52-Katie Saunders-Miscarriage-3 Births-Vaginal-Cesarean-Peaceful Birth Doula Services

In this episode, Katie goes into detail about her 3 personal birth experiences. She talks about how even though you plan for specific things, they may not always end up that way. She also talks about how her births help guide her as she supports clients as a birth doula, especially since she experienced an unplanned non-emergent cesarean. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Shout Out Info:

• Nurse-Family Partnership Program: https://www.nursefamilypartnership.org/ 
• ChildStrive-Child, Family, Community: https://childstrive.org/ 

Resources:

• Treasured Art Of Birth: https://www.tabirth.com/agency/meet-the-team 
• Open Arms Perinatal Services: https://openarmsps.org/ 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International:https://www.postpartum.net

Definitions:

• Shoulder Dystocia 
• Gestational Diabetes

Transcript

Kiona: 0:08

Hello, and welcome to Birth As We Know It. I am your podcast host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, and as a mother of three amazing children with my husband and high school sweetheart by my side. After attending over 130 births, including my own, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me every week as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of the stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive into this episode today, I want to give a huge shout out to Erica Boyd. Erica Boyd is the newest Patreon member. Erica is also the nurse that was assigned to me through the nurse family partnership program 10 years ago. I even mentioned Erica in episode one, where I talk about my pregnancy and birth with my first daughter Kavina. I recently just reconnected with her. I found her via email and we went out to lunch and the lunch was absolutely amazing. I definitely felt that the lunch was not long enough and we didn't have enough time to update each other on all of the things that happened in the last eight years of our lives. I'm happy to share that I was part of the nurse family partnership program, because as a first time parent you get assigned a nurse and they come to you, whether that's in your home, sometimes they can do tele-health since COVID, but what they do is they support you for the first two years of parenthood. So it's an absolutely amazing program. And if you want to learn more, go ahead and follow the link in the show notes for this episode. And if you want to become a patron and support the podcast, go to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/support all right, let's get into the episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I am excited to have on Katie Saunders, who is the owner of Peaceful Birth Doula Services. She offers birth and postpartum doula services. And today she is here to tell us about her three different birth experiences of her own kiddos. So welcome, Katie. Thanks for coming on.

Katie: 2:55

Hi, thanks for having me.

Kiona: 2:57

Yeah, I'm super excited to dive in. So let's start off with you just telling us a little bit about yourself and who's in your family.

Katie: 3:04

Okay, so I have three kids. I've been married for almost 12 years now. we are a very active family. We have two boys and a girl. So they're nine, almost eight, and four and a half. So we have, baseball, soccer, basketball. Going through all the sports and we like going out and bike riding, hiking. One thing that's interesting about our family is that we. are all at the same school too. So when I am not doing birth work, my husband is the head of school, my kids attend there, and then I teach three days a week. So, I love being at the same school as them, and I have my own little room, and place that I work at the school and my coworkers are super flexible and understand what I do as a doula, which is amazing. I can tell them, Hey, I'm on call for a client right now. I might not be in for the next two weeks, you know, or a couple of weeks, however long it takes. So it's been great being able to be in the same place with my family and also take on this doula role where I can go help families bring in a new life and walk alongside them. So our family is very active and outdoorsy. And I like being able to tell my kids like what I'm doing also with the, you know, mom's going to go help somebody have a baby or. Talk about their plans and stuff and it's fun.

Kiona: 4:44

yeah I think that's super awesome. I mean, how cool to always have your family within arm's reach in a way, you know, just being like, Oh, I'm at the same school as my kids and my husband. And then also having the flexibility of your coworkers to be like, Hey, yeah, she's a doula. So she may or may not be here. We know how to fill in when she does go. So just taking it by stride. I think that's super awesome.

Katie: 5:07

Yeah. And one day my boss, my immediate boss, she said, you know, it's just like if your kid has a fever or your kid's sick, you might be out one day. I was like, well, yeah, I guess that is exactly how it is. My coworkers step in where it is needed and we've stepped in for them when they're gone. So it's really great to work with those kinds of people that understand and can fill in when and where needed.

Kiona: 5:28

Yeah. That sounds awesome. Sounds like you have a good ebb and flow in your workspace. So let's go ahead and dive into your own pregnancies. Tell me a little bit about your conception journey with your first. How was that?

Katie: 5:42

So I got married pretty young. at least in this area. I always think of our family and a lot of our friends that have kids that are the same age as ours. They're quite a bit older than us. We got married, two weeks before I turned 22. And, We wanted to have kids pretty quickly, but kind of decided, like, we were right out of college. My husband was actually finishing up the master's program, and I was in my first year of teaching. And so we were married I guess it would have been just over a year before we found out I was pregnant. But it was just, we'll see what happens kind of a thing, especially as you grow older, you realize how difficult it can be for some people. And so when you're young and just married and you're like, oh, okay, we're ready to start trying for a kid, you have no idea what's going to happen. how long is it going to take? Is it going to be really fast or unexpected. So, with our first and second, actually, it happened pretty quickly. And, It was a little bit of a surprise only because it was like, wow, it's, we're pregnant and it didn't take too long. It was a pretty smooth pregnancy. I had, pretty typical morning sickness throughout the day or depending on, when I ate or when I needed to eat pretty sick for the first trimester. And it slowed down in the second trimester. But as far as like getting pregnant. It was not a struggle for us. So I'm thankful for that.

Kiona: 7:15

I think that's really awesome. And you are right that as you get older, it becomes more apparent on how hard conceiving can be for people. And I've had many people on this podcast say, Oh, I feel bad saying this, but it was super quick for us. It was super easy for us. so I'm a strong believer in saying, own your truth. And if it was easy for you, embrace it because there's nothing to be sad about. There's nothing to feel bad about. It's just how your bodies work together. And I think that's great. And for those that do have a little bit more of a harder time conceiving, to also know that, Hey, I hear you. I hear that that was hard for you. And I'm validating the fact that you put in some effort for that and that that was really hard Throughout your pregnancy, did you obtain any kind of childbirth education or do any preparation to help you prepare for labor and birth?

Katie: 8:06

Our first, so what is interesting and a little crazy to some maybe. We lived in Florida for a year when we first got married, then we moved to Pennsylvania. My mom flew over to Pennsylvania when I was about 35 weeks and we wanted to have, the baby with family. So she helped me travel back to Washington and my husband finished up what he needed to do. I was staying with my parents until he got there and then we were with his parents because they had a little more space for us. We were gonna have our oldest in Washington and then we would go back to Pennsylvania to finish up jobs and eventually try to get over here. So, I was already 35 weeks and we did do a birthing class, we actually took the birth class in a different town than we would have our baby. So it was a different hospital, but we at least got to see inside, like what a birthing room looks like and, the labor and delivery area. I feel like it was a little more relaxed and maybe less scary. I actually recently listened to a podcast about like how some hospital birthing classes can scare you and overwhelm you, which I've had clients like that. They're like, Oh, I asked him, you know, why they start looking for a doula. And they say, we took this birthing class and it scared us or overwhelmed us. And now we feel like we need somebody else. It's like, well, I'm so glad you reached out, but. Let's go through these things and calm those fears and anxieties. And, I don't remember being that like overwhelmed or scared or anything. It was just helpful to know, you know, they went over the different positions and the different phases of labor phases and stages. So we did that and I've been around babies my whole life. so I felt like I had a decent handle on it. I was actually able to be in the delivery room when I was 12 years old with my first cousin that was born and then again when my first niece was born. So I felt like I was okay with it. and I wasn't too concerned, or too nervous about it cause I had been around it so much.

