54-Anni Denzel-2 Births- Cesarean-Termination-VBAC-Military Birth Talk

In this episode, Anni speaks on what it was like to have an unexpected cesarean and then dives into the details of what it was like to find out her unborn child in her second pregnancy was diagnosed with Trisomy 18 leading to her and her husband Chris, to make the extremely hard and sad decision to terminate the pregnancy. She then ends her episode by sharing a very positive redemptive VBAC birth story. 

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/54

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Military Birth Talk Podcast: https://www.militarybirthresourcenetwork.org/militarybirthtalk 
• Military Birth Resource Network & Postpartum Coalition: https://www.militarybirthresourcenetwork.org/ 

Definitions:

• Pubic Symphysis Pain AKA Symphysis Pubic Dysfunction
• Manual/External Cephalic Version (ECV) 
• Non-Invasive Prenatal Test (NIPT)
• Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
• Dilation and Evacuatoin (D&E)
• Amniocentesis
• Membrane /Cervical Sweep
• Occiput Posterior (OP) Presentation

Transcript

Kiona: 0:08

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive into the episode, I wanted to remind you that we have a Facebook group. So if you would like to become part of the BAWKI community on Facebook, just go to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/facebook and if you would like to support the podcast and become a patron and get a shout out in an episode, you can go to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/support all right. Let's dive into the episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Birth As We Know It. Today, I'm excited to have on Anni Denzel, who is the host of Military Birth Talk, and that is another podcast that is related to birth stories, but specifically for the military population. I'm super excited to talk to her about her two personal birth experiences, So thank you, Anni. Thanks for coming on today.

Anni: 2:16

Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.

Kiona: 2:20

Yeah. And even pre recording, like when you first got on, I was telling you that your voice sounds so familiar because I did listen to your podcast so much.

Anni: 2:30

Yes you too too

Kiona: 2:32

It just feels cool to actually like. See your face as I'm talking to you. But,

Anni: 2:36

Totally.

Kiona: 2:37

yeah, let's go ahead and dive in by first you telling us a little bit about yourself and who's in your family.

Anni: 2:44

Sure. So, my name is Anni. My husband's name is Chris. we currently live in Okinawa, Japan. my husband is active duty with the Marine Corps, and so we've lived here as a part of his orders, for the last, year and a half, we live here with our now two daughters, as of about four weeks ago, two daughters and our two dogs. And I work in nonprofit fundraising. I work for an organization remotely out in California. And, the rest of our time is spent exploring, this little island that we now call home. And, raising our kids and hanging out with our dogs and that's about it.

Kiona: 3:26

Yeah, I think that sounds super awesome. And I think it's so cool that you're still connected to the states via your job it just shows remote work is possible. And when it is remote, you could literally be anywhere.

Anni: 3:38

Yes, yes, the 17 hour time difference makes it a little challenging at times, but we make it work, you know, it's 2024. We can do whatever we want now.

Kiona: 3:46

Right, right, yeah. I can't even imagine the times that you have to be up in order to make, a meeting

Anni: 3:51

It's a little, little early. Yep. And as you mentioned, I've also got the podcast, Military Birth Talk. and so we interview, just as you do folks who are all around the world. So those time zones can be a little crazy as well.

Kiona: 4:05

yeah. And I just started getting into the interesting time zones because there was one time when I had interviewed someone who was in Australia and they do not participate in, the shift of time with daylight savings. And so I wasn't aware of that and I was just nonchalantly like, okay, cool. Our start time is this. And they're like, Hey, I'm here. And I was like, Oh snap. Like it's an hour later for me. So yeah, that's something I'll have to continue to navigate and do better at. but yeah, let's go ahead and dive into your personal stories. I would love to hear about the time when you and your husband decided it was time to conceive and how that process went for you.

Anni: 4:41

Yeah, so we got married at the end of 2019 in October and our plan was that we were gonna wait about a year To start trying to have kids. We had a honeymoon planned for June of 2020 So we were gonna go on the honeymoon get back have a nice summer and then maybe start thinking about having kids Of course, we all know what happened Our honeymoon did not happen as planned in June of 2020 and instead we found ourselves having been you know locked down together at home for several months and Sort of felt like well, you know This is maybe a good time to Think about having kids. And at that point, of course, in the pandemic, we were like, this isn't going to last very long, you know, we'll get pregnant. And then by the time the baby's born, this whole pandemic thing will be over the timing will be perfect. so we were very lucky to get pregnant pretty easily. so I became pregnant the summer of 2020. and it was pretty simple. did a little ovulation tracking. And there were downsides, of course, to being pregnant during COVID. But it was kind of nice in the sense that we had a lot of time together at home. my husband, Chris, was working from home a little bit here and there more than he would have been at any other time, and it was just a very quiet, relaxed time. so that was, you know, the upside of pregnancy during COVID. Of course, the downside was, he couldn't come to any appointments. there was a little bit less availability as far as, providers and extra services that I might have wanted. but for the most part, it didn't cause us too much stress to have a COVID pregnancy.

Kiona: 6:26

Yeah, and where were you located during this pregnancy? Were you still in the States?

Anni: 6:30

Yes. We were in North Carolina, so we were in, coastal North Carolina. A really cute little town that we really loved being in, and he of course was still in the military at this point, but we were not living on base. We were living out in town as it's called, which just means off base. It was a nice place to have our first pregnancy.

Kiona: 6:51

Nice, yeah. And so, throughout that first pregnancy, did you have any, like, health concerns or issues, or how was it for you?

Anni: 6:59

Looking back, it was very, I would say it was very textbook. I think when I was in the experience, especially because it was my first, I was very, aware of everything, all the little things, and I actually, I went into that pregnancy being really intentional mentally about the fact that I knew I was going to be experiencing all kinds of weird symptoms and unusual things, and I really wanted to just enjoy the pregnancy and be as anxiety free as possible. So I sort of just decided, you know what, I'm not going to worry about anything like If something really weird happens, if it's really alarming, I'll look into it, but if it's just some weird thing, I'm not going to get stressed out about it. So I noticed all kinds of weird symptoms. You know, my gums bled a ton, which was super weird. there were some other kind of random things that came up and, but like big picture, health was fine. I did have some nausea that persisted until about maybe the 10th or 11th week, which really isn't bad when you consider that, you're not even actually pregnant until, you know, four weeks or whatever. So, you know, it was like six weeks of sort of feeling constantly hungover, carsick, sort of. and, thankfully I didn't have any major food aversions, so I sort of just like snacked all day. and the two things that were sort of, notable health wise throughout that pregnancy, the first was that I had Braxton Hicks contractions starting from about week 16. So daily contractions for almost the whole pregnancy. which I later learned is known as irritable uterus syndrome.

Kiona: 8:43

huh.

