49-Carrie Kenner-3 Vaginal Births-Becoming a Birth Doula

In this episode, Carrie shares how giving birth to her very first son at the young age of 19 inspired her to become a birth worker, how her other two births didn’t go as planned, and how her philosophy around how to practice as a birth doula has changed over the years. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Carrie Kenner: https://carriekenner.com/
  1. Becoming a Birth Doula Online Course
• Evidence-Based Birth: https://evidencebasedbirth.com/ 
• Birthing From Within: https://www.birthingfromwithin.com/team 
• Lamaze Childbirth Education: https://www.lamaze.org/birthing-classes 

Definitions:

• Occiput Posterior (OP) Presentation
• Precipitous Birth
• Pudendal Nerve Block 
• B.R.A.I.N. Informed Decision Making Guide

Transcript

Kiona: 0:07

Hello, and welcome to Birth As We Know It. I am your podcast host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, and as a mother of three amazing children with my husband and high school sweetheart by my side. After attending over 130 births, including my own, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me every week as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of the stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive into this episode today, I want to remind you to please share this episode with a friend. And if you feel so inspired to share your own birth story, head over to kionanessenbaum.com and fill out the guest request form. All of the stories that have been shared on this podcast are truly amazing.. And I'm so excited to get some of you on the podcast as well. All right. Let's dive into the episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I am super excited to have on Carrie Kenner, who is the former owner of Big Belly Birth Services, but is currently practicing under CarrieKenner. com, or basically all things Carrie Kenner, and she is the creator of Becoming a Birth Doula, and so she is in the process of writing a book, and we're going to hear more about that. So, hey Carrie, thanks for coming on today.

Carrie: 2:16

Thank you so much for having me, Kiona.

Kiona: 2:18

Yeah, I'm super excited to dive into your own personal birth stories of your kiddos as well as talk about what got you into birth work and where you are today.

Carrie: 2:30

All right. Well, as for many birth professionals, it was my own birth experiences that opened the path for me. I have three sons. My oldest is 43. My next oldest is 41. And then I have a 23 year old. And, so, my oldest son was born in 1980, and I was a teen parent. And, oh my gosh, you know, so, imagine back to 1979 when I was, found out I was pregnant with him. And for whatever reason, well, a combination of things, I was starting to read feminist literature. I was a student of the African diaspora, I was just very interested in the experience of how African Americans got here and I was interested, I kind of always wanted to be a hippie. So, I think those three things led me to this notion as an 18 year old that I didn't have to give birth in the hospital, that I wanted to have a home birth. Women had been doing that since the beginning of time, and that's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be a part of the system. I was a radical,

Kiona: 3:46

Mm. Mm.

Carrie: 3:48

So, but I want you to imagine now, 1979, no internet, barely midwifery laws around the country, but I was in Washington state, where unbeknownst to me at that time, midwifery had just gotten legalized and regulated and there was actually a midwifery school that had started a few years prior. So I was living in a small town, outside of Seattle and I pulled out the phone book. Y'all don't, some of y'all don't even know what a phone book is, but we used to have a phone book and I turned to the doctor's section and started dialing doctor's offices and saying, do you do home births? Do you do home births? Do you do home births? And I would get answers from, Oh my God, no! To, what's that? And one of these phone calls, and I probably made like 15 phone calls, and, and, and keep in mind, again, I'm an 18 year old who's pregnant, I'm single, you know, all the things that don't give you a lot of confidence. So it's really hard hearing those responses, but I was determined. And bless this one nurse or receptionist who said, no, but I heard that there's a clinic of midwives in Seattle. Would you like their number? So yeah, so she gave me this number and I called and I think it was the Odessa Brown Clinic that these which is a wonderful clinic in Seattle that would give office space to this group of midwives in the evening. And so that's where they were holding their clinics and they're like, well, if you're willing to come over here for your prenatal visits, we're willing to come to you in Bremerton where I lived for the birth. So I'm like, cool. So I started seeing them. So I found midwives that were willing to tra travel an hour. Probably by fairy to, to my birth. Um, so, did that. Took Lamaze birth classes. I took them as if they were the bible. if it said, stand on your head and, you know, sing a song, I would do that. I did exactly what I was taught to do because I was 18. I have that, you know, be a good girl kind of mentality, even though it's also a radical rule breaker. and I went into labor at about midnight one night, the night, the two days before my son's due date. And, Called the midwives and you had to call, you had to call an answering service, I think, you know, I mean I don't even know if we had pagers back then, you know, it was just there were no cell phones So when whoever I called and they said well, it's the middle of the night. There's no ferries running We'll send somebody on the first boat in the morning. It's like cool. So I think they got there like at 6 in the morning and I spent the my entire early labor after getting up and throwing up then it just kind of went into a normal labor and And I spent my entire labor laying on my left side with pillows between my legs doing this patterned breathing that I was taught. And when your contractions were this far apart, you breathe like this. And then when they get your pattern, your contractions were closer together, you breathe like that. And when they were closer the other way, you know, like there was all these different patterns that we were taught. And I just was doing them religiously and it was working.

Kiona: 7:06

Mm.