Kiona: 10:32

I think that's super awesome that you got to have that exposure, because You were young, 12 years old, and then your niece, maybe a little bit after that, but that's really early to be exposed to birth in that way, so do you think that that played a part at all in you wanting to become a birth worker?

Katie: 10:49

I was 17 when my niece was born. So there was a few years there, but it's always stuck in the back of my mind, that not, everybody has that that's not necessarily typical. And so, yeah, in my family, nobody really used doulas. We use our siblings and family and friends. And so eventually when we got over to the Seattle area, I realized how many people use doulas. And I just didn't realize it was a thing to hire somebody to be in such an intimate time and situation. Going back, it definitely helped me realize that, yeah, that's what I would like to do. I have a little bit of experience that was enjoyable for me. I was able to help at this important time when you need that kind of support.

Kiona: 11:45

Yeah. I think that is so awesome. so when you decided that you were going to become a birth worker, had you already had your children?

Katie: 11:54

I had all three of them. Yeah. And it was not that long ago that I really decided to jump into it. So I had some experience being in the birth room with some family members. And then I also had, had my own three, which were all very different

Kiona: 12:12

Yeah, and I got that from your guest request form, so I would love to actually dive into those. So how was your labor and birth experience with your first kiddo?

Katie: 12:23

It was much faster and earlier than anyone expected. He was 9 days early. I remember, I went to the chiropractor that day. And my water broke, and I didn't realize that wasn't so typical, had not had any contractions. My sister, I remember telling her, so she was, she's been in with me for all three labors. she had some experience in the medical field. She had four kids of her own, so she was going to be with me. And she told me, she's like, okay, well, if you just feel, let me know when you feel crampy. And she didn't tell me, like, That might be contractions. I was like, okay, so my water broke, actually in the middle of the night and I woke up my husband. So we were staying with my in laws at that time and my mother in law came in. She's like, are you feeling contractions? I was like, well, I feel some cramp. She's like, That's contractions like, okay, so we were expecting it, you know, to be all day, like a typical first birth. And my father in law was actually commuting. He was working down in Olympia. I'm assuming it was my mother in law that called him or let him know like Katie's going into labor. You have time. Don't rush over here. but he did and my water broke at, I believe it was 3 45 in the morning. We went to the hospital, which was about 30 minutes away. and I ended up having him at 11 30 that morning. So just a lot of walking around, the thing is it was nine, it was almost 10 years ago and I didn't have any doula experience or trainings yet. And that was a fast, smooth birth, especially for a first. but I just think of so many things like I can't remember if I moved around a whole lot or changed positions. I know at one point, like I knew he was going to come, but. I was on the bed and I was like, is he ever going to come out? Like I just had to say something because I knew, like I knew he was coming, but it was just, I felt like it was taking forever. I pushed him out and the doctor told me like, okay, you're going to push again to deliver the placenta. I'm like, you, you want me to push again? And so that is one thing where I think back. I'm like, oh, I guess I don't wish I could have changed things because, you do what you have the knowledge for in that situation, I guess. And, I just didn't know that my body would birth the placenta naturally and I didn't have to focus on pushing again. But it all turned out fine. Nothing was necessarily wrong with it. I just was thinking, oh. The doctor didn't need me to push again and kind of scare me as a first time mom, like, you have to, you're not done yet. so my first birth was, quick and, and smooth, and it went really well.

Kiona: 15:23

So it sounds like the length of your first birth was under 10 hours.

Katie: 15:27

Mm hmm. Yeah, I was, I think it was like eight and a half, eight hours. Yeah,

Kiona: 15:31

Yeah. And that is pretty quick for a first time parent because, most first time parents, I guess the average is about 26 hours. So just over 24 hours. I think they say between 18 and 30 hours is like The estimated time you can expect to be in labor as a first time parent. With hearing how young you were, it was probably just similar to me because mine was also about eight and a half, nine hours and I was also young and I think that's where age probably plays a role a little bit because, you know, I've been told by some people on the podcast as well as just out in the birth world that the Ideal childbearing years are between 16 and 25. So, I just think that's super interesting. It is so young. It's very young.

Katie: 16:20

yeah, when I, I grew up in Eastern Washington and it's more of a, it's a farming community and people typically I've noticed get married younger, there's not big schools over there. So I mean, my husband and I started dating our senior year of high school. We have a lot of friends that just have known each other since high school. And so if that's who you're going to be with, you get married young and then, you start having kids, I guess. There's the, there's different opportunities over there and different lifestyle where they have kids when they're younger. And then we moved over to the Seattle area and people typically wait longer to get married and then they have their careers and their goals that they want to accomplish before they have kids and then yeah Like I said people with our age of kids are typically 10 years older than us So we were pretty young and who knows When I was pregnant with him, I was substituting at different schools. I actually worked at a swim school. So I taught swim lessons. I was in the water all the time and yeah, people were kind of shocked that they didn't realize that I was pregnant until I got out of the water after teaching swim lessons. So

Kiona: 17:34

yeah, I think that's super awesome. and I also grew up in Eastern Washington for part of my childhood. I was raised in Wenatchee and East Wenatchee, and then I have some family over in Yakima on the Tri Cities area. So I understand what you're saying with like how it is a farming community. There's a lot of smaller, like towns. They're not even cities, but towns. I can relate to you with that, with the young marriage and just the kind of different momentum of life, you know, because it is a smaller town. You do meet people at a younger age and you kind of just, I mean, to be quite frank, you have less options, you know,

Katie: 18:08

That's what I

Kiona: 18:09

options over there. So you kind of just work with what you got. And, I also met my husband when I was a senior in high school. So we're just kind of lining up here, Katie.

Katie: 18:18

Well, I, I listened to your podcast, of course, the past month I've listened to a few episodes and every time I was like, wait, you would, I think, give a little hint to your next birth. I'm like, wait, that sounds a little bit like mine. I really want to hear what that's about

Kiona: 18:31

yeah, that's so cool. and it just goes to show that we could be completely different people and have similar experiences, but they're still like vastly different because They're individual. You know, they're so unique, which is why I love this podcast. but yeah, so let's go ahead and dive into what your postpartum look like for your first. Did you experience any postpartum depression or anxieties? How was your feeding choices? Like, how did that look for you? Mmm.