Anni: 8:44

So I definitely had that. It really ramped up a lot by the time I got to the end to the pregnancy. and that was more, you know, sort of annoying than anything else. then the other thing that was frustrating was I had a lot of pelvic pain, that I learned is called SPD, symphysis pubic dysfunction. And, it was really hard for me to navigate at that point because I had been pretty active. You know, it was COVID, right? So like we all had time to work out five times a day. And I was staying pretty healthy and fit and I kept that going into my pregnancy. But then with the pelvic pain, I didn't realize that the types of exercise that I was doing were making it worse. Even things like yoga, which like you think of as being really gentle, but with SPD, what I learned was that what makes it worse is any kind of asymmetrical movement. So anything that you're doing with one leg at a time, which is a ton of how yoga is, you're gonna make it worse. So I was making it worse without really realizing it for a while and it took a lot of problem solving and troubleshooting to figure out what would help. And one thing that I found really frustrating was that a lot of the resources that I was looking at That are marketed as like pregnancy prep, like physical pregnancy prep programs or things that are out there online, really don't make a lot of, adjustments for SPD and SPD is really common, more than 50 percent of people experience pelvic pain during pregnancy and so I found it really frustrating that A lot of these really big programs didn't even mention it as like if you're experiencing pelvic pain like don't do these asymmetrical movements so that was something that sort of Frustrated me, but around like 20, 25 weeks, I had kind of figured out what I needed to avoid and I did really need to ramp down on my activity even like walking too much would aggravate it because when you're walking you're asymmetrical So that was tough mentally To have to slow down so much, but you know again big picture, no huge problems Everything else was healthy and routine. So Grateful for how that all went.

Kiona: 11:05

Yeah, no, I think that's really important to mention because I also experienced SPD with my second pregnancy and I did not, well, and my third, but with my second, I was not prepared. You know, I wasn't prepared with, for how intense that feeling actually is. And then you think that you're fine and then you do the stretches and things. And I also was doing yoga and I was like, in my mind, it would even hurt a little bit as I was doing yoga and, but I was like, it's going to feel worse before it gets better kind of thing or like sometimes it hurts when you stretch and like in order to like actually really get the deep stretch, it's going to hurt. And then when you do something, you're like, Oh, it hurts, but the hurt never went away. It kind of just stayed. So yeah, it was definitely, something that was unexpected. And so I'm happy that you brought that up with the statistic of it actually being more than 50 percent of people do experience SPD or pelvic pain. So throughout your pregnancy at all, did you look into any, childbirth education or preparation for your labor and birth?

Anni: 12:04

I did so I was doing I was planning at that point To have a vaginal delivery. I was really excited about that. and I was learning as much as I could about physiological birth and I was really excited to experience that. So I did take a hypnobirthing course through Expectful, the app, which was great and I would just listen to it while I would walk or, lay in bed and do the practice tracks. And I really enjoyed that. and then the other thing that I did to prepare, which might sound, silly, but I think it was truly like the best preparation was listen to a ton of birth podcasts. And I genuinely think that there is no replacement for listening to people share their birth stories because what better education is there than storytelling. and you know, I listened to hundreds and hundreds of birth stories of all different kinds, the kinds that I wanted to experience, the kinds that I Didn't want to experience things that I hadn't even thought of before and that helped me feel way more prepared I think than any book could have. I did read some books that I really liked. I read Natural Hospital Birth, which I love for anybody who's gonna give birth in a hospital Whether you want it to be an unmedicated labor or not. I just think it walks through every possible scenario and anybody should be aware of that regardless of your choices for pain management. So I loved that book. And then I did the Expectful Hypnobirthing, and that was basically it. Yeah. And then, you know, all the birth podcasts, I just felt listening to all the birth stories helped me feel very prepared for anything that might come my way because no two stories are the same.

Kiona: 13:50

Yeah. And I know that some of the listeners now know that both of us are birth story podcast hosts, but I guess we could sound a little biased in this, but I 100 percent agree with you that's one of the reasons why I really wanted to create this podcast was to get all of those stories out there because there are many birth story podcasts out there, but the more stories you hear, the better. There are some that are really scary. There are some that are. Like, super traumatic, but even hearing those stories can prep you for yours on the things that you don't want to happen but also it re humanizes birth. I really think that it re humanizes birth and it brings it back to unveiling the fact that there are humans and individuals behind the policies and procedures that are being put into place. The stories talk about how those policies and procedures impact the individuals that are within them. So I think that it's super amazing. I love hearing birth stories. I love sharing birth stories. I love listening to birth stories and not even just from, the birthing people themselves, but partners and providers and birth workers like really getting all of the input from all sides really opens up your mind and your eyes about how different birth can really be and how there's no one right way,

Anni: 15:04

Right. Right.

Kiona: 15:05

so I'm definitely not an extremist in saying home birth all the way or hospital birth all the way. I'm just like, wherever you feel safest and that's where you should birth. And I think that, yeah, I think a lot of people would agree with that

Anni: 15:18

Yeah, for sure.

Kiona: 15:20

yeah. So yeah. So let's go ahead and dive into your, your birth with your first kiddo. How was that? What decisions did you make as you were prepping? And you did end up having a hospital birth, let's talk about how that went down for you

Anni: 15:36

Yeah. So I was, as I said, very excited about the prospect of having a vaginal birth and experiencing physiological birth. and I had sort of come a long way, I would say, from where I started when I first got pregnant, which was sort of an expectation that I would just have your standard medicalized labor and delivery. I would go in to the hospital. I would get my epidural. I would, you know, lay in bed for 10 hours or whatever and then have the baby. but as I listened to more birth stories and learned more about the kind of magic that happens when you go into labor and give birth and all the things that your body does to allow that process to happen. I was like, maybe I want a more natural experience and maybe I really want to be able to experience, what my body is capable of. So I got really excited about that and then around 36 weeks we went in for a scan and found out that our baby was breach and I was so crushed. I was just so disappointed and we decided not to do an ECV, which I'm sure your listeners know is when the provider tries to rotate the baby externally. We decided not to do this for a couple of reasons. First, I wasn't a great candidate for it because my placenta was anterior. So that, diminishes the likelihood that it would be successful. I also had a lot of amniotic fluid, so that also negatively impacts outcomes. but the other reason was more that like, I felt like I had come on this journey to learning. About how smart my body was, and how my body knew what it was doing in moving me through this pregnancy. And so I kind of felt like, okay, babies generally want to be head down, like that's how they want to come out. And if this baby is not head down And the baby hadn't been head down for a while. she was breech at every scan and I just figured she'd turn. I was kind of like, okay, there's got to be some reason. So messing with that and trying to like, manually change that doesn't feel in alignment with the way that I have evolved mentally over this pregnancy. So we didn't do the ECV. We scheduled a c section, and so we went in at 39 and 3, and walked into the hospital at 6 a. m. and went into the prep room and sat in the prep area and waited for surgery. so it was a very different entry into birth than I thought it would be, and certainly very disappointing in the weeks leading up to the c section, but by the day that I had the c section, I had come to terms with it. I felt sort of an acceptance of it, and we were just excited at that point to meet the baby.