Carrie: 7:07

my midwife showed up and I had five midwives because these were the midwives who had started the legislation so that midwives could become legal and licensed in the state and you had to attend a certain number of births, so they were also the midwifery trainers. And, so the two midwives who were licensed and three students came along. I have some fabulous pictures of all these midwives gathered around, plus both grandmas, my mom and my partner's mom, my best friend, and my partner's little sister. And they're just like, we're all in this one small bedroom in our apartment and they're all crowded around. And, What I remember from that birth is at one point the midwife said, okay, you've got a little lip on your cervix. And to kind of make that go away, you need to turn over to the other side. And it was just like, you might as well told me to fly to the moon. Like that seemed impossible to move because I'd been like not moving. So they encouraged me, like, you know, you're a doula, I'm a doula, you know, we know had like, okay, so the next contraction, here's what we're going to do, you know, so they did that whole thing and I flipped and, you know, flipped over and thought I was going to die and then got settled back in that position. and I think I was just looking at the pictures last night to kind of remind myself, cause we have these fabulous pictures that one of the student midwives took and the note on the Album says at 8 30 a. m. Is when these pictures were being taken. So I think I was starting to push then, or at least I was close to being completely dilated. but there's, you know, so like they got me sitting up when it was time to push. My partner was behind me, the family people were standing in the doorway and, and I pushed and I probably Pushed for like, um, maybe an hour and a half, something like that. And then, and he was born, you know, and they put up the mirror, so I was seeing him crowning and then feeling his head. I sent you that picture of seeing of us feeling his head and we have this like delighted look on our face, Oh my God, this is actually happening. And this incredible picture of the two grandmas when they saw their grandson be born and they're just huge smiles and tears in their eyes. It's this fabulous picture. and at the end of that, I was like, Oh my God, I did that. I had this idea and I got myself prepared. I mean, I found the midwives, I took the classes, I did the things, and I just did that. And at that moment, I felt like I can do anything in this world. I'm 63 now and I still take myself back to that day whenever I question whether I can do something and I was like, no, I did that. I can do anything and it motivated me to, learn how to work on cars. And go to pre med and think about going to medical school, which I didn't, but it just motivated kind of everything in my life. you know, so here's this 19 year old girl given birth at home and, you know, people around me thinking I'm crazy, but also people who know me, trusting me, and, and that circle of midwives. So pretty soon after that, I said, Why doesn't anyone talk about that feeling of empowerment? Why is it all about fear and danger? And it's all scary and shrouded in dark mystery. Why isn't anybody talking about like just how incredibly transformative it was? And that was what I wanted to do. I didn't want people to have home births necessarily, or I probably did want them to have unmedicated births because I think that was part of the, you know, the, the profound empowerment that I felt is that I did something that, you know, was in the, in the culture was not considered what you could do. but I just really wanted people to feel that support and circle that I'd felt from my midwives with my family standing in the second circle, you know, um, and be witnessed. I decided soon after that I wanted to be a midwife but I couldn't do that because I had a new baby, so I decided I would become a childbirth educator so I could start to educate people on those things. And, so probably a year or so after my son was born, I started training to become a, what did we call it at that time? Anyways, some, some kind of certification group for childbirth educators. I was the youngest that they'd ever had in the country. and then I became pregnant with my second son. and so I would take my pregnant self and then eventually my new baby with me to these birth classes. And then I would, you know, be a student, I was a student teacher and I looked like I was 14. These other parents would be like, why is this kid here teaching us? And it's like, I have two kids, you know, and so that was an interesting thing. And so my second son was born when my oldest son was 21 months old. So, we planned again that we were still in Bremerton to have this baby with the same midwives. And so I woke up one morning and my, I think me and my partner, we got into an argument that morning about something and I was starting to feel some contractions, but I was pissed at him, so I wasn't going to tell him. So I let him go off to work without telling him that I was having some contractions because of course, as you know, when you've given birth, you think your next birth is going to be just like it. Okay, now my first birth. was 12 hours from first contraction to baby out, which is pretty swift for a first time birth. So, I'm expecting the same. So I'm expecting I'm having some mild contractions, so it's not going to be until evening that this baby would be born, if this is even it. so, I don't tell my partner I'm having contractions, but, you know, dang, within the next hour, I was still having contractions and, and they, they got to the point where I was like, Oh, shit. Oh shit. I forgot what this feels like. It was like some visceral memory had been buried really deep and it had just been excavated. And I was like, Oh fuck. I remember how this goes. Oh wait, wait, wait. I don't want this. No, no, no, no, no, no. What was I thinking? And within a pretty short period of time, like an hour, I was like, Oh, this might not be. Fake. This might be it. So I called my mom and I said, Hey, can you come over and just be with me and help with my little one? And, and then I called my partner and I said, Hey, I'm having some contractions. And I called the midwives and they're like, we'll get over on the next boat on the ferry. Okay. Um, so one of the things when you have a home birth is you're kind of supposed to have snacks for people who are going to be coming. So the midwives are going to be coming and my mom was going to be there. So I take my little 21 month old and myself, drive us down to the corner store. And while I'm in the grocery store, I'm having contractions. And they're probably, less than ten minutes apart. And so every time I'd have a contraction, I'd stop and I'd pull a can of soup up and pretend I was, like, studying the label as I'm breathing through these contractions. And then I'd put it down, and then it's like, okay, quick, check out, you know, okay, now get in the car, now wait for the next contraction, okay, now drive home. You know, so, they were, they were definitely In a regular pattern and getting closer together so that by the time I got home and thank God my mom was waiting there for me. Get my son in, in the, in the house, get the groceries in the house and I just kind of like set the son and the groceries on the floor and I go in my room and I lay on my left side, which I'd known to do the first time. And I'm laying there and I'm like, oh shit, like if this is, at this point it was maybe two hours in since the first contraction. If this is the first two hours. The next 10 hours I'm going to die. You know, like you're doing labor math, not knowing of course that it was happening really fast. So then my partner gets home and he comes into the room where I'm at and he's like, how are you doing? And I'm like, this is way harder than I remember. And I don't know if I can do it. And I started humming, and I was like, Hmm, hmm, hmm. Hmm, hmm, hmm. Hmm, hmm, hmm. And that catch in my voice started to happen. And I was like, wait a minute, This is, I'm starting to feel pushy, and my partner's there, and, okay, to show you again how old school this is, we would actually boil shoelaces and scissors for a home birth back then. That was part of your instruction sheet from your midwives. So, We had instructed my mom to boil this stuff on the stove. And so my partner is yelling at my mom, hey, bring the stuff that's boiling. And she's like, Oh, well it hasn't boiled for 10 minutes yet. And he's like, I don't care. Just bring the shit. You know? So he's yelling at my mom. My mom comes in the room. My son is in her arms and my older son, and he's crying because people are yelling. And I'm telling my partner. to check to make sure you can see the baby's head because I just, it had been drained, you know, drilled into my head, don't push if you don't know you're completely dilated. Well, we didn't have a way to know that except if we could see the baby's head, I figured it would be a pretty good odds. And he's like, yeah, I see the baby's head. And I'm like, does it have hair? And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, well, what color is it? You know, I just, I needed proof that I wasn't going to push too soon. And so he's like, yeah, he's got hair and I pushed and he was sunny side up, meaning, you know, facing the not typical direction, which usually leads to a longer and more painful birth. Um, his birth was less than three hours from first contraction to out. Midwives were nowhere in sight. And so again, because I was a childbirth educator at this point, I, I kind of knew some things and one of those things was when the placenta comes out, just catch it in a bowl. Don't do anything. Don't clamp, don't cut, don't blah, blah, blah. Put the baby on my chest and keep it warm. And so we did that, you know, it was exciting, but it wasn't scary, but it felt, it was hectic, you know, because you just, you know, the adrenaline. And, I remember my partner called the answering service for the midwives and said, Hey, the baby's here. What do we do? And they patched us into another midwife who just said, yep, every, you know, just here's what to look for and just keep the placenta in the bowl and wait for your midwives to get there. And about an hour after he was born, there's a knock on the door. My mom answers it and it's the midwives are like, how she's doing? She's like, Oh, she's good. Her and the baby are in the room. And they're like, what? Yeah, baby was born like an hour ago. so that was pretty miraculous birth. And we, we continued to call that son a wonder boy because he just came out with his eyes open and he would just sit real quiet and just watch the world with these big eyes all the time. And he was, you know, we joke around that he was in a hurry to get here. Fast forward. I decided to be a midwife, but I can't be a midwife now because now I've got two kids. So I think to myself, well, I should become a doctor because, you know, part of it, my decision to not go to midwifery school is midwifery school was not covered by financial aid. And now I'm a, you know, young mom with two little kids. Don't come from a family with money. so there was no financial aid. and believe me, I looked at the catalogue, I would pour over the catalogue as if it was a fine novel for the midwifery school and pine over wanting to go there, but I just couldn't figure out how to make it work. So I decided, well, I could get financial aid to become a doctor. So that's what I decided to do. And I went through college and did all the pre med sciences and all those things. my second passion is people. So my undergrad degree is actually in sociology and psychology, understanding why people do the things they do. And, but I would do all the pre med sciences. And in my last year of pre med, and I would look around at all the other pre med students. It's like, I don't like these people. I don't want to go to school with them, and I definitely don't want to spend four years. I don't, my heart is not being, being a doctor. So, I, decided to just work. I was working in healthcare administration. I was working my way up in the corporate ladder. I bought a house as a single parent, took care of my sons, and every five years I'd order the midwifery school catalog and think about it. And then, when my oldest son was 19,20, I'd gotten remarried when my sons were 16 and 18, and I'd always wanted to have more kids. And my partner, my new husband, he'd never had kids and he wanted to have kids, so. We got pregnant and I remember, oh, I have grandchildren, three grandchildren who were older than my youngest son. I mean, I have one of those families. So my older sons followed in my footstep and they had their children young as well. So I was a grandma when I was 38. I became a mom for the third time when I was 40. And when our families gathered around and I told them that I was pregnant, my daughter in law was just like, Shut up! And I was like, No, I really am. She was like, Shut up! And I was like, Would you stop telling me to shut up? I really am pregnant. And I'm going to have a child that's younger than your guys child. Um, and I had the same midwives 20 years later.

Kiona: 21:30

Really?

Carrie: 21:31

so that was super special. And, and they were like, Carrie, we remember missing your second birth, and we call third births the wild card. So we don't know if you're gonna have a long ass birth this time, or if it's gonna be super fast again, so you've gotta be prepared for whatever. So, I was going to prenatal yoga with this third pregnancy. And towards the end of that pregnancy, somebody in prenatal yoga class asked, who's getting a doula? And I was like, what's a doula? And they described it, and it's like, oh, that's interesting, because after I gave birth to my first son, my best friend got pregnant, my sister got pregnant, another good friend got pregnant, and any, if anybody was having a baby, they called Carrie to be at their birth. So I'd been to births. I'd been to like 15 births by the time my third son was being born. And so when this person described what that, what a doula was, I was like, wait, I've done that. And that's like better than being a midwife because you don't have all the clinical responsibility, but you get all the like hands on support. And, and I was like, I'm going to look into this. So I was looking into what a doula was. I asked one of my friends to be kind of like a pseudo doula for me. And when I was eight months pregnant, I got laid off from this company I'd been working with for almost 20 years. And they were like, so yeah, we're, we're closing your department, so you're going to get laid off. So, what we're going to do is help relocate you to a new position. I'm like, I'm eight months pregnant and they're like, yeah, yeah, so we'll just help you find some good matches and you can interview and then, you know, and then, and I'm like, and I'm going on four months maternity leave, who's going to hire an eight month pregnant woman and then not see her for four months. And they're like, yeah, well, we'll find something that's like, no, actually you're going to give me a severance package. And, and I'm going to take that package and I'm going to go to doula school and I'm going to become a doula, which is what I did. So after my son was born, uh, and I'll tell you his story in a minute, I did, I went to, doula training and I went and trained to become a birthing from within mentor. So kind of a different approach to childbirth preparation than the kind that I'd taken before. And, and yeah, so that's, that really started my journey into being a birth professional. but in case you're wondering how that third birth went,

Kiona: 24:16

I am. I am.