Katie: 18:56

I don't believe I did have any postpartum depression then. We were, so he was born in June and I believe he was about six weeks old before we went back to Pennsylvania so that my husband could continue his teaching job over there. I believe it would have been best for me to really, take better care of myself during postpartum. I've always been really active with playing sports and injuries or anything or being sick just work through it and so Being my first baby and myself being so young. I mean we have pictures of us hiking after a few weeks and I mean it was probably I can't remember it being hard or steep or anything like that But I mean there's beautiful hikes all over in Washington, and so we took him out as just a tiny little newborn out in nature and I would think that probably played a part in, not having postpartum depression, just getting out in nature and the fresh air and that's just who we are and having the family support when he was a baby, my husband and I would be able to go out for a couple hours at a time because we were living with my in laws and so we put him down for a nap. He'll sleep for a while. Let's just go out. You know, small town, go out to some yard sales and, you know, farmer's market or something and come back before he even wakes up. So I did have a lot of support and that helps now, like you said, each birth is individual, but with each birth I've attended as a doula, I've been able to connect with them somehow, because in some way, something happens or it goes a certain way that I can relate to and say that's exactly what I experienced. and you always get the clients that need to set boundaries with families and friends, and I completely understand that because you Don't want any tension in the room and you need a good support team But if they're trying to decide who to have in the room and if they should or should not Then I really want to take that seriously and encourage them You know if you think it's gonna be okay and they can be a support to you Absolutely have them in the room with you have them stay a couple days Because a lot of times people will say well we want our own time, we want to be able to settle in as a family, it's our first baby, and I completely understand that, but if you have somebody coming willing to help and stay with you and hold the baby when you're exhausted in the middle of the night, make some meals for you, do, you know, things the postpartum doula would do. I say absolutely, and if they're willing to work with you and you can say I think we'll need you, but You know if we end up not needing you then is it okay if we say can you come at a later time or

Kiona: 21:57

Right.

Katie: 21:57

or you can say not right now, but If we end up feeling like we need extra support Then can you come over just having those people that are willing to come stay with you and help you then don't brush that aside and think that you can do it on your own, which you could very well do it on your own, but from what we've had, like, I've never regretted my mom coming to stay with us or that time that we were at my in laws because it is so much help when you're just exhausted and the baby, they could not even be fussy, but they're not sleeping and you just want sleep, so we'd hand our baby off to my mother in law and she'd hold him while we go to bed and, have meals there. I mean, it was, it was good.

Kiona: 22:39

Yeah, I agree with that because I feel like in North America, we have this kind of expectation that you're independent, you can do it all on your own, and if you can't, you can hire a nanny or you can hire someone, which means spending money on someone to help you. But the reality is, people say it takes a village to raise a child for a reason, you know? Because In other countries, there are some cultures that have the expectation that the birthing parent will stay in their room for 40 days. And that means they're getting served for 40 days by the people around them, and they're getting supported, and they're getting help with their baby. So, I really want to break The expectation that we're super parents, you know, that we can do it all on our own. And I think that's where birth doulas and postpartum doulas come into play because we're kind of recreating that community that people gave up so easily to be independent. So

Katie: 23:42

mm hmm,

Kiona: 23:43

That's why we do offer services and we are here for hire and, there are even some doulas out there that do it pro bono or are on a sliding scale. And I think that that's important to mention because there are some people that can't afford a birth doula or afford a postpartum doula. And the reason why I mentioned that is because If you really need a doula, there's somebody out there that you can find to support you. And there's different programs like with the Open Arms Perinatal Services. There's, you know, so many programs out there where you can get the support that you need as a birthing person and as a new little family. So, I could talk about that on a whole other episode.

Katie: 24:24

yeah, yeah,

Kiona: 24:25

But so let's go ahead and bring our focus back to your birth and postpartum time. So you said that your birth was smooth and your postpartum was smooth. Did you decide to breastfeed

Katie: 24:36

yes,

Kiona: 24:37

and how was that for you?

Katie: 24:40

Breastfeeding all my kids was, I don't want to say easy, but I was able to breastfeed them without problems. you know when you're first time mom, you don't know how often they should be eating necessarily or if they're getting enough I remember thinking that like well if I feed him on one side He lasts like 30 minutes if I offer both sides. He'll last about an hour So it's just figuring out that I I think as I had My kids, things got better and better through pregnancy. I know that with my first, I had gestational diabetes, but they told me I had that when I was in Pennsylvania, the doctors over there. And then we came over to Washington and I would keep track of all my numbers and everything. And they're like with what I'm supposed to eat, I'm actually sometimes having trouble keeping my, my blood sugar high enough and he's like, yeah, I wouldn't think that you actually have it. So I don't know if that was a misdiagnosis or what? but and then with my second I Had to take the test twice, but then I didn't have gestational diabetes and then with my third I only had to take the test once and I passed it. So it got better and better, but as I learn more about nutrition just from my own research and seeing what is best to eat during pregnancy and I noticed that with breastfeeding too. I felt like I wasn't producing as much with my first baby and then I think it got a little bit better with my second baby just knowing what your body needs as a postpartum mom and the things that will help to boost your milk supply. And then with my third, I was actually able to store a little bit. I was never one of those overproducers and had an abundance of milk or anything, but I had enough to breastfeed and have a little bit extra with my third. When I went back to work to have bottles for her and things like that, but yeah, it's always something to get used to and figure out, but it was good. And I'm happy that I was able to breastfeed my kids. I can't remember exactly. I know with my second, he didn't care when I stopped. I remember putting him down for a nap. I was, or actually I think it was bed at night. I was like, wait, I didn't nurse him. And he's fine and they were all a little bit different with that, but yeah, feeding, I feel so lucky because I know, again, a lot of people struggle with that and a lot of people struggle with their supply or latch or, just being able to breastfeed their babies. And that was not a struggle for me. And I'm super thankful for that.

Kiona: 27:22

Yeah, I think that's awesome. I think it's really awesome that you had the opportunity to breastfeed all your babes and that you also noticed a change with each one of them. And it could be from learning from your lived experience with the previous babe and then also figuring out what's different about this one. But, our bodies do something different every single time. Sometimes you can have really low supply or sometimes you can have an abundant amount of supply and being over supplying and then sometimes it's just right, like the three little bears or Goldilocks and the three bears. but I think that it's just amazing that you had that opportunity and that you stuck to it. And I also think it's awesome that it wasn't too complicated for you because there are people that do have heavier complications and I was similar along the lines with you is where I didn't have many complications, but It doesn't take away the fact that other people do so it's okay to be happy with how your experience went and then also to support and provide guidance for those that do struggle as a birth worker, and just kind of meeting people where they're at. So, yeah, I think that's super awesome. Let's go ahead and dive into your second pregnancy. it sounds like they're really close in age. let's talk about how that conception went for you.

Katie: 28:34

So again, we bounced around a little bit. we, so we were in Pennsylvania with my first, and then we were moving back to Washington. My husband got a job and I actually ended up where we currently are. And They are pretty close in age. They're 21 months apart and it was planned again. It was just one of those things. We're like, well, we're not gonna prevent it. So we got pregnant with him pretty quickly and I think it was a little bit of again, just like a, wow, it's happening again. I think it was a little bit of a shock to our families because it was like, oh, you're kind of in the middle of moving and job changes and Like, moving across the United States and you have a one year old. But, where my husband was starting to work, they actually didn't know that I was a teacher. And so, of course, it came up and like, Oh, well, we actually have, I taught preschool. We actually have a position in preschool open. So, again, it was just one of those things where we were all in Eastern Washington first, and then my husband and son ended up over here in the Seattle area where my in laws had also moved. So my mother in law, every time we think of it, we're like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe she did that. She would drive in literally wee hours of the morning traffic to come watch our one year old so that I could go to work I think it was two days a week back then. She lived down in Olympia and we're up, in the Bothell area. So,

Kiona: 30:16

wow that's a drive.