Kiona: 18:40

Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, I can just understand all of the decisions that you made. And then also, knowing the risks and benefits of an external cephalic version, which is an ECV. Knowing that and knowing what was, for you and against you, with your own personal body and how your body was working makes so much sense. When it doesn't feel right, I'm a strong believer in listening to your gut and intuition and making the decision that you had to make I think that it's awesome that you followed your gut and your intuition and then you got to know exactly what day your baby was coming and how to prep and all of that stuff. So I think there's definitely pros and cons, but getting there, getting to that point to make the decision and then getting to the point of meeting your baby is, I would say it's usually, I don't know if everybody would feel this way, but I would say it's usually worth all the decisions that you're making, right? so yeah, I think that's super awesome. So, after having your cesarean, did you plan on breastfeeding

Anni: 19:39

Yes. I was planning on breastfeeding, and we were able to initiate breastfeeding. Right there in the OR, or maybe it was in recovery right afterwards. I can't really remember. It was a little hazy, honestly. All the, you know, C section drugs. but. the nurse helped me establish breastfeeding right away, which I didn't mind. I, I've heard plenty of people say that they were like really thrown off by how handsy some of the, some hospital nurses can be with breastfeeding. I was fine with it because I was so loopy from the C section and I didn't know what I was doing anyways. she just got right in there and was all up in there helping establish that first latch, which was fine cause I needed the help. So. Breastfeeding went, I would say in retrospect, it actually went totally smoothly, but because it was my first, I was all up in my head about it for almost our whole time. I mean, I breastfed her for 10 months and. The first six months I was just like kind of consumed with am I doing this right? Is she doing this right? Has there been enough time between feeds? should I feed her more? Should I feed her less? How's my supply? Just like constantly worrying. I don't actually think that there was any reason to be worried. I think it was all perfectly normal. But you know that first time I think you just don't anticipate how involved breastfeeding is, you know You see images and stuff in media or whatever and it's just like, you know Pop the baby on the boob and that's it but it's so much more involved and it's such a steeper learning curve and I certainly was not prepared for how relentless the schedule was going to be of feeding. you hear every two to three hours and you're like, in your head, you're like, okay, that means I'll have two to three hours of time between feedings, but it takes, 45 minutes or more sometimes just to do the feeding and then you've got the burping and the changing and the whatever and then you have to start again, less than an hour later. So, I was not prepared for how relentless that experience was going to be. and it took me a while to actually feel like it was a joyful bonding experience. It just felt like a lot of work, for a long time, which I think is typical.

Kiona: 21:53

Yeah, I think that's a totally valid experience and feeling because nobody tells you, I mean, they do tell you, I guess they do tell you every two to three hours, but then nobody tells you about the in between, like what you just said. A feeding could last 45 minutes, and then you're doing the burping feeding changing, and then right when you're done, you're like, oh, okay, maybe a 20 minute gap between you gotta feed again. So, it does make it really hard and, someone's always on your boob, you know, there's always a baby on your boob and it makes it really hard. And if a baby's not on your boob, a pump is so, there's that whole aspect as well. So I appreciate you talking about the depths of that because it is a journey and yes, very normal. But one of the most common things I hear and say is as natural as breastfeeding should be doesn't mean that it's easy or comes without complication.

Anni: 22:50

right. Yeah, it was very challenging

Kiona: 22:53

Yeah. Okay, so let's go ahead and move on to when you decided that you were ready to have a second kiddo and what that conception process looked like for you guys.

Anni: 23:05

Yeah, so when our first daughter turned about one, we started kind of thinking a little bit about whether we might want to get pregnant again. And at this point, we had learned that we would be, moving to Japan. Our first daughter was born in North Carolina. we lived there for six weeks and then we moved to Kansas for a year. So cross country road trip, well, half country road trip with a six week old. so that my husband could attend a training program in Kansas for a year. So we lived there for her first year of life. And then, about six months into that, duty station, we found out that we'd be moving to Japan. So. In April when my daughter turned one, we were thinking that by the time we get to Japan that summer, that might be a good time to try thinking about number two. So, again, we were fortunate to get pregnant pretty easily. We had arrived in Japan in July and, we were pregnant by Labor Day. and the beginning of that pregnancy was, fine. Although There was something that always felt a little off about it, and I can't really put my finger on what it was, but at the time I chalked it up to the fact that we had just moved overseas. It was a little bit stressful. We were away from our family. My husband's job had him traveling a ton. So it was not a great time for our family just in terms of kind of the vibe in the family It was just a little everything was a little stressful and chaotic. And so it was different than the first pregnancy Where we were really excited and super happy and everything was just rosy and optimistic and this time it was just a little bit more like Lackluster. At about 10 weeks, we decided to do the NIPT test, the NIPT, which is, a genetic screening test, but it also provides, the sex of the baby. So You know, foolishly, we sort of did it mostly because we wanted to find out the sex of the baby early. the genetic piece was sort of like, in the back of our heads, like, Oh, we'll also find out this genetic information. so we get the test done and, because we're in Okinawa, they don't read those tests here. They ship them back and we're getting military health care. So I was seen for my pregnancy on base, at the American hospital here. so they send those test results back to the states, to LabCorp, to be processed. So there was a little bit of a lag in terms of getting the results, but it actually was fairly, it was faster than we expected. So the test results got shipped back. The following Friday, I see the email from LabCorp, directly from LabCorp. Come into my inbox because I had a LabCorp account and they now just release results directly So you don't need to wait for your provider. So it's like a Friday morning I see them come in and I'm like, oh, you know, the results are here So I have to like wait all day for Chris to get home. He gets home We do dinner and bedtime with our toddler and then you know, we're excitedly sitting down to read the results again, in our heads, we were just sitting down to find out, are we having a girl or a boy? And we open the PDF, and all I see is just the word positive. And I was like, ooh, you know, positive. We don't wanna, this is a genetic screening test, and, you know, finding out the sex of the baby. Like, the word positive is not a good sign in this. Case and kept reading and saw that the baby had screened positive for trisomy 18 And the word screen is really important here. The NIPTI is not a diagnostic test So it's a screen which essentially means that Some kind of marker has been found for whatever genetic test was being run that indicates the presence of a genetic discrepancy, but it's not diagnostic. We had screened positive for trisomy 18 and, it took us a while to get to the diagnostic phase because you can't do an amniocentesis until 16 weeks. So at this point it was about 11 or 12 weeks. And, so we had to wait four weeks to do that diagnostic, test and, did the diagnostic test at 16 weeks and found out. shortly after that it was, in fact, positive. and trisomy 18 is a genetic condition that is largely not compatible with life. there are cases where you can have what's called mosaic, a mosaic trisomy, which essentially means it's like partial. it's a very unscientific way of saying it, but since I'm not a, I'm not an MFM, I won't dive into any more detail, but. Essentially means partial and so we were sort of waiting to see if it was a mosaic case or if it was a full trisomy 18 and the results came back that it was a full trisomy 18 and babies born or babies who have trisomy 18 to that degree are either Not able to survive the pregnancy or they'll typically die within hours or days of birth. and so for us, we, felt, it was a pretty clear decision for us that we did not want to continue the pregnancy. It doesn't mean it was easy, it was a very challenging emotional time. but we felt really clear that for us, that decision was about, saving the suffering of, the baby, and also not putting me in the position of having to carry a pregnancy to term that, ultimately would not lead to a healthy or even living baby. So, we chose to terminate that pregnancy. that was complicated because as I said, we were getting care at a military facility. we have military healthcare, which is federally funded, and, due to something called the Hyde Amendment, federal funds cannot be used for abortion except in cases of rape or incest. So, our situation was considered an elective abortion, and so we were not able to get that care at our hospital. Our MFM, who was treating us, essentially said, like, I would do this if I could, but I can't, and so we had to fly on our own dime, back to the States, back to California, and, after many phone calls to, several abortion clinics at 4 a. m., because we're calling with the time difference and trying to get them when they're open and having to explain our situation over and over again. We found a clinic in California, and it was late in the pregnancy at this point. It was, you know, 18 weeks when we were making these phone calls so that decreased the number of clinics that were available to us by quite a bit. So we found a clinic in California. They were wonderful and flew back to California and, got care at a clinic there. And spent a couple weeks with family stateside and then went back to Japan. so that was, you know, a really, emotional experience. And just taught us a lot opened our eyes a lot to the reality of, health care and abortion care, in this country and I thought that I was pro choice before this, but I really was confronted with many of my own kind of biases and realized how much of the stigma against abortion I had even internalized, because when we found out that we had to find an abortion clinic instead of getting treated at our hospital, I felt really resentful. I was like, why do I need to go to an abortion clinic? Like I'm not, I don't need to like sneak into some abortion clinic. Like I should be able to get my healthcare at a hospital. and there, it was this mentality that like doing it that way was somehow. like seedy or less than in some way and it was actually such a wonderfully compassionate and Beautifully caring environment and it really taught me a lot about how much of the stigma against abortion. I even had internalized in myself and just made me even more passionate about making sure that I can do whatever I can to Facilitate health care abortion health care for women all over the world as much as possible because, because it's health care. So so that was that pregnancy kind of in a nutshell.