Carrie: 24:18

I woke up in the morning and also I was really, really connected to my baby during this pregnancy, like really super connected. Like I felt like we talked to each other and I didn't. have that or maybe I didn't have the wherewithal with my first two sons. Plus, I was, you know, much older, much wiser. and my dad had died when I was eight months pregnant, along with getting laid off. So, I was really emotional. It was a, it was a really emotional time and I was really connected to my baby. I would talk to him about what I was going through. And so, We had had my dad's memorial service on a Saturday, on Sunday, you know, I think it was like the wrap up with the family from the service. And on Monday morning I woke up and I said to my son, Okay, anytime you're ready, I'm ready now. And within an hour, I had a contraction. And I was like, okay, you know, like, um, and I had a midwifery appointment that morning. But it wasn't with my normal midwives, it was with their backup midwife. So I go in to see the backup midwife. And she said something to me my due date wasn't like for 10 days to two weeks. And I said, yeah, I kind of feel like baby's going to come pretty soon. She's like, Oh, I don't know why you moms, you know, say those kinds of things to yourself and get yourself all psyched up. And I wanted to say like, you don't know me. You don't know. First of all, my first two kids were all born early. It's just like, Ooh, I, so I was like, I'd gone in wanting to have my cervix checked because I'd been having lots of Braxton Hicks. But I was like, this one was not touching me. So didn't get checked, went home and continue to have mild contractions all day. And so it's like, okay, well, I know what to do. I'm gonna go bake some banana bread. Okay, so bake some banana bread, and I'm kind of having contractions all day that I have to, you know, pay attention to a little bit. And then it's like, okay, well, now I'm gonna make mac and cheese so we have something for dinner. And by four in the afternoon, they were still coming. And so it's like, I better give the midwives a heads up. So I call the midwives and I give them a heads up. And they're like, okay, well, keep us posted. We're on, we're on, you know, high alert now. And, and I called my partner at some point and I said, yeah, I'm having contractions. You might want to come home. So he came home. I think he probably got home around five and oh, you know, there it's, it's amazing how we can talk our things out of the obvious, but you know, over time they were definitely getting closer together and they were definitely getting stronger and I'm breathing. I'm just trying to be so cool. And at one point I was like, okay, I think I maybe need to call the midwives again. So it's like 7pm and I call the midwives. who were all at the midwifery school graduation that night, which means all the midwives, all the student midwives, all the everybodies were at this event, all dressed up for the graduation of that year's midwifery class. And they're like, okay, yeah, we're all here. I've got your chart with me, but why don't you get in the tub and see if it goes away? Because getting in a body of warm water can kind of like, I think of it like diluting the oxytocin that causes the contraction. So I need to get in the water and see if that chills it out. So I get in the water and yeah, sure enough, no contractions for like 20 minutes. Until the killer contraction comes and my water breaks and I stand up and I yell to my husband, call the midwives and tell them to get here now. So I waddle upstairs. And I make it to the toilet where I don't know whether to put my butt on the toilet or my face over the toilet because it's coming out of both ends simultaneously. I am in full blown transition and I'm like, I'm gonna have this baby on the toilet. If I don't get this stuff out of my body and get away from here. So I've got a towel in my lap that I'm vomiting into the toilets catching all this shit. And finally I'm like, okay, I think it's done quick between, you know, like the one minute between contractions, I scuttle into our bedroom and I kneel down by the side of my bed. And I didn't hear when the midwives came in, but at one point I look over and I see. High heeled shoes, black tights, and a dress, and I hear my midwife saying, Carrie? It sounds like you need to push. Why don't you give a little nudge? And I'm like, really? And I do. She's like, okay. The head's out. The student midwife is kneeling behind me and my baby was born less than three hours again after, well actually less than two, forty minutes from the time my water broke when I believed it was really happening. I have not given, I told the midwives, if I had another baby, I'd have the baby and then go into labor. I'd have like a reverse labor because they seem to be coming so fast. Okay. So that was a long tirade. There you go. My three birth stories.

Kiona: 29:29

I love it. I love it all. And I love the similarities between them. I love the differences between them. I absolutely love how you were able to work with the same midwifery team. I think that is absolutely amazing. I love that so much. And I have so many questions about all of the in betweens. You know, because a lot happens between baby one, baby two, and especially with the 20 year gap between baby three. and so, We got a little touch on how it guided you into, birth work, but I'm so curious of how some of the details of your pregnancies went because with your first, it seems like it was smooth sailing, you know, you were, you said you were pregnant at 18, gave birth at 19. that's similar to me. My first, I was pregnant at 18, gave birth at 19 and being that young, I feel like it was easy, you know, I just slept a lot, didn't have another kid to worry about, so was that kind of your mindset as well, just kind of resting?

Carrie: 30:26

Yeah, I think, you know, I've subsequently learned that the, from a biological perspective, the best time to be pregnant and give birth is between the ages of 16 and 20, which is absolutely shunned in our society. I mean, so kind of when I learned that, I, It gave me permission, I already gave myself permission, like I'd wanted to have kids since I was 14, like seriously wanted to have a baby. I waited until I was 18 to get pregnant.

Kiona: 30:59

Mm.

Carrie: 31:01

so the idea of becoming a parent was always there and I knew I could do it. I just didn't know. that birth could really be difficult. I hadn't had much exposure to people in my family or in my community giving birth. So, um, so my, yeah, my pregnancy was great. I loved being pregnant. I loved all three of my pregnancies and my second pregnancy, it was different. So I assumed that meant I was having a girl note. I have three boys because somehow it was different. So I thought, well, that must mean it mean it's a girl and it wasn't, it was a boy with my third pregnancy. It was also different. So I was sure that man, it was a girl, it was a boy. I suck at guessing the sex of a baby. But my pregnancies were all great and I think it's just because I hadn't heard horror stories. Like, my mom never shared stories about her pregnancies not being good. And her births were relatively straightforward even though they were awful during the time of scopalamine and being separated and drugged and she doesn't remember stuff. And yeah, she was she gave birth during that horri horrible time in our history. So, I'm not sure if that answers your question.

Kiona: 32:18

Yeah, no, it does. It totally does. I Would be so curious to have heard what your mom's perspective was on your birth. Did she talk to you about it, like in comparative to hers?

Carrie: 32:33

Yeah. She was always very forthright in sharing her birth story with me and my sister to the level that people at that time could. So she, so she, the story is that she was playing cards with the family because her parents had come into town to help, around the due date. They were playing cards. She started to have contractions after a few hours. You know, my dad takes her to the hospital. She goes into the hospital room. He stays out in the waiting room or whatever. And, I think her labor with me was maybe six hours. So, you know, again, I know now so much about the psychology of birth, the stories that we tell, how they impact us, the, the stories that are in our bodies and our body memory. So we don't have cesareans in our family and we have relatively fast births and we're super fertile. I mean, like you can look back and that's kind of the legacy of birthing that I have. And, you know, so she had the six hour labor. I was born. I think she had said that, because this, I was born in 61, so she said something about her doctor said, you know, we can do what you want, but I don't do natural birth. I said, what the fuck do I, what do you mean I can do what I want, but I can't do if I wanted that, you know, so, that notion of choice. And, I remember her telling the story of she didn't watch when my sister was born. So when she had the opportunity to watch, I guess they offered her a mirror to see when I was being born. She didn't think it would be fair. So she didn't watch. So she didn't look. my sister and I are 13 months apart. she didn't nurse my sister, but she did nurse me. So, that's why I'm smarter than my sister. It's our

Kiona: 34:25

We'll send this episode directly to her

Carrie: 34:27

right, it's our running joke that I got nursed, neener, neener, neener. and, and, and she was going against the grain then. Because the nurse said, you know, you shouldn't nurse your baby, you should feed a formula. And she stole her chocolates. She said, you can't eat these if you're going to nurse. These are the stories that I heard. Um, so, I know that I was born in that time, you know, she told me that she doesn't remember a lot because she was given the drugs that take away your memory as, as well as she was, she knew she was given a pudendal block, which is, they're still available, but they're not used very much where it, it's a nerve that basically feeds the entire vaginal area, and so they give that pushing. So, I mean, when I think back, now that I, again, have learned so much about birth, they would give narcotics that dulled your mind and made you forget, but weren't actual pain blockers until pushing. So, so they would look just like, uh, the thought of it. It's just like they're just struggling in bed on drugs, feeling it on drugs. Until they push and then they block the nerves just for the pushing part.