Katie: 30:17

yeah, I don't think I really, because we had just moved here, I don't think we comprehended how, much of a drive that would be. The wrecks that she would see on the way up, the traffic that she would get stuck in. She would, leave her house at like 4 in the morning, 4 or 5 in the morning to get up here. twice a week, I think it was twice a week, 2 or 3 times a week to come watch him so that I could go back and teach. And, my second was due in March, so I taught until like a week before I had him. And, it was An even smoother pregnancy, I believe. The morning sickness kinda I know that they were all different. That one Lasted longer, I believe, but I think I knew more when it was coming. during my first pregnancy, morning sickness was more the first trimester and then it was, then it stopped. Second pregnancy was a little bit longer, but it wasn't as bad. I did, get sick and throw up in almost every single car that we have owned until I stopped having kids. I remember just like, I was like, oh, we had our little Toyota Camry. I threw up in that and we had the pickup and I threw up in that and I, luckily there was always some kind of a bag, but yeah, I did combat morning sickness pretty bad with all of them.

Kiona: 31:32

Yeah, that sounds awful. It sounds awful to have to deal with that. it's funny because I had morning sickness too, but I never actually threw up. Fun fact, I haven't thrown up since I was in first grade. Still, till this day, I don't know what it is. I know it's going to happen one day, and I'm kind of scared for it, but whatever happens, happens. But, because of that experience, and then also having kids, and Always getting super triggered when any of my kids throw up because I know it's just going to go through the whole house at that point, whatever they're sick with. I have emesis bags all over the place in my car now. So, yeah, having a bag is really important. even if that means it's like a McDonald's box or something

Katie: 32:12

Yeah, literally one time it was like a Chex Mix bag. I'm like

Kiona: 32:15

Yeah, yeah. You're like, and here it goes. Right, exactly. yeah. So since you did experience some childbirth education in your first pregnancy, did you feel the need to do it at all in your second?

Katie: 32:28

I remember so a first time it was in a hospital. So second time I decided that I wanted a midwife and I just looked up on the internet like midwives in the area and She She said that she mainly does home birth, and so I was like, oh, okay, we'll do a home birth. And I think I already had it in the back of my mind. I think it surprised my husband a little bit, but kind of didn't really give him an option. I was like, this is the midwife we found and we're going to do a home birth now. So, she asked if we, Felt like we needed to take a class or anything or, a refresher and I kind of looked around but, I felt like it was recent enough that I didn't feel like we needed another one. I had considered taking just a little refresher course but we didn't end up doing that. So we didn't have that the second or third time around.

Kiona: 33:28

Yeah. So What encouraged you into finding a midwife versus going to the hospital again? Like, what was the shift in your mindset for that?

Katie: 33:35

So, one of my sisters had a at least one home birth and then some friends were having home births and the only reason I didn't look into that a whole lot for my first pregnancy is because I was going from Pennsylvania to Washington at 35 weeks. I'm like, I'm not gonna try that in somebody else's house. So, we had our, we're in an apartment. That was one of the concerns, which I've heard it too from my clients. Like we don't wanna have a home birth cause we're in an apartment. But my midwife was like, well, I would deliver babies everywhere. It's no problem. And it was just. You know where I grew up what more people use, midwives. I was completely comfortable with them. I knew that they were just as educated and able to do births. I'm kind of that type of person, I guess, where I didn't think too much into it. I knew people that had home births. I knew I could trust them. I knew if anything goes wrong they're capable to help me, but also if we need to, then we can go to the hospital. So, yeah, I was excited to try the home birth route, and it's just going into a midwife office area, it's just so cozy and comfortable and so much more relaxed, laid back than going into a doctor's office and seeing whoever is, on shift that day. not knowing who you're going to be with. And I completely understand, and this is the way it was with my third, that there are, agencies or midwife groups that you are not sure what midwife you're going to be with, but you get to meet all of them, and hopefully you're comfortable with all of them. And just everyone is so easy to talk to you, and you don't feel rushed. With my experience, everything is a choice and they are very good at laying out your options and supporting you in whatever you choose. So I just knew I wanted to go that route and we were so comfortable with my midwives, both of them that we work with, with both births.

Kiona: 35:34

Yeah, I think that's super awesome because, it sounds like it kind of just fell into your lap in a way and that you were open to how that happened because you did have your first birth experience, where everything seemed to go pretty smoothly and there was nothing that said you couldn't do it out of the hospital. And with having that experience under your belt, It probably contributed to the comfort of being like, okay, you know, I can actually do this out of hospital and to find a midwife and they're like, hey, yeah, I do home births and then you're like, okay, cool, you know, let's do that. What I would say the biggest difference that you also mentioned here is the kind of care that you receive is different, prenatally, so you have deeper conversations, you get to talk with your provider about things in a different way, and so with you being connected to your midwife in the way that you were, being able to have everything be a choice rather than a mandate or something that is required. I really like that about a lot of out of hospital providers, and I feel like there are some in hospital providers that do that as well, but I feel like there's a little bit more hesitancy because of policies and procedures that are put into place with that.

Katie: 36:51

Yeah, it was definitely good especially to have my husband's, anxiety or, you know, nervousness put at ease, and again, I did have a great experience in the hospital. but it was just, I don't know, going back to, I guess, like you mentioned, my first birth was so smooth and I felt like, yeah, I can, I can do this. And my sister had already gone through the experience and some friends and a big. Part of the experience in general is I didn't realize the choices I had. I know with some of my doctors that I worked with, with my first birth, I do remember her asking some questions about some of the different tests and stuff, and they were a choice, but, some of the other things Uh, I just, I didn't realize that, you know, I didn't, I didn't have to do them or I didn't have to do all that, especially with the gestational diabetes with my first baby. They sent me all over the place to like nutritionists and different, people to talk to on how to handle it and all that. And then with my midwife, she told me like, this is the kind of breakfast that you can eat and this is what might affect the numbers and all that. It was just so much more, comfortable and more information I feel than I got with the doctors I was dealing with in the hospital setting. Mm-Hmm?

Kiona: 38:17

Yeah, I would say that rings true for many people as well with having a similar experience and especially if they do have a prior birth experience in a hospital setting. And, like you pointed out before, there is the experience With the in hospital providers, having them kind of cycle through, you're not sure who you're seeing. And there's usually a lot more providers in one group practice. So you don't even necessarily have the option to see all of them because the schedule shifts and the way that they're on call and everything. But with midwives, they usually, I would say the max amount of midwives that I've seen in a practice here in the Seattle area is four. And so, throughout your pregnancy, you do have time to kind of cycle through and see all of them depending on what time you come into their care. But if you start your care with them, then you do have the option to see everybody and then hopefully you do get the one that you're most comfortable with at the birth. And sometimes you get both, like two, two, of the midwives from the practice just so that, there's enough hands to be there when everything goes down. But I also just realized that we skipped over the actual birth part with him. So,

Katie: 39:22

Oh yeah, my first home birth

Kiona: 39:24

talk about that. Yeah.