Kiona: 32:03

Yeah. I mean, that's a big nutshell to carry. I think that it's really important that you shared that with us because there are a lot of really hard decisions that you had to make, you know, and there is still to this day a stigma around abortion and I think that it's really important for people to have the option to be able to follow through with what is best for them and their families, because, you already had enough stress and trauma with just making the decisions, so just imagine if you didn't have the Ability or privilege to find the abortion clinic, to do what you needed to do, and you were forced to carry to term, and you were forced to birth this baby, that carries so much more trauma cause at that point you are completely out of control, you know? And that takes away all of your agency and all of the choice, and that changes you even more so as an individual and psychologically and physically than, having the agency and ability and power and voice to be able to say, Hey, no, I'm actually going to go through with this and do these things. because imagine there's other people that are over in Japan that don't have that option,

Anni: 33:18

Right. Right.

Kiona: 33:19

There's other people around the world that don't have that option, but I just said Japan because you're in Japan, but

Anni: 33:24

Right.

Kiona: 33:25

Yeah, and I don't know you very much Anni, but I just want to say that I am proud of you for following through with the decisions that you had to make because those are hard decisions. They're very hard decisions and not just for you, but your partner as well. And I'm hoping that you, it sounds like you did have a village to fall back on to support you during that time

Anni: 33:44

We did. And that was hugely, hugely helpful. I think the comment that you made about having agency is spot on. I think when you have agency in your own healthcare, regardless of the outcome, just knowing that you have that agency. can be hugely helpful in preventing a traumatic situation. And while this whole experience was very, very sad, it wasn't traumatic. And I think the reason that's true is because we did have agency. We were able to execute on our choices. Like you said, we had the privilege and the resources to be able to do so, right? We could afford to fly back to the states. we could pay for the abortion. and we weren't in a situation where we were beholden to other people's policies or, laws, right? So, having that agency was huge, and having the compassionate care that we had was huge. the folks at the clinic were just Unbelievably well trained and good at what they do and, just so wonderful and kept the experience from being traumatic because I felt so deeply cared for, and understood, and then being able to be around our family and being taken care of by them. So all of that was hugely helpful, and helped us ultimately be able to heal from the experience, when we got back to Japan.

Kiona: 35:02

Yeah. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that you did have the support that you did because, as I've already said multiple times, those are really hard decisions to make and the fact that you had support behind you while you were making them is drastically different than what it could have ended up being

Anni: 35:20

Yes. Yes.

Kiona: 35:21

Yeah, so knowing that this was your experience with your second pregnancy, at what point did you and your husband decide that you wanted to try to have another? And then how did this experience impact your third pregnancy?

Anni: 35:36

So we got back from the States in December, right before the new year. And so in January, it was like turning over a new leaf and I wanted a break from pregnancy and birth stuff. Like I just felt like it needed a little bit of a reset. And we had a really nice spring. So January, February, March, we just sort of regrouped as a family, enjoyed our little unit as the three of us. I was able to start exercising again, which was really nice. I was enjoying not feeling pregnant because the previous pregnancy I had kind of just gotten out of that first trimester fog and then we lost the pregnancy and so I was enjoying feeling good in my body again and so we had a few months of just kind of Stasis. And then in April, we decided, okay, I think this feels like a good time to start trying again. And we also sort of wanted to time it specifically because my husband travels a lot for his job. And there's a period of time at the end of the year like the late November, December, January timeframe, when he doesn't travel that much. So we were thinking it would be nice if we could time a birth around then. So in March we started tracking my ovulation again and, got pregnant in April and, we're sort of surprised, it happened quickly and, For whatever reason, that cycle, I just wasn't expecting it to have worked, and so we were sitting around one night, and, our toddler had gone to sleep, and we were like, let's, you know, let's open a bottle of wine and watch a movie, and, so my husband went to go get the bottle of wine, and I was like, you know what, maybe I'll just take a pregnancy test, like, just in case, you know, we did try this month, I don't, I think we messed up the timing, but, let me just go grab a pregnancy test, so took one, and, a couple minutes later, that second line showed up and he thought that I was kidding when I came out of the bathroom. I guess my face looked funny, but I was like, it's positive. So we did not open that bottle of wine very sadly, um, but we were very excited. and I don't know what it was about that second pregnancy, if my feeling that something was off from the beginning was related to the trisomy or where we were as a family at that point but, with the third pregnancy again, I had that feeling that I had with the first of sort of like instant happiness It instantly felt exciting. I don't know what that means But it did feel You know like it clicked right away and so That was end of April so That kicked off our third pregnancy Which was very similar to the first, it was that motion sickness feeling, nausea, the fatigue was definitely way worse, and I don't know if that's because with my first pregnancy, I didn't have a toddler to chase after it was COVID. So, you know, the whole world was sort of slower at that point. but wrangling a toddler, two big dogs, a full time job, a husband that traveled a lot. on top of the pregnancy, I was definitely very tired, this time around. And, Again, we were, I was being seen at the military clinic, just in the family medicine group. they have an OB practice, but it's a little bit harder to get into than the family medicine clinic. And the family medicine clinic here does have, OBs within their group, or doctors who are, who have OB privileges. And so I chose to just stay with the family medicine clinic. I was also allowed to bring my toddler to appointments, which was kind of a draw, whereas you're not in the OB clinic. And so, you know, with toddlers who are sick constantly, and I had all my prenatal appointments, I was like, I'll just be seen by family medicine, and that way I can bring my toddler with me if I need to. and that was nice. This was, compared to the first pregnancy, which was during COVID, my husband couldn't come to any appointments with me. This time he was able to come and see the ultrasounds and we were able to bring our toddler with us to one of the ultrasounds and she got to see baby sister, we found out it was a girl, so all of that was really nice. and overall it was, a pretty smooth pregnancy. I did have some mental roadblocks at the beginning, just trying to stay positive and hopeful and optimistic about everything. but a little bit of the, shine had come off of pregnancy after the second pregnancy and loss, you're just a little bit more aware of what can go wrong. For a while when people would say, so and so, when the baby comes, in my head there was sort of this. thing of well, if the baby comes, like if we get there, you know, if we make it a sort of sense of disbelief that it would actually come to fruition. and so I kind of had to work through that for a while. but overall, I think I did a pretty good job staying positive and really wanted to just enjoy the experience as much as possible because we did feel pretty confident that this would be our last baby. So, just tried to savor as much as possible, enjoy the bump and enjoy our toddler, learning about pregnancy and getting to know her baby sister a little early. So that was all really nice.