Kiona: 35:44

That, yeah. I mean, that's a lot in itself because then there's all, of course, there's the entire history of how women were manic and, you know, not able to handle labor at birth. And so they needed. The male doctors to do all these things to make it to where their baby could be born and then the doctors would get all of the praise for all of the things and it's a, it's a history that needs to be told from the perspective of her story. Like we need to go back and, you know, I really, that, that, like for me with this podcast, I really would love to interview older women and older birthers. Because it was so different and it would be so interesting to hear the difference and I asked my grandma if she would, if she would come on here and she was like, me? And I was like, yeah, she was like, Oh baby, I don't know. I don't know. That's a little maybe. And then my dad is like, dad, like, yeah, mom, like, that'd be so fun. And she's like, I don't know. So I'm still trying to convince her. So we'll see.

Carrie: 36:50

Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's the challenge is that era of birthing people, women, was they didn't talk about private stuff. And I think they also didn't talk about the pain, not the physical pain, the emotional pain of what they had been through. There's got to be some deep shame in having birthed and not been aware of what was happening to your body or that you couldn't have helped your baby if you needed to. And, I mean, maybe I'm projecting, but just what I know about people, what I know about people today. You know, I've been doulas to hundreds of families and when people talk about what leads to trauma, it's, Oftentimes what they weren't able to do,

Kiona: 37:39

Uh

Carrie: 37:40

what they weren't allowed to do or how they weren't supported that caused the trauma, not the things that happened to them, the way they were treated during the way things happened to them. So I just think, you know, there's like decades of people who were birthing in inhumane ways and they couldn't do a thing about it. And they were told not to, you know, and, and you didn't, you didn't share those kinds of things.

Kiona: 38:03

Yeah, they're, they were silenced, you know, and I feel like that, I don't think that that's a projection at all. I think it's just kind of what you've heard and things I've even heard just through lived experience and, you know, I'm only 30 and I've heard things like that. So, and it's because I'm actively present in the birth space and I am like itching for it. I want that info. So, but. The person that's not interested or curious at all, like you and I in this space, they're not going to hear those stories, and they're still going to get pregnant, they're still going to be birthers, and it's just, yeah, I don't know, it's so amazing, it's so crazy, it's so different for each individual person, and so, yeah, I think that, I think that every, every, every situation, every story deserves to be heard. I should go, you know where I should go? I should go to a nursing home and talk to people. I should. Maybe I'll make a little bonus season or something.

Carrie: 39:09

Yeah. Yeah. Listening to the elders.

Kiona: 39:12

Yeah, for sure.

Carrie: 39:14

Yeah, because those stories, those stories, are so important because that generation is dying. So my mom just passed away on January 1st, so, or two weeks ago, tomorrow. And I can't, you know, I can't get more in depth from her story. What I will say is that She, oh my God, was my number one fan as a doula. She was so proud and she would go tell everyone, you need to know about doulas. She would meet, she would see pregnant people and she would say, do you know about a doula? She tells me, so she lived in Bremerton. I moved to Seattle. And she would call me and she'd say, I was somewhere and I saw this, met this woman and we got talking about doulas and she said she was a doula and I'm like, oh, do you know my daughter, Carrie Kenner? She's like, oh my God, yes, I know Carrie Canner. My mom would call me all the time because I don't know where she would find people, but she had like a doula radar and she would find all these people and, and she was like, yeah, that's my daughter, da da da. So.

Kiona: 40:19

Your mom sounds a lot like my mom.

Carrie: 40:23

Yeah.

Kiona: 40:23

My mom, if she sees any pregnant person or, you know, she will, any chance she gets, she'll be like, Oh, do you know what a doula is? My daughter's a doula. Oh my gosh. You should totally listen to her podcast. Oh, you're pregnant. Like you should check this out, you know, total biggest fan. And it's just, it's so awesome and amazing to have that because. People learn more about it. People reach out. People have questions and, and if they don't reach out to me, they get that, earworm or that seed is planted of like, what's a doula? You know?

Carrie: 40:56

And then the next time somebody's pregnant, I mean one of the things that my mom said And anybody that she would talk to who was older that she told about doulas, the almost automatic response was, wow, that sounds really cool. I wish I had that. It's like, yeah. So you need, you people who have been through this and know you would have benefited from it, your job is to tell the younger generation, you need to get a doula. You need to have support because this, you know, like it's, it's hard. It's hard birthing in the world today

Kiona: 41:28

It is. I mean, it's always been hard birthing, I would say

Carrie: 41:31

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, Yeah. there's, there's the basic process that is hard, but it's to have that empowerment and be respected and all that is really hard today.

Kiona: 41:42

Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that. And, yeah, that just reminds me of the last week's episode who was a labor and delivery nurse. And her perspective is so, so interesting to hear, because she goes in and just talks about what it's like to, to be a labor and delivery nurse and talks about the limitations that she also has and other nurses have in that space as much as they strongly really want to be able to give you all the things that you need and desire, she's also limited under protocol and she has to get approval from her uppers and they have to get approval from their uppers and it's just like, It's a whole system that's put in place that makes it so challenging. And she herself had said she wishes that there was, that our system was set up that if you're low risk and want to have, like, an unmedicated birth and that's your thing, but you don't want to have a home birth, like, she's like, I wish, even if you did want to have a home birth, let midwives be the primary provider for those people.

Carrie: 42:44

Yeah. The default provider. Mm

Kiona: 42:46

Right, and then let the hospital be the place for all the high risk because one of the most important things she said that stuck out to me was, most of the time in the hospital it's life or death. And so if you're wanting to have something to individualize your birth, but the person down the hall is hemorrhaging or having an emergency cesarean, you're not going to get the care in that space that's individualized to your wants and needs at that time because there's someone else down the hall that has priority.

Carrie: 43:17

hmm.

Kiona: 43:18

And so I think that that's so important to kind of put into perspective and, you know, just to consider and think about. And that's why I think it's super important to talk about, birthplace options. Like where you're at, who, what you want, what your true expectations are, and what you want to get out of your birth team. And that's like I am not against hospitals by any means, you know, so, just doing the research, which is really hard, and there's a ton out there.

Carrie: 43:48

there. is, yeah, one of the things that I am working on my, so I've got one book that is done and it's getting published this year, and that is my birth doula training. It is now in a book. So it's a whole new accessible way to get trained as a doula for people who aren't able to go to A, you know, multiple days long, 40 hour long, whatever doula training or can't afford it. Um, but my next project is to do a history of birth, herstory of birth. and what the hell happened? Like, how did, how did we get in this mess? and there's, and that book has been written before. I mean, there's a number of books on that, but I want to do it, like, I'm always the kind. So, as I mentioned, my mom just passed away, and so I'm dealing with all the agencies now. The government agencies, social security, the federal government retirees, the banks, and all that kind of stuff. And it is, it's so awful,

Kiona: 44:49

Mm.

