. I think. I feel like I came up with one before and now I forgot it. I think my first, I would say, is challenging. My second would be fast. And my third would be Oh, trying to think of the right word to encompass. I think, in some ways, just serene. Like it, in the moment wasn't serene, but like looking back on it, it just, in some way, it was exactly what I wanted. Like, birth itself was, you know, crazy and did its thing, but for me, it was like, with what happened. It was exactly what I wanted.

Kiona: 1:46:11

hmm. I love all of those words. And I can actually see each of those after listening to your stories. So I love that so much, uh, Martha, I'm super, super excited that you actually shared your stories with me and I am super excited to get this out into the world and hopefully you can get some more clients that listen to this and see what services you're offering and then just do it. You know, I'm super excited about that.

Martha: 1:46:41

And then they can be on your podcast and we'll just go round and round.

Kiona: 1:46:44

Yeah, exactly. Round round. Supporting each other. I love it so much. So thank you so much, martha.

Martha: 1:46:50

Thank you for having me.

Kiona: 1:46:51

Absolutely. As I was interviewing Martha for this episode, it was very clear and apparent that she was so excited to share her stories. And I've really loved hearing the differences between how her birth was in Japan with the language barrier experience. To how her births were here in the United States. I also really love to hear how her own birth experiences drew her into the birth space to be able to support other people. As a birth doula, fertility, coach, and postpartum doula. Martha. Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I truly appreciate it. I already know that so many listeners are going to learn so many things from your experiences. So, thank you so much. And as for you listeners, I hope you were listening with the intention of sharing this episode. And if you don't share this episode, please share another. Tune into all of the other episodes and find one of your favorites and share it with a friend. Like I said before sharing this podcast will help all of these stories be heard by other people so they can relate and learn things about birth as well. And after you share an episode, don't forget to go follow me on Instagram,@birthasweknowitpodcast this is the last episode for the year of 2023. So I hope all of you had amazing holidays. I am excited to say that the very first episode of 2024 that will launch next week is going to be from my husband. I'm finally able to pull him in to share his experiences on our three wonderful children's births. So next week you will be hearing from my husband, Kumar Nessenbaum, on his perspective of the birth of our three kiddos. So stay tuned I promise you it's going to be a great one. All right, bye for now.