Kiona: 40:53

that sounds really nice. This pregnancy, did you also do the genetic testing?

Anni: 40:57

Yes, we did. We did the genetic testing. and that all came back totally fine. and I had sort of thought that. Once we do the genetic testing, if that comes back good, I'll be able to breathe a sigh of relief the rest of the pregnancy. It wasn't really that way, there was a sigh of relief for sure when that test came back clean. but then there was this feeling of like, okay, well, what's the next milestone we have to pass? I'm not really going to be relieved until we do the anatomy scan and see that's all good. And then we did that and it was fine. And I was like, okay, well, We have a growth scan in four weeks. Like I'm not really going to be relieved until we have that. And it just kind of kept, you know, mentally I kept kicking the can down the road until birth essentially. so that was something that I had to work through, but yes, the NIPT results were clean. And, that was a big relief.

Kiona: 41:50

Yeah, I can understand how the cloud kind of just follows you, you know, and you're like, yay, we passed this. And then it's like, but did we, like, are we really in the clear? And it's like, okay, cool. And it's just like that constant like, not constant, but the want of reassurance that everything is okay. Because there is so much unexpected with pregnancy and birth in general. But because you had that experience with your second pregnancy, you're like, well, I really know that things can be unexpected and not go as planned. So let's, you know, let's walk the walk and

Anni: 42:22

Yeah.

Kiona: 42:23

happens. So with going into. figuring out the plans for labor and birth, did you automatically want to schedule another cesarean since that's what you experienced your first time around? Or did you want to do something differently this time?

Anni: 42:39

So after the first C section, I was not one of those people that was immediately like, I need to have a VBAC. I was a little, I was so like disappointed, I guess, by having to have the C section in the first place that I was almost kind of like I didn't want to think about birth. I was sort of turned off by birth. I think I was a little resentful, honestly. You know, I had listened to so many birth stories where people had these amazing births, and I was like, I didn't get to have that, and now I feel sort of pissed off about it. And so, I didn't really want to think about birth for a while, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. about a VBAC or not. I was nervous that I would get my hopes up again and then be disappointed again. And so I didn't really think about it for a while. And the C section with my first was fine, but it wasn't great. I mean, it was surgery and I was like nauseous all day and didn't really get to bond with my newborn until a couple days later. And so with this pregnancy, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, but as the pregnancy progressed, I became more and more, confident that I wanted to have a VBAC and that I did want to be able to experience a vaginal birth. And, thankfully my providers were all wonderfully supportive. I mean, you'd think at a military hospital, They would be really like, I don't even know what the word is, I guess like conservative or less supportive, but, the truth is if you're a good candidate for a VBAC, it's really not that much more risky to have a VBAC than to have a repeat cesarean. It's like such a small increased risk of an emergency, less than a percentage point. So. It's really not that much more conservative to encourage people to have repeat caesareans, but there is sort of this cultural thing of that now. So thankfully, all my providers were very supportive of, having a VBAC. the providers here do rotate. So you have whoever is on call. And so it was important to me to kind of. Not only get a sense from the doctor that I was seeing monthly about his perspective, but like kind of what's the department's perspective and what are the other OB's perspectives. And because it's a military hospital, the doctors also turn over quite a bit, right? They're also on orders and they come and go. So there was a lot of turnover in the OB department, in the last few months. And so I was a little nervous because my doctor was saying the providers right now are very VBAC supportive, but we'll get a whole new crop of providers by the time you give birth and you never know, you know, so I did have to have a, TOLAC counseling, so trial of labor after cesarean counseling where they like talk to you about the risks and benefits. And it was funny. I went into that appointment expecting that the provider would be a little bit like scare tactic y. and she didn't know when I sat down for that counseling that I had already decided I wanted to do a VBAC. I think she thought that I was like going to use that appointment as a way to decide and so, she got through her whole spiel and by the end she was like, so, you know, do you have any thoughts about what you think you might want to do? And I was like, yeah, I'm planning on a VBAC. And she was like, Oh, great. Okay. Yeah. You're a great candidate for it. I'm glad you're doing that. And I was like, Oh, awesome. Okay. So that made me feel, that made me feel good and reassured. but I will say, while I wanted a VBAC and I wanted the experience of having a vaginal birth, what I wanted the most was to have a good birth experience. I wanted to have a positive, joyful experience that I could look back on fondly. And to me, what that looked like could be a number of different things. if that meant a VBAC, awesome. But if it meant a repeat cesarean because I was really suffering and we needed to pivot, if doing that was going to facilitate having a joyful, positive experience, I would have been okay with that. So it wasn't like VBAC at all costs. I really just wanted to have a positive experience. And I thought that a VBAC would be the way to get that. But I wasn't so committed that I would have like done anything to see that vision through.

Kiona: 46:56

Yeah, and I think that's a lot to take into consideration, you know, and first off, I think it's awesome that your providers were super pro VBAC for those that wanted it, because I don't think that's as common here in the States, to be honest. I think it's starting to become more common because a lot more people are wanting to have VBACs, but, you know, Every area of practice is a little bit different and feels different kind of levels of comfort. And so I think it's really cool that your providers were open to, you doing a VBAC. And so how far between, these two pregnancies or your first? Well, I guess even between, I'm just trying to do the math here because with the cesarean, and then going on to have a vaginal birth, usually ACOG says about 18 months between, 18 to 24. So But you did have

Anni: 47:47

right. I had a D and E in between.

Kiona: 47:49

So how did that impact?

Anni: 47:51

yeah, so our first daughter was two years and eight months when our second daughter was born. so they're a little more than two and a half years apart. I was told that the D and E wouldn't impact anything. It didn't like restart that timeline. they basically just said, that after the D and E, I should wait one cycle to try to get pregnant again. We waited three. So, as far as I was aware, there wasn't going to be any negative impact from the D and E and, it had been over two and a half years since the first pregnancy. so as far as safety, from a uterine rupture standpoint, I was, as in the clear as I could be. of course there's always a risk no matter what, but, there's also a risk of uterine rupture with repeat cesarean so we were in the best position that we could be, that we could hope to be. Yeah.

Kiona: 48:40

Yeah, okay. And so, I hear you saying D and E, and the term that I usually hear is D and C. Is there a difference?