Carrie: 44:50

Because you can't find the information, and you know, each phone call to social security, you're on hold for an hour or two. To have somebody that maybe doesn't know, or doesn't know the right answer, or doesn't give a shit in that moment, I mean, we're all human, I get that. But it's like, why isn't this written down somewhere? it should not be this hard. And These systems that are in place, it's like people would say, well, I've been doing this for 20 years. And it's like, then why the fuck haven't you fixed it? Like, how could you work in a system for 20 years? I am not the first person in grief calling you crying because you're making this so hard. And you're not telling me the information I need to know. Why haven't you made it better? So I'm all about, you see a system that's messed up, you change it. So, one of my favorite books was How to Be an Anti Racist and I want to write the What Happened to Birth and How to Fix It version, you know, the, the How to Be an Anti Systemic Birth er person. and so, yeah, that's my next project. And I can't wait to get started and give people, like, here's what you can do to fix it. Whether you're a parent, whether you're working in the system, whether you're a midwife, whether you're an advocate for families, there's things that we could be doing to make it better. And hopefully over time, completely up end of the system.

Kiona: 46:16

Yeah. And I think that book is absolutely needed. Like of course there are other books that are out there that are hitting the nail on the head in other areas, but just like this podcast, there are so many birth story podcasts out there. There are so many birth related podcasts out there. And I think one thing that's super important for all of the listeners to hear is the more perspectives that you can get, the better. And that's both, through education, through books and literature. That's through stories that you're verbally hearing, whether that's from family, friends, podcasts, whatever. The more perspectives you can get, the better. And you, as the individual, get to decide what sticks with you. What you can hold, and it should not be a competitive space. It should be an educational Projected space, like whatever comes out is just meant for you to hear and take and you get to decide as that person. Your time of research as an individual who is interested in these things is where your foundation of your agency comes in. Cause you're making all the decisions. You're, you're the one that gets to decide. So yeah, I think that's awesome that you're writing that book. And, is the first book that you're writing called becoming a doula

Carrie: 47:33

Mm hmm. Becoming a birth doula. Yeah, that's the one that will be coming out. It's, it's been written for, I started it during the pandemic like everyone else did starting a book, but,

Kiona: 47:43

Awesome. Yeah. And I anticipate to hear that your second book will also take many years cause it takes time to get all the info.

Carrie: 47:51

Mm hmm.

Kiona: 47:52

So let's go ahead and talk a little bit more of your perspective as a birth worker on some births if you're cool with navigating that way.

Carrie: 48:02

Mm hmm.

Kiona: 48:03

The first thing that comes to mind is I know that you have been to many, many, many, many births and I would love to hear maybe one of the stories or just one of the details of someone's birth that stuck with you. Which was the most empowering birth that you've ever witnessed?

Carrie: 48:22

Oh, my goodness. Um, You know, I think empowerment comes sometimes in just little mini moments This one couple that's standing out to me. I remember, normally I would do an interview with somebody at a coffee shop or something, but they were having a prenatal visit at, the local medical, UW Medical Center. And they're like, can, can we meet in the lobby for our interview? And it's like, okay, seems a little bit impersonal, but we met there. One of the things they asked is, we're Christian, will you pray with us? And I said, yeah, but I need you to know that I will not be praying to the same God. I'm not Christian. That's not my belief system. I love prayer. I love praying. And if you're comfortable with that, if you're okay with that, and you wanna pray during your birth, absolutely. I would love to pray with you. And I loved that they felt enough power in their own faith and trusted me with mine that they said yes. You know? So they hired me. And then during their birth, it was one of those classic things where they'd been having contractions for a couple of hours, but their cervix hadn't changed, you know, in that, you know, around six centimeter thing. And the nurse said, well, I think we should rupture your membranes. And these folks wanted an unmedicated birth. And at first they were like, well, why, you know, they didn't want interventions. And they were like, well, why do you want to rupture our membranes and, like, do this intervention? And I said, well, let's listen to what they have to say. The nurse was like, I know the kind of birth you want and I want to help you have that kind of birth. And you're doing great, but you've been at it for a while. So we can do nothing. But if we do nothing for a long time and you keep having contractions, you're kind of spinning your wheels, you might run out of steam and it'll be harder for you to finish and have the birth that you want. So I think that if we rupture your membrane, you know it'll bring the baby's head down, it'll press on the cervix more, it might help with dilation and hopefully get you through your labor sooner. And I taught my clients the brain questions, benefits, risks, alternatives, intuition, and doing nothing or not now. And so, uh, they, they use those, you know, as we practiced in our prenatal visits. So they're asking those questions and they find out that the alternatives are, position changes, walking, waiting, rupturing membranes, pitocin. There's other things that could get their labor maybe stronger. And so my client said, you know, I want to wait. I want to wait an hour. I think I'm going to walk during that time and then we'll reassess. And so that's what we did. We walked the halls for an hour, nurse checked their cervix and nothing had changed. And she's like, okay, I'm ready for you to rupture my membranes now. So it was just that simple act of saying, I need a little more time. I need to try this other thing. before I'm ready to embrace something that wasn't on my plan, but when she did say yes, she was embracing it wholeheartedly. and so I just remember I felt like that woman was empowered to choose somebody who didn't share her faith. She, she would, didn't feel like her faith was gonna get watered down by mine. She had her voice. She knew how to ask questions. She knew how to say, I need a little more time, and then she knew how to, leave her plan a little bit to do something that that moment required. So it's nothing big huge, you know, and of course, anybody pushing a baby out, that's some pretty empowering shit. So,

Kiona: 51:49

It's such an amazing experience to watch from the sidelines. When you see someone In their primal, you know, just seeing someone in their primal state and for me, this was, this is kind of a part where I, I wonder how people that have not birthed themselves feel as a doula. Cause there's a lot of doulas out there that are not parents themselves or have not had the opportunity to birth or, be pregnant, but it's interesting because when I see birthers, birthing people in that primal state, I'm like, yeah, I remember that. Oh, I remember that feeling. And like, a lot of the time I'm over here like grunting and pushing with them.

Carrie: 52:31

Yep.

Kiona: 52:32

To just, you know, like give them that little bit of extra oomph or whatever. Not that like me pushing is helping them at all.

Carrie: 52:41

Solidarity.

Kiona: 52:42

Yeah, that connection. So yeah, I love that. Do you remember at all if her actually making that decision changed the course of her labor?

Carrie: 52:54

I think it did. I know she had her baby without medication like she wanted to, and I remember, yeah, it wasn't like a 48 hour slog or anything, so yeah. I have all my records I was clearing out my house years ago, and it's like, I cannot throw these away. My kids are going to have to throw them away after

Kiona: 53:15

Yeah. Or keep them And save them.

Carrie: 53:17

Yeah, they're all paper. Paper files. Mm hmm.

Kiona: 53:20

Yeah, I've, I've had, you know, cause we are in the, the electronic records, Era, I guess, but I intentionally asked my midwives, can you print that out for me? I would love to have that. Can I, at least the labor, you know, um, like print that out for me. I love it. And every single time one of my kids birthdays come around, I go through and I read it and I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember that. Or I remember it happening this way and it's interesting to see their way and and that's how come I think that as. A person who is in charge of the chart, whether you're a nurse or whatever, put in the little details that are unique to that person. Say, you know, partner kissed on the forehead or giving dad a hug or, you know, laughed at this joke. Simple things because those little details bring out memories and feelings for the laboring and birthing person as they look back at that. I remember with my Youngest daughter's birth. I remember having the memory of hugging my dad before I got in the birth tub and my midwife charted that and I was like, oh, that was a big moment to me. And the fact that she saw that as a big moment too, just made me realize I did choose the right person. You know, like this person could see that that was important to me and decided hugging dad before getting in tub. And I was like, oh yes.'cause you feel seen and you feel heard and valued and. Yeah, it was great. one thing that I did want to talk to you about is I did just ask you about your most empowering birth, but as a birth doula, what is the most challenging birth that you've had to come up against?