Katie: 39:27

so that one was a little bit different My contractions had started and I, had them kind of throughout the day, and so that was different already for me. Because my first one I didn't have any contractions until like my water broke and they slowly started. So we had them throughout the day and So, we were over here, and my mom and one of my sisters were gonna be here for the birth, and so we were constantly like, should we come, should we stay? Eventually, they ended up coming over that evening. So he was born the 25th, so this must have been the 24th, and it was just so different, like, it, nothing was wrong, I just remember having contractions and I wasn't used to that before my water break and things just speeding up right away. So my, my sister, I think, did some massage and I was just walking around trying to rest when I could. And around 11 o'clock, I mean, we had been keeping in contact with my midwife, but, I remember thinking like, Oh my gosh, if this picks up, it's going to go so fast. And I was afraid that she was going to miss it. So I had my midwife come over around 11 PM and then I was able to go to sleep. So I know that can, that can happen just knowing that everybody's there and you're able to relax. sometimes that can speed up births because, so with my first client as a doula, as things got into place for her, her contractions would get stronger. Like her body was ready. Okay, my husband is home so her contractions would start getting stronger and then they got a babysitter in line and her contraction got you know She was just more and more ready. Whereas for me everybody was there and then they kind of slowed down, but I fell asleep and then I woke up then to my water breaking and so after that it, it went a little bit faster. I can't remember what time my water broke with him. I just remember thinking that I felt kind of bad that I had our midwife come because I was so afraid that I was going to go into labor and she wouldn't be there and then I was able to rest and like go to sleep. She visited with my mom and my sister out in the living room, which was great. We were in a two bedroom apartment and my oldest was able to sleep through the whole thing. yeah. So at one point they. I didn't, I don't know if it was mentioned to me, but one thing that kind of scared my husband is I guess the midwife said that his heartbeat, my baby's heartbeat was fluctuating a little bit more than she wanted to, or with the contractions, it was slowed down and not come back up as much as she wanted. So if that continues, we will transfer to the hospital. And the fact that I don't remember that, I believe it was just kind of like a as very calm and just to let you know, you know, um, and I believe his shoulder was stuck a little because my husband, and this was his first, the first one was in the hospital, and this was his first experience at all with home birth. Not in the hospital setting, not, you know, with a medical doctor. So I think he was pretty nervous about it. And he's like, yeah, the midwife, she, she like put her back into it and I was trying to get the baby as I was pushing, because, you know, not only did we have the heart rate fluctuation, but she could, had to get his shoulder out. and that one, I, one of the things I remember most, and I know I mentioned it with my first baby because she did say, okay, now when your body's ready, when you feel like you need to push again, We'll deliver the placenta. And so that was so much nicer knowing like, okay, I don't have to keep working to push the placenta out. My body naturally contracted and was able to deliver the placenta. And, it was, I know, kind of stressful for my husband and he wasn't sure he got a little more nervous. Like if we're going to have any more kids when you're talking about having a home birth with our third, he's like, I don't know, that's. You know, it was already a little bit scary, but he was born at 4:30 in the morning. And so again, it was a pretty, you know, labor had started early, early evening the day before, but it was, you know, 12 hours. again, it was a pretty, pretty fast from early active labor would have just been a few hours long. And that's the kind of thing that I really started learning. As I became a doula, all the different stages and the active labor and then trying to think back to my labors and like, Oh, when was I at that stage? What exactly was happening? I guess I should have not, should have known, but I would know now there was some time before I didn't have to have my midwife rushed to me or anything because I definitely was not an active labor yet. but it was, it was great. I remember, there would have been a student midwife, I believe, or at least an assistant midwife. Maybe she was just, she was the assistant at that time and helping me get up and get in the shower. with my first, I know that the receptionist, I got up, my first was born at 1130 that morning and I was up and walking around after a few hours and I went and took a shower. They're like, Oh, look at you. I was like, well, I feel kind of gross. but having a home birth, I could just go across. Our own hall into our own bathroom and get kind of washed off. and just, you know, be in my own bed. My mom was there to cook breakfast for us and take care of, our oldest. And after a while, family were able to come visit us. And it was just so, so nice being in our own space and not needing to pack up and, you know, go home. But just being there and yeah, it was, I, I loved it.

Kiona: 45:25

I think that's a really important aspect to mention is when you're at home, you're in your own space, and you kind of get to make the rules. You get to make the rules of who comes, who doesn't, when you want someone, when you don't. You get to eat whatever you want. So, I think that is. Super awesome that you had a really positive experience, and the fact that your oldest just got to sleep, not have to worry about getting shifted to the daycare or to the babysitter or anything like that. I think that's cool. And if, if he did wake up, it probably would have been just fine because there were people there by your side to, you know, be able to navigate that. So I think that's really awesome. so let's go ahead and start moving into your third pregnancy because there's a gap between your second and third. Is there a reason for that gap?

Katie: 46:18

So, we moved into our house when our second was about six months old. We were both working and it was just, we weren't sure, we knew we wanted more kids. But it's like our house is still pretty small like and then it just kind of I mean, we're still in the same house Where it's like we can maybe have another kid when we get to a bigger house

Kiona: 46:43

Mm hmm,

Katie: 46:44

a while, I was like, you know If we want more kids and we just kind of got to go for it because we can't wait until things are perfect But we did end up getting pregnant. I don't think it took that long. I don't remember. I don't remember too much time of trying, but I did know that something was wrong right away because I wasn't, I wasn't getting sick.

Kiona: 47:11

mm

Katie: 47:11

so my husband was really excited and wanted to tell our in laws right away. And, and we did, but I was like, I had a hard time getting excited about it. Cause I was like, you know, normally now I would feel something. I only took a pregnancy test. I think it was probably because I was, my period was late, and I was like, I just don't feel like it. normally I would not be feeling well, something would be off. And so, um, thankfully it was early. I mean, yeah, I guess that could be debated whether it's thankfully or not. But I did miscarry, early. And it was, it took us a little bit of time to deal with that. Obviously being sad about it and wanting kids and not expecting that at all. But also my husband's like, it's ok, you know, your body still needs to heal. You still were growing a baby. So yeah, there was a gap there, not only because we were trying to decide when to have another baby, and then you go through trying to get pregnant. And, like I said it was early. You know, probably four to six weeks along and takes a little bit of time to get back into trying to conceive again. So, um, it was not that long before we were able to conceive again. And then, of course, I want, didn't want to tell anybody right away. And it was our third. So I started showing. a little bit earlier, but yeah, thankfully we were able to conceive just a few months later with our third. So they're about four years apart or so, I think three, three and a half years. Yeah, so we got two boys and our last one was a girl and so that pregnancy was, again, just a little bit different. It was smooth, but I remember that one. I was so sick with her. I had never had such a sharp turnaround of like complete 180. I was so, but she's our wild child and I was like, well, she is the one where I figured out. If I drank coffee, I wouldn't get sick. So I'm like, now, now look what I've done. She's kind of crazy. but yeah, the first trimester, I can't remember exactly how long it lasted, but I was so sick, but eventually I figured out, I'm like, if I drink some coffee in the morning, then I actually feel a lot better. And then once the morning sickness went away, I felt just a hundred percent better. it didn't like trail off at all. It was just like. I'm not sick at all. So that was really nice. And, again with the gestational diabetes there, and I passed. So, of course, that's in the back of my mind because that's my experience, whether that had anything to do with it or not, I'm, I'm not sure. But again, I was with midwives, I was planning my home birth, so she let me know, like, this is a kind of food, you know, high protein, healthy fats, that kind of thing. And, the pregnancy in general was, was good. It was smooth, and she was my third. So, my second was three days past, uh, post due date. My third was ten days over, which feels like forever, especially being your third. Everybody says, you know, oh, your third might come early or, you know, earlier than the others, but they didn't. They came later. First one was early, and then a little bit late, and then even later, so. In the middle of summer, it was not. I felt like she was never going to come, but,