Anni: 48:48

Yes.

Kiona: 48:49

Okay. educate me please!

Anni: 48:51

Yeah. Yeah. A DNC is an earlier termination. So I'm not sure exactly what point up to, let's see, what does the C stand for? it's dilation and, curatage. and it's the form of removing fetal tissue that you can do up to a certain point in a pregnancy. After that point it becomes, dilation and evacuation. so that's when they, it's a different form of removing the fetal tissue because at that point in pregnancy the fetus is larger and so you need a different type of removal. since I was almost 19 weeks at that point, mine was a D& E.

Kiona: 49:28

I appreciate that clarification, because I haven't had to think of that before.

Anni: 49:33

yeah, no, I'm happy to, yeah, I'm sorry that I don't have more scientific language to provide, but essentially it's just two different types of removal, yeah.

Kiona: 49:43

Yeah, I learned something new every time, I'm telling you, I swear. Knowing that you weren't at any particular higher risk because you had your D& E between, at what point did you decide, alright, we're ready to go, and labor's happening?

Anni: 49:58

Well, so this is kind of a funny story. So, as I've mentioned, my husband is in the military. We live in Japan, which means that having family come be with us to watch our toddler when we go into labor was kind of a tricky proposition. And because our toddler Had been born during COVID and then we moved to Kansas where we didn't know anybody still in COVID and then we moved to Japan. She's had very limited exposure to being around other people, especially overnight. of course, we have friends and neighbors and everything, but just because of the state of the world and our moving so much. It's not like she spends a ton of time, being cared for by other people besides us, and she's only two and a half. So, I was really anxious about who was going to be caring for her when we went to the hospital, and I was really nervous that she would be anxious and upset, and that would make me anxious. The whole thing just made me really stressed out. And it's not like we were in the States where I could just, call family and have them come by at a moment's notice. And I really wanted her to be well cared for and I know this is common with people going into labor like they want to know that their kids are well cared for and knowing that is, is helpful with getting the labor process even started. we also have two dogs, which I've mentioned and my mom, is allergic to them. So she couldn't come stay with our toddler when we were in the hospital because of that. And so we, asked my husband's. sister and brother in law to come. They're big travelers anyways, we knew they had wanted to come to Japan. So we thought it might be like a fun trip for them. So we asked if they would be willing to come, and they said yes. But still, they live in New York, and you know, they have jobs and lives. So we had to plan pretty meticulously around the timing. And they only had a week that they could come. So, because they had to buy plane tickets, and we had to plan this all out, Very reluctantly, we figured the only way that we could really make this work would be to schedule an induction. which I was super bummed about, because A.) I just didn't want an induction anyways if I didn't need one, and B.) With a VBAC, inductions actually decrease the likelihood of a VBAC, ending in a vaginal birth. They increase the chance of a repeat caesarean. So I was really bummed about this, but it felt like the only way that we could make it all kind of work. So my in laws bought their plane tickets. We scheduled the induction for a day after they arrived. And they could only, they ended up only being able to actually be here for six days, including the travel days. So they get here, we have a day, the induction's the next day. Like, you're getting pretty close there to like You know, kind of pushing it. So we were just crossing our fingers that everything would go well. Well, the day that the induction was scheduled for, we called the hospital. The way that they do it here is you don't actually get a time assigned. You just get a day, and then you call in the morning, and they tell you what time to come in based on the staffing ratio. So we called the hospital at 9, the morning of the scheduled induction. And they said, it's too busy. We can't safely bring you in, so you're gonna have to call back at three. So we were like, ah, okay. That sucks. We had already like said goodbye to our toddler, sent her off to daycare that morning. Now we have to like kill time all day. So I took a long walk and tried to like just clear my head and we killed time. And then at three we called back and they said, it's still too busy. We can't safely bring you in. So you're going to have to call tomorrow morning. So I'm like, ah, okay. Now we have to go to sleep. At home tonight, still no baby, now we have one less day with our in laws, you know, now the birth really has to go smoothly because they're leaving on Sunday and it was like, Friday at this point. So, Friday morning we call back at 9am, crossing our fingers, and they say, we're so sorry, but it's still way too busy, we don't have enough providers, we can't safely bring you in. The third time. So again, I like take myself on a really long walk. I went out to these cliffs that are overlook the ocean and, with a lighthouse and it's really beautiful. And I took a long walk and again, killed time, came home finally, 3 p. m. rolls around, call the hospital back. They say for the fourth time, it's still too busy. we can't bring you in safely and, but this time they said, but we know that you're now like, you know, we've delayed you now four times, so we think we're going to get a discharge tonight or this afternoon. So call us back at eight and we'll see if you can come in at 10 o'clock tonight. And by this point I was like, you know what, I really want this to be a positive, joyful experience. And if the labor and delivery unit is so slammed that they've had to delay me now four times. I don't really want to walk into that environment, I don't really want them to squeeze me in if they're so short staffed. And, I don't really want to come in for an induction at 10 o'clock at night. I might be up all night. I don't, you know, and the methods that they can use for a VBAC induction are different than, a standard induction. So cervical ripeners are not safe to use during VBACs because once you've taken a Cytotec pill, like you've taken it, you can't do anything to modulate that if it's not going well. Whereas with Pitocin, you can start really slow and low. And you can turn it off if something bad happens. so usually what they do is they'll start with a Foley bulb, if your cervix isn't open enough, and then they'll move to Pitocin. so I was like, you know, Foley bulbs are, can be pretty uncomfortable. if we go in at 10 and they do a Foley, I might be up all night, and then they're starting Pitocin. I don't want to go into this already exhausted. So We said, you know, can we just call back tomorrow, first thing tomorrow morning, to give ourselves like a good night's sleep? We'll come in tomorrow morning. They said yes. So we go in on Saturday morning at 5:30 and at this point our in laws were leaving the following day. So we were like, we're already screwed as far as child care anyways. So we're like trying to figure out what we're gonna do or like piecing together help from neighbors. We go into the hospital at 5:30. I'm like, okay, finally, we're here. We're doing it. I get on the gown. They put me on monitors. They start doing a non stress test. They're like preparing the IV. We've been there for maybe an hour and a half. My labor playlist is on. I'm like getting into the headspace and the nurse is like seconds from putting an IV in me and somebody else comes in and is like, wait, stop. Don't do the IV. So I'm like, why? And they're like, we're going to have the provider come talk to you. We're not exactly sure, but the provider said not to do the IV. So I'm like, okay, that's super weird. So like 10 or 15 minutes goes by and the OB comes in looking like very sheepish. And is like, we're so sorry, but we don't do inductions for VBACs on weekends. Because we only have one OB on, on weekends, and for VBAC inductions, we want to make sure that we have two, so that in case there's an emergency, basically they were like, we want to have one, for VBACs, we want to have an OB just dedicated to the VBAC the whole time. And she was like, your original induction was scheduled for a Thursday, and we just weren't tracking that it kept getting pushed to a weekend. I like burst into tears, I was so frustrated. But she was like, I'm really sorry, but you have to come back on Monday.

Kiona: 57:48

Anni, oh my gosh.