Carrie: 54:58

Uh, I know it well. I've written about it a lot. and it was, the context and the specifics of this birth. So you had mentioned earlier, you know, when somebody is birthing in a hospital and you're having your low risk and you're staying low risk and other people in the hospital might be having bigger things happen, it can take away from your experience. so I had clients that were planning a birth in the hospital, again wanted an unmedicated birth, low to no intervention. My best friend's baby had died the day before. I was in no shape to go to a birth. And so when she called and said she was having contractions, I called my backup doula who was in the hospital having emergency surgery. And I was like, are you kidding me? And I made that decision at the time and it doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong, that it would be easier for me to just go to this birth and to find another backup doula and have to explain the context. Because it was just like, there's so much emotional labor that goes into talking about my friend's birth and baby that had just died. And you know, it was just, I'm just going to go to the birth. And Thank goodness their labor was very straightforward. it was very, that was a very empowering birth. She's one person who I think about when she found her voice cause she actually said, I think I found my voice and I like it cause she was roaring during transition. and so it's time for her to push. The nurse said you have to get out of the tub. So she's on the bed. This new doctor came in, they hadn't met before. It was actually really cool. But the nurse, the nurse was somebody who was acting really nice to me, but you know, sometimes you get somebody you're working with it, but your, your gut says, don't trust this person for whatever reason. and I was right, as you'll see in the story unfolds. So the nurse is telling her to push, you know, kind of using that as if she had a, an epidural and saying, you know, hold your breath, count to 10, blah, blah, blah, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's like, she's not medic. I mean, she's, yeah, she, she can push as she feels, but the doctor was saying one thing. Her partner is kind of a nervous person. The nurse is telling her one thing, and then this nurse comes in, other nurse comes in from outside in the hallway and is talking across the room to the doctor, hey doctor there's something going on in room whatever, and how long are you going to be here? And the doctor said, well, it's going kind of fast. And she's like, well, you know, this person, blah, blah, blah, and he's just like, you're going to need to call the other doctor on call. And she was like, but all this conversation is happening across her room while my client is like not able to get into the groove of pushing and she's hearing these voices and she, so she says, there's too many voices. I don't know who to listen to. Can you tell everyone to be quiet? And she's asking me to tell everyone to be quiet. So this was, I don't know what year it was, but it was definitely in the era where doulas were not supposed to kind of tell medical staff what to do. It was kind of a thing that I followed. and her partner looks at me like with pleading eyes, can you please tell them to be quiet? So I kind of just turned to the room and I said, shh. Okay. Now you turn back to my client and we're trying to, you know, get her. And she's like, there's, you know, she kept saying there's still too many voices. And I'm like, just listen to the doctor. And I tried to be quiet and I hope that the nurse telling her how to push would shut up. and, she never really kind of gotten to her groove, but her baby was born pretty fast. Okay. So an hour later, everything settled down. She's nursing her baby. And the door opens and in comes that nurse, that second nurse who would come and was talking across the room and she points to me and she said, you come with me and inside I'm like, uh oh, and my clients are like is something wrong. And I'm like, no, I'm sure everything's just fine. You know, I'll be right back, you know, so I go and she's like marching down the hall with me. Having to follow her marches me through the nurse's station into this back room where our labor nurse is waiting with hands on hip. And this second nurse turns to me and she goes, you do not shush me. Okay.

Kiona: 59:14

Wow.

Carrie: 59:15

And I said, sorry, I shushed you. My client was having a really hard time focusing. There was a lot going on in her birthing room. And she asked me to, you know, like I was just doing what she asked. And she's like, well, we had a medical emergency going on and blah, blah, blah. And I so wanted to say. That wasn't your room. That was my client's birthing space and you burst into it because I get that somebody's having an issue down the hall, but there's five other ways I can teach you how to do that, but you didn't burst into my client's sacred space.

Kiona: 59:50

Mm hmm.

Carrie: 59:51

And, you know, so it was just like that. They just kind of kept on berating me. The nurse that was really nice to me, but I knew something was up. She was, you know, she kind of like turned on her heels to me. I don't know how long you've been doing this, but I've been a labor and delivery nurse for 20 years. And I actually went to midwifery school because I wanted to be a midwife. I wanted to do that kind of hands on support that you're doing. And I was just like, Oh, she's jealous.

Kiona: 1:00:19

Mm.

Carrie: 1:00:20

That's what's, that's why I was getting these weird vibes is. It's kind of like you picked your path, and I picked mine. My path involves being on call all the goddamn time You know like I'm always on call. I don't have a shift I don't make a guaranteed income blah blah blah And it's like I picked my path you picked yours like don't resent me because I'm doing the things that you wanted to do And it was just like one of these, and it was, it was so gross. And then to go back into my client's room and I'm like, is everything okay? And I'm like, yeah, everything's fine. You know, with that smile on my face, I would do things so differently now. Now I would be much more of an advocate for my clients. And I kind of like, I don't care if I get kicked out of a room, I'm also not an active doula anymore, but I, I did, I did go to a birth last summer and it was like, I'm prepared to talk back because this has gone on too long, you know, we thought that having doulas in this space was going to empower people to speak for themselves and we know that there's too much systemic oppression, whether it's bigger outside the hospital systems, but within the hospital system, there's too much damn oppression going on. And it, people have to be called on it. It's like I was saying with, you know, the social security workers, it's like if you've been working here for 20 years and you haven't changed this, what's the point?

Kiona: 1:01:37

Mm

Carrie: 1:01:37

I get that your job sucks. I get it. So you especially should be changing it. I'll help you.

Kiona: 1:01:45

Yeah. Let's be a team on this change, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think that's the hardest thing is, even in, Kelly Hoff's episode, she had mentioned her input and perspective on doulas. I asked her what she thought of doulas and she said, I love a doula that is prepared for hospital birth. But then she said she didn't appreciate the doulas that would come in and think that their patient or their client It's like basically be the person to say that this is the time and place to try to change the system. Right. And like to, to advocate and like make it all a huff. And it was such an interesting perspective because by no means do I like invalidate that experience for her because that is true. Like she goes and she gets probably the brunt end of a lot of doulas that are like, hell no, you're not doing that to my client, you know? And then she goes into talk about the perspective of like. How providers and nurses sometimes do and make specific decisions because they've experienced something bad or hard or, you know, everybody. And the reason why I'm bringing this up at all is because It is important for every single one of us as birthers, birth supporters, nurses, practitioners, doctors, whatever, to remember that we are all human and we walk into a birth space with our lived experiences. And so we have to do our best to be open minded about hearing the other person's side, as well as coming in with our lived experience without projecting it onto the person we're caring for. And I also went on in that episode, you guys should listen to it, whoever's listening to this one, because it's a really good one and it's such an interesting experience. But, I'll just quickly touch on the fact that I was like, you know, I was one of those doulas that would go into that room and advocate for my client, especially since usually, I would say probably 99 percent of the time, That is the nurse's first time meeting that client, or that patient, and I have either worked with this client multiple times, like I'm supporting them for multiple births, or, you know, I knew this client for many, many years, like 13 years was the story I used, and I knew what she needed and what she wanted, and I knew what would work and what wouldn't, and we had discussions about it and all that stuff, so. Everybody has experiences that they bring into a space, and it's so important to try our best as providers to, one, not make this birth about us, because it is the birthing person's birth, and two, to find the sweet spot to be able to communicate professionally and ethically in the space of our clients birth. So, yeah, I think that's super, super awesome and amazing that you have lived through so many experiences. How many births have you been to?

Carrie: 1:04:34

I stopped counting at 350, which was shortly before I retired from attending births.

Kiona: 1:04:43

isn't it just so crazy how different each birth is? It's so

Carrie: 1:04:48

Yes. Kind of piggybacking on what you just said. It's like if if a nurse recognizes Oh, this doula knows this person, they've spent a number of hours a number of months number of years, like, I'm going to use what they know, just like I want to use what the nurse knows, that's that teamwork thing. But the and I know that the hospitals are not set up like that room is your sacred space. But I think that is what needs to change, especially for people who want that kind of experience. And maybe we're planning to birth out of the hospital, but for medical complications, whatever reasons they're in the hospital and they want that sacred space to hear the overhead speaker and people coming in and out of your room, like you don't have any agency over that space you're in. That's awful. That's wrong. I have a number of friends who are nurses and I've heard that perspective, I totally appreciate that, but if you understand that I'm not, I'm not saying things for my client because this is what I want, like when that client said would you please tell them to be quiet, I would have never said shh to a room, even if they were driving me crazy, but my client asked me to, And why didn't the nurse take it upon herself to honor that? You know, left me to do it so that I could get berated. Oh,

Kiona: 1:06:08

yeah, and, but I mean, of course, everything is put in place for a reason, and the ways that they have things in the hospitals is for a reason because of those life and death situations. So when there are those people that are coming in wanting that sacred space, it's so important for The people who are supporting people in that space to realize that there's only so much that they can control. And that's why I really loved when Kelly had mentioned that midwife should be the default provider for low risk birthers, and then for the hospital to kind of be for the emergent or high risk or people that really need to be watched and cared for throughout every step of the way, because there's multiple people on the floor and all those things. So yeah, it's so interesting. I do want to touch back on how, when you were saying that. In the story that you were just mentioning with the nurses berating you, that you were on call all the time, and you chose your path, so I'm so interested in what your input is on the term burnout, because you have been a birth worker for many, many years, and have since retired as a birth doula, so I'd love to hear your relation to that term.