Kiona: 50:51

yeah, I am a strong believer, both as a mother and as a birth worker, that third pregnancies and third babies are just wild cards. Like, they can be the fastest birth you've ever had, or they can be the longest birth you've ever had. They could be the quickest pregnancy, the most comfortable, or it could be the worst and most treacherous pregnancy. Like, They're the, the wildcards, because they're kind of like the tiebreaker, like, how is this going to go? You know, so my third was also very much my wildcard, and I was over being pregnant by the time I was 20 weeks, and I knew I had a long, a long road ahead. So yeah, tell me how. Your experience with your miscarriage with your third pregnancy impacted your excitement for your fourth. Did you feel like you were holding things back? I know you said you didn't want to tell people right away.

Katie: 51:45

Yeah, and that's all, that's just my personality is wanting to, I never want to tell anybody really about anything until it's for sure. Like if, we're moving from the East Coast over here. I don't want to tell people until we have jobs and we are moving. I don't really want it to be, I really, I don't want to tell people about something and then have to tell them about the disappointment. and maybe that's where that stemmed from, but, I remember some people that were kind of questioning but. Nobody except close family knew about the miscarriage either. it was so, so early. But, I was getting close to my second trimester before we, we were telling people because, you know, there's that, Whether it's just a com I don't know if I want to call it a misconception, but like that once you hit second trimester you're generally safe, which yes, you, you know, you are, but if you've experienced that loss before then you're just trying to get One week, you know one week at a time until and until you feel good about it I guess there isn't really a safe zone for me It was just I felt the farther along I got the more and more comfortable I was and it definitely it definitely wasn't okay. I'm good in the second trimester. It was It was a process of I think I was I was excited especially when We, I did feel different. I did start to get morning sickness. So for me, that was actually a good thing. My husband said that. I knew, he's a midwife. I knew that it was okay that, you know, everything was good because she started snoring in her sleep. I guess I did that with our first two. But it was definitely hard, I think, more to tell people. Because, I'm a very private person and just the fact that we had lost our, our third, made it hard and I don't, you know, I don't want to let people in and then have to tell them the the heartbreak.

Kiona: 53:58

Yeah, yeah, and I think that that's important to mention because there are some people that still tell everybody and then they do have a loss. But then they either feel judged or, put down, but then they also have a village to catch them to let them know that, they're not alone and it's unfortunate that it happened and that they have support on their journey of recovery. And so I think that that's one other side of it. And you said that you did tell a couple of people, which I, I don't know. You may feel was a good thing so that you could talk about it without feeling like you couldn't, or yeah, without feeling that you couldn't talk about it or that you had to hold things back. But then again, each person who does have that experience gets to determine how much they want to talk about it and how safe they feel talking about it. So, yeah.

Katie: 54:50

Well, I think also I told people, that something didn't feel right, you know, I, I'm normally sick by now and you get the people that. are like, Oh, well, it's okay. You know, every pregnancy is different and every, and, and they're different experiences. And I know they're trying to be helpful, but at the same time, it's like, what I know, I know myself and I know my body and, and the in kind of intuition, which can be on can be wrong sometimes. you know, every pregnancy is different, but, then when we got pregnant again, then it's more like, how is she feeling? How is she? More, I guess, focused on how do I feel like things are going. I feel good. You know, I'm having some symptoms, which is actually a good thing. It makes me feel a little more, a little better because I feel like things are, are, my, things in my body are changing and progressing, which is obviously a good thing. That is making me nauseous.

Kiona: 55:52

Yeah. Yeah. And I've mentioned multiple times on this podcast, like myself and those that I interview, that intuition is a big thing in pregnancy, labor, and birth. And you know, most of the time following your gut is the way to go

Katie: 56:07

Yeah.

Kiona: 56:07

kind of going with the flow and being like, okay, you know, kind of accepting that gut feeling and going with it. But yeah, let's go ahead and navigate toward the birth of your third, of your daughter, technically your fourth pregnancy, but your third kiddo.

Katie: 56:23

Yeah.

Kiona: 56:24

Let's talk about how the birth went.

Katie: 56:26

So again, the third one was, different, like she's kind of our, the wild child and she held on for 10 days post due date. so we were, I had actually got a membrane sweep. I can't remember the first, I definitely wait until my due date. I would think that I waited until about 41 weeks, and we're planning a home birth and we went in for another appointment and she was going to do another cervical sweep. And she was in the process and my midwife knew that I was having a contraction and so she stopped. She's just gonna wait it through and my water broke and she felt so bad because I mean whether I think that it would have broken. Soon anyway, she thought that she had accidentally broken it, which whichever one I'm like, she was so apologetic. She was like, I'm so sorry, because she knew I wanted to have, a natural labor, you know, not get my water broken. at least we were trying to put me into labor, but I was like, it's, it's okay. She's going to come finally, you know, 10 days over. I'm, I'm ready. It's okay. So I don't remember what time that was. That was later afternoon. so we went home. It was a lot of water, and a lot of fluid. And so we went home. She was going to get through another, Meeting appointment with another client and then she was going to head over to our house and Contractions were going they were coming quick and strong. I knew my water already broke like she's needs to get here and It was only maybe a 10 minute drive from our appointment to the house But I know I had my husband calling she is Like, this is going quick. My in laws came, it's the middle of the day, so my in laws came to take care of the boys, and so my midwife was like, okay, okay, like, I'm, I'm coming, coming as fast as she could. And we came into the bedroom, and I know, I believe that I actually felt like pushing. I think I pushed once, and then contraction slowed down. And it was super odd. my midwife had an assistant with her and she was like, okay, well, let's check where baby is and she could feel the head and I was like, is. This, like, I've never had this happen before. Is this normal? She's like, well, it doesn't typically, I'm gonna call the, my, the other midwife, and, she tried the rebozo, the sifting. So the problem was my baby had put her arm I believe she was already engaged. I don't know how she did this. I don't know how exactly she was positioned, but somehow still got her arm up over. so my midwife was, she said, okay, I, this is not an emergency, but I believe it would be best to go to the hospital just so that we have more resources. And we had tried the sifting to get her, you know, in better position. She was at the point, she was low enough my midwife couldn't move her arm because it was stuck behind her head, and bent.