Anni: 57:51

I was just like, I cannot believe this is happening. we tried to plan this so meticulously and now like our family's leaving tomorrow and we're like going on three days of no induction. Now it's going to be pushed until Monday. I was just so upset. so. We go home, I don't even know what we did that day. We killed time that day. We went out to dinner that night, which was nice. And we just tried to be, you know, tried to have gratitude for having spent the week with our family, even though it didn't go the way we hoped, we still had a really nice week together. We had a nice dinner. we went to bed and at 2am I woke up with contractions. So

Kiona: 58:35

Of course.

Anni: 58:36

I'm laying in bed at 2am. My husband was sleeping on the couch because I, in late pregnancy, have one of those massive pregnancy pillows and there's just no room for him in our bed. So he was on the couch. And so I'm just laying there and, you know, woke up to a contraction and then 15 minutes later had another one. And I was like, okay, and then 15 minutes later had another and I was like, okay, those were evenly spaced. Interesting. so after four, I started timing them. And they just continued every 15 minutes. And so by this point, it's 4 a. m. I'm like, okay, I've been having consistent contractions. they're different than the Braxton Hicks. They're a little bit uncomfortable. but in my head, I was like, this is just padromal labor. And it's 2 a. m. and I'm gonna wake up, you know, I'm, the sun is gonna come up, the house is gonna get busy. everybody's going to go about their day and the contractions are going to stop because that's what always happens. And at 8 a. m. I'm going to drive my in laws an hour to the airport because that's what the plan was. And I will certainly still do that. No problem. And, by this point we had figured out that my sister who lives in San Francisco was going to hop on a plane and fly over. To stay with our toddler. So I was like, okay, it's Sunday morning, by Sunday night My sister will have arrived by then and I'll go to sleep tonight and contractions will start back again It'll be perfect, you know So six o'clock rolls around and I'm still having contractions and I go downstairs and my husband's awake and I'm like, hey You know, I've been having contractions for a few hours, but they're gonna stop, you know It's not gonna keep going and I'll take Megan and Paul to the airport. No problem. And he's like, um I don't really think I want you to drive an hour to the airport if you're having contractions since 2 a. m. And I was like, no, they'll stop they're not gonna keep going and he was like, all right Well, we'll just give it a little and wait and see so the morning continues and the contractions continue But they start sort of it was weird. They started getting closer together But shorter in duration, so they were like eight or nine minutes apart But they were only lasting for 30 seconds and they were like very Easy to talk through so they had gotten less intense and shorter, but closer together So I was like, I don't really know what that means I took a shower at one point and had 30 minutes between contractions and I was like, okay, they're slowing down But that only happened once and then they picked back up so around like 8 Chris had finally convinced me that it was not a good idea to drive an hour south to the airport and then an hour back north while I was having contractions. So we called the cab for my in laws. We also called the babysitter for our toddler because we didn't really know what was going to happen. So they left and the babysitter showed up. That all happened around 8:30. So I went upstairs and got in bed with our dogs and just continued to have contractions, and they started to kind of intensify and I was kind of starting to feel a little not great, and, but I, you know, I was still kind of like not believing what was happening. And so my husband came up around nine and he was like, all right, I'm going to go to the commissary, which is the grocery store on base. we have no food in the house at this point because we thought we were going to be in the hospital. So. I'm going to go get some essentials. I'll be back in an hour. And I was like, great. Okay. Stop and get a bottle of wine too. Cause my sister's arriving here later and we'll have a glass of wine with her when she gets here. so he goes and 45 minutes later I was like, Oh, I can't like, I, this is this is for real. So I texted my husband and I was like, I think I need you to come back home. Like I don't know. It seems weird to say, but I think I can't do this by myself anymore. So he got back home and by the time he got home, I was like moaning through contractions, but I was still fully present in between. So like at this point we called our doula to figure out what we should do. And I was chatting with her, like I'm chatting with you now, just normally having a normal conversation. And I was so aware that she was going to be hearing me being like, no, she doesn't need to go into the hospital. She's having a normal conversation. Yes, she's moaning through contractions, but she's fully present in between them. She's definitely not progressed enough to go to the hospital. So I was totally confused about what was going on. On the one hand, I was like, I'm not even in labor. This is just. I'm just making it up and then on the other hand, I was like, I maybe I need to go to the hospital. Like it was so weird. so our doula Bridget was like, well, why don't you, call the hospital and tell them what's going on and ask them what they would recommend because you don't want to go in if they're going to just send you back if you're only like one or two centimeters. So find out what they want you to do. And she was like, but I would recommend that you stay at home for one or two hours of having contractions that are five minutes apart lasting for a minute and that was kind of where we were at that point they were like six minutes apart lasting for a minute and they had been that way for about an hour so I was like okay keep doing this for another hour we called the hospital by the time we got off the phone with them I was like I can't do this for another hour at home I just was like I need to get there I can't do this in the car I just need to be where we're going to birth, and I need to just be settled. and so we just decided that was what we were going to do. We got in the car and got to the hospital in about 20 minutes. it took a while to get out of the car and into the hospital because I was like that person having contractions in the middle of the parking lot like leaning over my husband. so we finally got in, we got to triage and I have never had a cervical check before because my first was breech and with this one I was only 39 weeks so this was my first ever cervical check and it was so uncomfortable that the, provider like couldn't really find my cervix so she finally found it and was like, it's very posterior, it's very hard, 0 percent effaced, and you're like maybe a 1. So I was like, okay. That's really disappointing. But I also was like, that just doesn't jive with how I feel. I feel super, this feels super intense. And I'm like, moaning through contractions, I can't talk anymore. So I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do if I'm only at a one. in my head I was just like, this is so confusing. So, she left, I think, to go get the provider, and when she came back, my water broke, and I felt like this pop, and a trickle, and then when she looked at the water, she saw that there was meconium in the water. So even though I was only at a one, because my water had broken and there was meconium and I was a VBAC, they admitted me. So I was like, okay, I'm really relieved that we're admitted, but I'm also a little stressed because if I'm only at a one, what are They're going to want to augment labor. So they're probably going to want to do pitocin. I definitely don't want to do pitocin without an epidural if I'm already in this much discomfort, but I don't want to get an epidural if I'm only a one because that's not going to end well. So I was just like, I don't know what to do. So we get into the delivery room at 1230 or one, just from looking back at texts. And. I get into a gown, I get back on the monitors, they place two IVs, because they wanted one for drugs and one for, hydration, I guess. So they, they place the first IV, no problem. The second IV, they like can't get in and nothing's running in the first IV. It's just like an open port at this point. So the second IV, they can't get in and I'm like having really intense contractions. In a lot of pain. They're all in my back. So it's all back labor. And when they try to place the second IV, I start to have a vasovagal reaction, which is very common for me, which is like a drop in blood pressure. And I start to feel like I'm going to faint. so I say I feel like I'm going to faint. They get some like smelling salts or something out and. A contraction comes and wakes me up from fainting, which I actually was super relieved about because that feeling of being about to pass out is horrible. They take about seven tries to try to get that second IV in. The whole thing takes about an hour and a half. Meanwhile, I'm like still having these really intense contractions. my doula arrives. She's in between attempts with the second IV. She's having