Carrie: 1:07:20

Yeah. I absolutely got to a place of burnout probably a couple of times. and I told myself that if I ever stopped crying when a baby came out, because that's something I always did, because it always touched me emotionally, if I ever stopped, that meant I was done. And there was a birth when I didn't cry, and I was just like, oh shit, you so for me, not everybody has to cry at a birth, I've even heard some people say that's unprofessional. And it's like, what, it's unprofessional to be a human and let people know that you are as touched by their Monumental experience as they are. So,

Kiona: 1:07:53

Right.

Carrie: 1:07:54

and what happened for me? Well, a couple of things is I got older, it became more and more difficult to recover from a long birth. I fried my adrenals by not sleeping, you know, that irregular sleep schedule. developed an autoimmune disorder and my marriage crumbled, you know, so, and it was actually my oldest son who we were, we had a Thanksgiving dinner and then There was kind of like a family argument and then I got called by a client and I left and I'm the matriarch of my family and the next day my son was like we needed you to be there and you left and he's like I'm tired of you leaving for other families, you give everybody else more than you give your family, which he later said that's not true, but you know, and the experience for my family was I'm always leaving. Gone, gone, gone. And my family had been my, they're still like my, besides my mom, my biggest supporters, so proud of me, you know, all the years I was a doula, they know the impact of doula is they get all that, but they bore the brunt of it. And so there came a point when I was a big advocate for the doula model where you are a one doula with one client. So, so that your client. knows, unless there's an emergency, exactly who their doula is going to be like because I used to talk about, I'm the one person you know is going to be there. If you're working with midwives, most midwives work in a pair, you don't know which one's going to be there. If you're working with a doctor, you don't know which doctor. You're not going to know the nurse in advance. I can guarantee you, that unless I have an emergency, that you're going to know who your doula is. And I think that is a really important aspect of being a doula, but I also saw, see the toll that it takes. I've trained doulas for like 16 years and, I started to teach around have a partnership or be a part of a collective or like you don't have to do it this way. I think there's great value in it and if you want to do it this way, that's great. But what I was noticing is when I became a doula, most people who are becoming a doula were white women in their thirties who already had kids. And when I was done being a doula trainer, at least when the pandemic happened, so I stopped, the majority of my students were people of color who were in their 20s and didn't have kids. And I loved seeing that shift. It was shaken up a lot of things that needed to be shaken up. But the younger women were like, Oh, hell no. I'm not going to be on call 24/7. I'm not going to miss having a social life. I don't have a family yet. I want to meet someone and get partnered. And That ain't gonna happen if I'm on call all the time. And they were really good teachers to me to say, we have to figure out a way to do this differently. so what I do know that sustained me for all those years is that I had a massage twice a month. I had acupuncture the other two weeks of the month. So every week I was having some kind of body work. I was getting chiropractic care weekly, if not twice a week. I had my rituals and routines that I would do before going to a birth, after a birth ended, when I came home. I had an amazing support community of doulas in the birth community. And a network of people, you know, I mean, I was well established. That's what kept me going. What I worry a bit that I see now in doula trainings and in doula kind of coaching programs is such a tendency to help people not be on call. And I get it, but it's also like, if you're not going to births, the first thing is you're not helping families in the way that families need help. So that concerns me if everybody's trying to not go to births to not be on call, like I don't know quite how to balance that. But it's like, don't try to skip the step of going to births and really be, really have all that value as a doula because that is where you learn in your blood and bones about birth and it's where you feel the system at play thats stepping into the fire, you know, and you get remade, I got remade as a person being a doula. I got remade when I gave birth and I got remade as a doula because you're in that energy. You're seeing the depth of the human soul and the human resilience. You're seeing lots of, dysfunction, families that you serve that you're like, Oh, boy, I'm sorry, baby, you got some doozies of parents, you know, just like, you know, and you see the The medical system, even how it's impacted midwifery, you know, midwives can't, don't practice like they did when, when I was giving birth in 1980. Those things that like, you know, there's that lived knowledge that you talk about and mine is so vast because of going to 350 plus births

Kiona: 1:13:08

hm.

Carrie: 1:13:08

and I've trained thousands of doulas and they, bring back their stories, so I keep feeling like I go into birds because I mean I now hear the stories and I don't have to be on call anymore.

Kiona: 1:13:17

Right, right. I agree with you with how it's so strange. Cause I'm also seeing it like on social media and stuff. Like, are you a doula and don't want to be on call? Here's how. And I'm like, how? There's no how to that. Like, no. For me, I feel when you sign up to be a birth worker. On call comes with the life that you're signing up for, because I understand that a lot of people get into birth work because of their own personal birth experiences, which makes it hard to be on call, because you have children of your own now, and I 100 percent get that. You're worried about missing out on experiences that are important to you, like birthdays, holidays, and being there in an emergency for your kiddos. Yes, all of those things coexist while being a birth worker. And I also agree with you with the fact that you just said, Going to births changes you. You get remade as a birth doula. And every single birth I go to, and now every single birth I hear as a podcast host, changes me in a way that I'm like, Oh my gosh! It widens my curiosity even further to want to learn more and to hear more, and just like you said now, all of those thousands of doula's that you've trained, you get to come back and hear the stories, and you're like Oh, that's interesting. I wonder why they made that decision. Or, oh, that's so cool. And, you know, how did that happen? And hearing that is just so cool. Because as a birth worker now, who is not actively in the birth space, I get that too, through this podcast of hearing stories and it's just so cool and it's so important. And I feel like there's so much true value about physically being in the birth space and living that on call life because that's what a doula is.

Carrie: 1:15:07

I think there can be a lot of magic in partnerships where people share a call schedule, so you're not maybe on call 24 7, maybe you're on call 24 5, or 24 3, or 12 7. there's different ways to mix it up. And I remember I did explore some partnership, arrangements towards the end of my career. And I remember, some people I think didn't hire us because they wanted to know who, they wanted the one doula that they knew was going to be there. But other clients would say, oh my god, of course, how could you, it was, it seemed impossible to them that one person would be on call 24 7. So, but I also think you need to, it's hard, I often, when I'm training doulas, I say, you know, it can be hard to start as a partnership because you don't know what the whole picture looks like. If you go in there to do half, half the picture, try to at least go to some births where it's, it's all you, you know, both all you on call and all you at the birth and all you with the prenatals and the postpartums. to really get what that whole process feels like because then you'll know what's not happening at the parts you're not at and you know how to get that information filled in. So.

Kiona: 1:16:26

I agree with that because you have to find out how you are as a doula before you go and offer it in a partnership because, for example, I was in a partnership with Mercedes Snyder, but I was also a birth doula for a couple of years before we had that partnership. And that's how we knew our partnership worked. Because we were well together, we cared for people and clients similarly, and our clients that interviewed us saw that as well. And so that's why they were like, okay, this is the kind of doula I want. Both of you fit that realm, so I don't mind. who ends up at the birth, and of course people could have a preference and even me as a doula, I'm like, oh man, I really wanted to go to that birth. They were so

Carrie: 1:17:07

Yes. Yep. Yep. That's the other thing is that there's some downsides for the doulas as well.

Kiona: 1:17:13

Mm hmm. Yeah, but I would agree with that and say, as a fresh new doula, go to some births on your own. Maybe try, this might be extreme for some, but maybe try to be a doula for a year on your own to get. an understanding of how you are as a doula and to be able to process and do research and stuff after the births that you attend. And even, even if that means you just go to three or four births in your first year, figure out how that is for you. And then talk to other doulas, do research, have your support network and community. And then partnerships are great. Partnerships are really great. And even if that means that you join a collective, right, and you're on call. It makes it easier, for example, the Swedish doula program was easy for me in the beginning of my doula career because they found the clients for me, and I told them my schedule, they found them for me, and then I was still the singular support person for that client. But, they also had a plethora of people who could be used as backup.