Kiona: 1:00:02

Mm

Katie: 1:00:03

she had checked me before just to see where she was. And she hadn't felt her arm there before, so somehow she got herself in this position where she's like, okay, it's not an emergency. We don't need to call the ambulance, but, you know, we need to have more resources and see exactly what, why is, you know, as contractions become strong and then they go away, we need to see what is going on here since she's already this low. so we went. My husband drove to the hospital, my midwife was in the backseat with me, and that is the hardest thing that I have done. One of the most painful experiences because I did at that point feel like pushing, but my midwife was afraid that I would tear my cervix and injure the baby. So, the body, like the female body, and the urge to push is strong. And it's natural, but I had to resist that and it took everything in me to not push. and so we got to the hospital and they told me I did end up getting an epidural so that we could kind of slow things down and see what was going on. And, you know, again, now that I've had the different doula trainings and experiences, I was, I'm thinking like, well, maybe there was different positions we could try or, you know, you learn about this shoulder dystocia and, but one thing that I am so, I really try to carefully talk to my clients about is, Being okay with what happens and once I was talking to another doula, I was working with a little bit last summer is she said something that she had heard before along the lines of like you make a decision not knowing the outcome of anything, you know, what if I, had just I Tried to birth at home. I don't know what the outcome would have been. It might have been great. She might have had shoulder dystocia. She might have torn very badly. So you make a decision, based on what you know. In that time with the choices that you have. So, I got an epidural so that I could just, we could think clearly and rest and they could give me my options. My midwife was very good at communicating and. Telling us, you know, it's still, if you choose to do, a C section, it's still, it's not an emergency, you know, this is what's going on, this is what position she's in, this is what might happen. So, even though now I think back to, maybe we could have made a different choice, maybe I could have, even, you know, with the epidural, you can still carefully change positions, and, maybe I still could have had her vaginally. But But again, I didn't have all that knowledge at that time. So I was very thankful that they weren't just trying to rush me into a c section or anything. They didn't, you know, everything was an option. My sister was with us letting, you know, also communicating my midwife, went over as much as she could with us, made sure that I was okay, taken care of, had enough support. And I I remember letting her know like, yeah, we're, we're okay now. My sister's there, my family's there. And I feel like we, we have the support we need and, and our options have been given to us. So with the position that she had put herself in and the risk to me, we decided to do a C section and. that experience, again, I, I mentioned that I want to carefully bring it up, not bring up my experience necessarily to my clients unless it gets to that point, but I just really want. I want them, of course I want things to go as planned, and if they want a natural birth, whether it be at home, or a birth center, or a hospital, or a medicated birth, I want it to go as planned, and I want to support them in whatever their choices are, but I really want them to be okay, if things mentally and physically, of course, If things don't go as planned and just like I did in that moment, you make choices based on what you know and the information that you have. So I, I don't want them to be like, I don't want clients to think that I'm gonna, you know, Oh, well, it's not going this way. Then let's go to plan B. I want to support them and in, in whatever they feel is necessary and what they, how they have planned. But, yeah, it's very important for me to, because there is, there is judgment in some communities and, you know, from people that you know that, if they think that you should have a baby in the hospital and take all the, use all that's there, all the resources and possible interventions and things like that, or whether you plan to have a home birth or whatever unmedicated, then if things don't go the way you plan, then you know, people want to know why and give their opinions and, oh, there must have been something else you could have done, but you know that that's not their experience. It's your own. I really want people to feel supported in, in whatever happens and in the choices that they make for themselves.

Kiona: 1:05:50

Yeah, I agree with that 100 percent and that's one of the reasons why I try to steer away from the vocabulary birth plan because you can't plan it. There's so much uncertainty. There's so much unknown. And so I really, when I talk to my clients, I really focus on saying birth preferences because I will say 99 percent of the time, and I've said this before in this podcast, your birth plan never goes as planned. And just because it never goes as planned does not mean that it's going to turn and be a crazy traumatic experience. It just means that something came up and you had to adjust your preferences. You had to adjust the next step that you took and it just wasn't your anticipated step to take. So having them go through and prepare for labor with preferences in mind I think is better than having them go, This is how I want it planned and if it doesn't happen this way, its going to be the worst thing ever. And so, yeah, I, I agree with what you're saying with how you kind of guide your clients in preparing for the unknown and preparing to make those decisions that nobody really anticipated on making. Nobody really knew or understood that they were going to have to make those decisions. And so, yeah, I think that that's awesome and it's a good characteristic and strategy to have as a birth worker, supporting people through birth. So I think it's awesome that you do that.

Katie: 1:07:16

Thank you. Yeah. And it's all definitely through my own experiences. I mean, I had a great smooth births and then I had one that wasn't. Again, it wasn't an emergency, and I had an amazing midwife who let me know, like, this isn't an emergency. In that situation, again, with the knowledge that I had, I think it turned out as well as it could. And I've never, felt guilty for the decisions that were made. I think now, again, maybe things could have gone differently, but we did the best with what we could and what we knew. And so that's really how I want my clients to feel when I'm supporting them.

Kiona: 1:07:55

Yeah. Yeah. I feel that and I'm sure your clients feel that as well. let's go ahead and talk about your recovery postpartum this time because it is different with the recovery of a vaginal birth versus a cesarean. So how was that for you and did it impact your feeding choice at all? And yeah, let's talk about the details of that.

Katie: 1:08:16

it was definitely a different healing process. That's just That's One of the hardest things, I think, because it was unexpected. So, I mean, honestly, I, yes, I wish that I didn't have to have a cesarean, but it's just one of those experiences that I'm glad that I have to relate to, to clients. And that's one of the things we didn't have a problem with conceiving. I didn't necessarily have a problem with breastfeeding or anything, but I'm like, okay, I did have a c section so I can help you with this if that is what happens. but I think the hardest thing was just the unexpected. The first two. I felt the postpartum healing process was easier, but I'm not I'm not good at resting and letting myself heal. So I know that I did something, I mean, just one thing, one time when I was doing laundry and I, Squatted down to get the laundry basket. I was like, this hurts really bad. And I felt like I couldn't get up. and I think it was hard on my husband too, because he didn't realize how different of a healing process that it would be. and I Again, I had people with me that were able to help me and make meals and, a lot of that support was the same, but that definitely was harder and different, just, you know, the whole, the whole different, I mean, you know, um, I, it was different for my husband to know that I couldn't just come right back. Be out and walking around. I mean, it's painful. I also have heard from others. If you stay on top of the pain medication that they give you, then it's a lot better. I was like, oh, I probably I can't remember that I was like, I probably didn't and I should have. I thought of later is breastfeeding at first was a little bit easier because when you've had a, C section and you still have, you know, it takes a while for the epidural to wear off. Then breastfeeding at first was less painful because I couldn't feel, you know, when you breastfeed and the more kids you have, your contractions to have your uterus go back to normal are, are painful. And I was like, Hey, I don't feel that. That's kind of nice. Like I didn't have that pain. but yeah, I just. Looking back on it, if we were to have another kid, I was like, oh, another baby, I would definitely, take that postpartum time, I think, more seriously, no matter how the birth would end up, I would be I would be kinder to myself and help others around me understand more, the, the importance of resting and really healing. And I think I did have some postpartum depression with my third, she was born in July and we were still able to be outside and get that, that, you know, just being outside and getting the fresh air is so important to me and the sunshine and getting out in nature, but just. maybe with, the difference of births, you know, not having it natural and the effect that that can take, whether you realize it or not, on the way your body heals and the different way the hormones in the body is just made to birth and heal in general. so many things are connected that you don't realize. and. Honestly, it wasn't until recently when I realized I'm like, Oh, just, that's kind of when I started having, you know, I, I, I deal with some anxiety now and then. and it started when I, after I believe I had all three babies and I was talking to my husband a while ago and saying that I probably did have some postpartum depression and just didn't. Didn't realize it and so I really try to talk to my clients about that and What's normal to feel and how days are hard and you have different struggles, but reach out to somebody and talk I'm always available for my past clients. However, whatever comes up If they have any questions for me or need any resources or guidance or anything, but yeah, that third one was It was, a little harder and it wasn't, you know, bad or horrible or anything. It was definitely just a, it was a different healing experience with the whole birth, the labor process and then eating a C section and then that different kind of healing. And yeah, having kids is, is kind of a crazy rollercoaster.