Carrie: 1:18:11

hmm.

Kiona: 1:18:12

And they could read their profiles and everything like that. And then you as their doula can talk about, well, I usually lean on this person. And so it's easier for them to look into them and all that stuff on their own. so yeah, many, many pros and cons to every decision that you make as a birth worker and a birthing person.

Carrie: 1:18:28

hmm.

Kiona: 1:18:30

So yes, Carrie, I am so thankful that you came on. I just have a few final closing questions for you and then we'll call it done.

Carrie: 1:18:38

All right.

Kiona: 1:18:39

so as a birthing person yourself, what is one word that you would use to describe each of your births?

Carrie: 1:18:49

Empowering. Can't get away. I've tried to think of something more, not obvious, but.

Kiona: 1:18:57

No, I love it. I think that that's great because I hear that in your story. I hear how it gave you so much strength to continue to make decisions that were challenging to make, but you pushed through and were motivated through that. So. I love that. I think that's great. Now let's flip to the birth worker side. What is one word, and it could be the same word, I don't know. What is one word that you would use to describe your profession as a birth worker?

Carrie: 1:19:26

Mm hmm. Very different word. Humbling.

Kiona: 1:19:29

Mmm, oh yeah.

Carrie: 1:19:31

Oh Yeah.

Kiona: 1:19:32

Oh yeah.

Carrie: 1:19:32

Anytime I thought I knew, now, now, now I know everything. I would get my ass kicked. It was, it was kind of like, oh, no, I shouldn't have said those words. Humbling in the best way.

Kiona: 1:19:49

And I love that because a lot of people can go through experiences and find it as defeating or basically not look at it as a humbling experience, but a negative way. You know, like, Oh man, I'm not enough or something like that. But to know that it's humbling to be like, yeah, I got more work to do

Carrie: 1:20:13

I love being in the space of mystery. Like many people, it's like, Ooh, I don't want to go anywhere where I don't know things. And I love that. Show me what I don't know. So I would always be thrilled when I would learn something new or be like, I did not expect that. Or, you know, just brought to my knees by somebody's. whatever the situation was. I love that stuff. That would keep me going.

Kiona: 1:20:37

Yeah, I love that too. I think the reason why I love it is because there is so much unknown, you know, and then you get taught through the vulnerability of being open and guided through literally the universe as it falls into place. So I love that, that I can relate to that as well. so I feel like your resource could be similar for both, but I want to ask you again from both perspectives. As a birthing person, what is one resource that you utilize that you would advise to share with people that are currently pregnant?

Carrie: 1:21:09

Well, I love books. Love, love, love books. I read, I love reading and I know what books means today is very different from what it meant when I was learning about birth. but I would ask people about their favorite books. But a really important question is why did you like that book? Because it might not be what you're looking for. but the thing about books is that you have time to digest the information in your own way. You could form your own mental images, you know, like there's so many like online trainings where people are talking and they're showing you things and that's filling your mind's eye with their images so you don't get to fill them with your own. So, I really respect that different people need and want different things. But I'll tell you that probably my favorite book was Birthing from Within from Pam England, and then she has a new one out, which is, Ancient Map to Modern Birth.

Kiona: 1:22:10

I also like that book. I read that book when I was pregnant with my second and I liked it and I didn't connect to it as much as I thought I would but it was very helpful to give me the psychological processing of how to prep and how to like be within myself which is why it's called birthing from within but to really think about how you as an individual will handle birth. The process and everything. So that's a very good resource. as a birth worker, what is one resource that you would like to offer to the listeners?

Carrie: 1:22:41

Well, one resource that I rely on a lot is evidence based birth, because here we've got professionals, researcher, statistician who's looking at all things birth and, kind of analyzing the research that makes it digestible to the average person out there. So I think that's just an amazing resource. I do a weekly vlog. And it's not always about birth, but it, I always relate it to birth somehow, and so if, you know, it's just a way for me to, it's like my version of a podcast, only it's a video blog and a written blog as well. So if people want to hear more about what I have to say about things, because I'm opinionated and outspoken, you can check that out.

Kiona: 1:23:25

What's it called and where can they find it?

Carrie: 1:23:27

it doesn't have a name to it, it's on YouTube, but I can give you my channel and, and you can sign up to be a subscriber.

Kiona: 1:23:35

Cool.

Carrie: 1:23:36

Yeah. I don't, I should probably come. I did recently think about, Oh, I should have a name for this right now. It's just called the weekly vlog with Carrie Kenner And if for people out there who are interested in becoming a doula, I have not only my book coming out, but I have an online. birth doula training. It's the entire thing that I used to do in person for over 40 hours. And it now has all of that plus more because we're not limited by hours when it's online course. So I have that which is designed to be both a really affordable option as well as people, you know, obviously can take it from anywhere anytime they want to. And then I still do doula coaching and I have a program called jumpstart your doula career. and that's to help people once they've trained as a doula, get their business started, grow their business, have a thriving business where we're thinking of all the things about burnout and call schedules and partnerships because I also work as a copywriter and a marketing consultant, and so all the marketing things and how to talk about your business is built in there to help people be really successful because the world needs more doulas.

Kiona: 1:24:47

Yes, they do. We do. I think that's awesome. And I was also one of your attendees of your birth doula training. I got certified through Big Belly Services. And, It was actually my second doula training because I got my first doula training at the Simpkins Center at Bastyr University, but I didn't connect strongly enough, through the certification process to go through with the certification through DONA International, and so I needed to find something else that I felt sat better with me and connected better with me and also had, like social justice involved in the process of actually advocating strongly for people of color and things. And I felt like your training had that intertwined in it enough for me to feel comfortable and be like, yeah, I can get certified through this.

Carrie: 1:25:33

hmm. Yep. You were my first. You're the first person I certified through Big Belly Services.

Kiona: 1:25:38

really? Oh, I didn't know that. That's so cool.

Carrie: 1:25:42

Yep. Mm hmm.

Kiona: 1:25:44

Oh, that's awesome.

Carrie: 1:25:45

that's why I created my own certification, is because so many of my students were saying the same thing. I was a DONA approved trainer, for that entire time that I was training those thousands of doulas. But I knew that the organization wasn't meeting my needs anymore, and I knew that it wasn't meeting the needs of my students. So that's why I created my own process.

Kiona: 1:26:04

Well, I love it. I forgot. I'm pretty sure you probably sent it in the email when you sent me over my certification, but that's great. I'm going to wear that title with pride. The first certified doula by Big Belly services. I think that's great. Awesome. Well, Carrie, I so, so, so appreciate everything that you've talked about today and the conversations that we've had throughout the many years that we've known each other and I appreciate you and thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing your stories.

Carrie: 1:26:30

Well, I am honored to be here. I'm so glad you're doing this. I've always loved you and to see you finding even more ways to bring your magic out in the world and support birthing families is awesome. So thank you for doing this Kiona

Kiona: 1:26:46

thank you so much. Of course. Of course. Interviewing Carrie for this episode was so amazing. I loved being able to pick her brain from one doula to another. And the fact that she was one of my trainers, it made it that much more fun. I also liked the little reminder that I was the very first birth doula that she certified through big belly services. Since Carrie, isn't running big belly services anymore. I would highly recommend that you read her book becoming a birth doula. If it's anything like her training, you're going to get a ton of information and it's going to be really beneficial to the way that you serve your clients. Carrie. I want to thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation. And I'm honored that you decided to share on this platform. As for you listeners, it would be amazing for you to please share this episode with a friend. There is so much information in this episode and it will be really beneficial to anyone you decide to share it with. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram@birthasweknowitpodcast so that you can become part of the BAWKI community. For next week's episode, I had the opportunity to interview Bree music. Bree is a third year student at the midwives college of Utah, as well as a mother of six. In her episode, we dive into the six very different birth experiences, as well as how she is practicing as a student midwife. So tune in next week to hear all the details on that. And if you feel inspired to share your birth story or experience on the podcast, head over to kionanessenbaum.com and fill out the guest request form. All right, bye. For now.