Kiona: 1:13:18

Yeah, it is.

Katie: 1:13:19

Yeah.

Kiona: 1:13:20

Yeah. And it's not even just the birthing part that is a rollercoaster, because, you know, obviously that takes you, it is a literal rollercoaster of emotions as you give birth, regardless of how you give birth, whether that's, you know, via cesarean, via epidural, via unmedicated. It's a rollercoaster, because There's a start and end, you know, and you gotta get through it all, however you make those decisions, but, Yeah, and then you go into parenting and it's a whole other rollercoaster for the rest of your life. It's hard. But, one thing that I wanted to mention was, um, You know, you didn't have a cesarean for your first birth. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because when you did end up with your cesarean, you were still taking care of two little ones, which then impacted your ability to recover slowly. So, yes, you had support around you, but the fact that you were already a mother to two It changes your ability to, like, actually recover in different ways. I'm not saying that you didn't have good enough support to, like, take the rest that you needed, but it's a factor that plays into your recovery. And, that itself is interesting. I am happy that you had the support that you had, and were able to, have meals cooked for you, have help with your older kids, to be able to just, kind of, be and exist. And Try to work through that new recovery.

Katie: 1:14:47

Yeah, and it's definitely, I think, I didn't have somebody telling me, and this is not, you know, my husband's fault by any means, he had also had no experience with C section or anything, and he was used to me being able to kind of, I mean, we all hate the term bounce back, right? But he was used to me being able to do that. One thing with my home birth, he was born two days before Easter, and I, by choice, was up, like, baking a cake for Easter, because carrot cake sounded really good, and I wanted to make some. and he just wasn't used to the healing process that a C section takes and I had the two older kids who Our middle child is a big snuggler and I remember that he was always wanting to be not always maybe but like when he Come and want to be with me and cuddly like push on my stomach. I'm like, oh you got no You just have to stay careful. Be careful of the stomach But I also didn't have somebody that really understood that healing process and telling me to rest and I didn't even understand what all I needed and how different the healing would be and how much rest I needed at that time.

Kiona: 1:16:05

Yeah, I mean, you didn't have anybody to tell you to slow down.

Katie: 1:16:09

Yeah.

Kiona: 1:16:10

And you're bringing your own lived experience into how you support clients. So you can say, Hey, you need to slow down. Make sure you slow down, because you yourself experienced not slowing down and how that impacted your recovery. So, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing these stories with me and with the audience of the podcast because they're three very different experiences and I think it's important to know each pregnancy and birth is so different. It's so unique and it brings its own challenges and accomplishments and all that every single time. With that said, I do want to close off this interview with just three final questions. My first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give all pregnant people to prepare for labor birth and postpartum?

Katie: 1:17:01

I talked about that with wanting to support my clients in their birth plan, but also being okay with the unplanned and it's hard to put into words and I won't, I'll try to keep it short again, but, have a preference and I want them to have the support that they need and the birth team that they want But really whatever you need to do mentally Spiritually, whatever it is really understand that yes, every birth is different and You Do what you need to do in the moment and you are doing great, with the choices that you make. But know that whatever happens and however your baby comes, that's best for you and it's your own, it's your own story and your own. Experience.

Kiona: 1:18:07

Yeah, I like that. I think that's great advice because, yeah, as we've said many times in this episode already, each birth is different, each pregnancy is different and unique, but your pregnancy and birth is your own and to embrace that and letting it be your own. My next question is, what is one resource that I can share with the listeners on your behalf?

Katie: 1:18:31

Um, so I know I had mentioned before, I very recently joined with a doula agency called Treasured Art of Birth, and I am not on that website yet, I will be soon, but there's a great team of doulas, on their website, and I also have my own business, Peaceful Birth Doula, so eventually you'd be able to look at my information on that Treasured Art of Birth website. You can find me, Peaceful Birth Doula Services, on Facebook and on Instagram and, yeah, if anybody wants to contact about birth services or postpartum, I'd be happy to talk with them.

Kiona: 1:19:11

Awesome. That's great. And so does the treasured art of birth also have postpartum duels on there or are they just birth duelists?

Katie: 1:19:19

birth and postpartum doulas.

Kiona: 1:19:20

Great. Awesome. Perfect. Thank you. I will definitely share that far and wide for you. Um, and my last question is if you could describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Katie: 1:19:35

Life changing. I had thought of that, this question and I don't think I ever actually thought of a word, but on the spot. I think that's, that's what is personally for me because of my profession now in the birth world that I definitely bring my own experiences and own births to what I do now. And yeah, it affects what I do now and how I relate to my clients and it's just, as we've said, they're all different, but they all, they're all life changing in their own way.

Kiona: 1:20:09

Yeah, I agree. I think life changing is a great word. even if it didn't pull you into the birth space, life changing because you were birthed into a mother and a parent, and that itself changes everything about your life, right?

Katie: 1:20:21

Yes. Yes.

Kiona: 1:20:23

So, I, I love that word, and I can relate to it, and I'm sure many listeners can relate to it as well. So, Katie, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me on the podcast today. I'm sure all of the listeners have learned something from this, and I know I have. And I'm just really excited to get your stories out there.

Katie: 1:20:41

Thank you. Thanks for sharing.

Kiona: 1:20:43

Yeah, awesome. Thanks for being on. Interviewing Katie for this episode kept bringing up the fact that baby's position plays a huge role in how our labor unfolds. It's just another little reminder that all babies are their own little humans and make their own little decisions. Katie. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with all of us. I really appreciate all of the details you've shared, and I really hope you the best on your journey in your doula career. As for you who is listening right now join the Birth As We Know It Podcast Community on Facebook. I would love for you all to join me on March 2nd, 2024 at 12:00 PM. Noon to celebrate the Birth As We Know It Podcast making it through an entire year. I will be making some big announcements, so you're not going to want to miss it. For next week's episode, I interviewed Angela Hodge. Angela is the owner of Angela Hodge birth services, and she will be joining us next week to share her three personal birth stories. She also touches on how she was treated due to being advanced maternal age. And how that looked different in a hospital setting as well as out of a hospital setting. So tune in because you're not going to want to miss it. All right, bye. For now.