me get into all these really crazy positions because the back labor indicates that the baby is posterior, which is not a great position for delivery. So she's having me like up on one knee, and holding the back of the bed, and in a pelvic tilt, and all these things that just feel horrible during contractions. They finally have the anesthesiologist come in, so this is now, at this point it's about 2:30. They have the anesthesiologist come in to do the second IV. He gets it in, and then while he's there, he gives me the whole epidural spiel. While I'm like paying no attention, just contracting and moaning through this whole thing. so he leaves, and I'm just in so much discomfort. It's just feeling so intense. and meanwhile, I'm just like so stressed out about the fact that I'm only at a one. So I'm like, I am not going to be able to do this without an epidural. And by this point, the OB had come in and said, we would like to augment with Pitocin. So I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I can't get an epidural this early, but I definitely can't add Pitocin into this already incredibly intense situation. So my doula is like, well, why don't you ask for another cervical check just to see where things are? Cause maybe you're at a three or four by now. that might not be so terrible with an epidural. but she also knew and my husband knew that I had wanted to try to avoid the epidural if possible. So I think they were kind of trying to delay things a little bit. So we asked for another cervical check around three and I was at a seven. So I'm like, okay, that's awesome. Maybe I wasn't really a one when I got here. Either way, I'm at a seven. We're rocking and rolling. I was super relieved. And so I was like, well, if I'm already at a seven, like maybe I should just power through here. and my doula was like, well, you can get the epidural, but you're going to have to get a bolus of fluid first. So you're going to have to wait a half an hour for that because right now there was nothing in my IVs. And then, you're going to have to sit totally still for five minutes through the epidural. And also, you're having a lot of back labor and sometimes epidurals are not as effective with back labor. And so she was just kind of gently being like, you should totally do what you want to do. But here are some things to consider. And I was like, okay. Definitely don't want to do all those things if it's just not going to work. and so. Kept laboring. It was so intense. I had all of these affirmations that I had printed out That I had envisioned I would like tape, you know up all over the room But my eyes were closed the whole time like it definitely wasn't gonna be reading any affirmations And I have this one that I had really wanted to focus on which is like what you're feeling is power not pain And I was like, this is definitely pain like that is ridiculous at one point the doula recommended that we go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet So I went sat on the toilet had a super painful contraction there Needed to like immediately get off and get onto the ground and like be on hands and knees and then after that we went back To the bed and they put the bed upright so that I could hold the back of the bed And at this point I was like writhing around and I accidentally ripped that second IV out of my hand or my arm so there was like Blood pouring out of my arm, like all over the back of the bed, which I didn't even notice, but my husband was like, oh my gosh, there's blood everywhere. and right around then, so this was maybe 4:30 by this point, I started to feel a little bit of pain in my front. So, like in my, actually in my uterus, not in my back. And I felt like this weird feeling and I was like, I feel like maybe she's turning, she's rotating, because now I'm starting to feel contractions in my front. but of course the providers were like, okay, you know, they're on high alert for rupture. So I'm saying I'm starting to feel pain in my front. So they're starting to get really on guard, and right around that time I started feeling this, like, heaving sensation. Like, you feel when you have to throw up, but it was like a downward heaving. And I was like, I know what that means. could we really be, like, no, this can't really be happening. I'm not really about to have a VBAC that went from a 1 to a 7 in 3 hours. I wasn't even really in labor this morning. That was just prodromal fake labor. Like this can't really be happening. so I start to feel this like heaving sensation and totally involuntary feeling and what I said was I feel like I have to poop even though I didn't feel like I had to poop I knew that they would know what I was talking about. so I was like, I feel kind of like I have to poop. And they were like, all right, let's check you. So they gave me another cervical check. And the nurse said, you have no cervix left. You can start pushing. and so I turned over onto my side. At this point, they had not been able to find the baby's heart, heartbeat. And you know, she was in my birth canal. So like, that's pretty common. But they were on high alert because of the VBAC. And so They were getting a little nervous and said that they wanted to do an internal monitor, which I was not thrilled about because the idea of having something drilled into my unborn child's skull is a little, scary to think about. But my doula made me feel reassured about it and, you know, said it's not as scary as it seems and, you know, the providers want to make sure that everything is safe. And so I was like, okay, that's fine. So they did the internal. monitor found the baby's heart heartbeat was fine and I started pushing, and I sort of rotated onto my back at one point and nothing felt comfortable at that point. So I was like, I don't really care. You know, if they want me to be in that position, like whatever, I don't want to be, I don't care anyways. Cause this all feels terrible. So, I started pushing and I felt, Really intense stinging like up on the top, really not on the bottom. And so that was weird. I was not really expecting that. but the provider was using a warm compress, as I was pushing, which was great. That was something that was in my birth plan. And so I appreciated them noticing that and doing that and, started pushing and I felt the baby's head like come out and then get sucked back in. I was actually like relieved at the sucking back in part because it gave me a little bit of a break. I was kind of scared, like that pushing feeling was scary. And I was saying to my doula and my husband like, I feel scared, I don't know why but I'm scared. And, I think it was just all such a new feeling. And, it was kind of just overwhelming. And so pushed for about 15 minutes. And then in one final push, basically her whole body came out all in one. And my eyes were closed the whole time, so I, didn't really know what was happening. And if somebody had told me, You're pushing, but your baby is still, really high at, Negative two station or something. I would have believed them because I didn't know what any of this was supposed to feel like. So even when she was crowning, I was like, if somebody told me she was still really high, I would believe that. I would believe that we could be pushing for three hours still. so when she came out, I didn't realize that she had come out until my husband said, She's here! You did it! and they placed her right on my chest, and I was Shaking like crazy, which, thank goodness from, again, listening to birth stories, I knew that was totally normal. Like, shaking to the point where, like my jaw was chattering, so my husband, moved the baby further down on my chest, because he was like, you're, like, knocking her in the head with your jaw. I was just so, I could not believe that it happened that way. It had been such a whirlwind five days and for it all to end in this like spectacular fashion, like pretty fast labor, to go from, a one to a seven and baby out by 530 when I had gotten to the hospital at noon, just was wild and I was so, I think I was just so like in shock from the whole experience, not in a bad way, but just, it took me a while to kind of come back to my body and it probably took me a good, like, 30 or 45 minutes to even really focus on the baby on me because I was just kind of like Coming back to my senses coming back to my body and Yeah, so that was the birth the immediate like golden hour was sort of not really a thing it was a little chaotic in there because they were I had a first degree tear so they were repairing the tear and The placenta took a little longer to come out than they wanted, and there was a little bit more bleeding than they wanted, so there was like, a lot going on with that, and I was, again, I was just kind of still coming back to my body, so we didn't really have that, initial golden hour, even though she was on my chest that whole time, but honestly, I didn't really mind, because I was preoccupied anyways, So about an hour went by and then everything was good to go. We were ready to move to our recovery room. I walked over to the shower and rinsed off. I was like, what is this? walking an hour later, so different than the C section. and then we got to our recovery room and it was just the three of us. And it was, like, magical.

Kiona: 1:16:50

Oh my gosh, Anni. I'm just smiling this whole time. my face hurts so bad because I'm just, like, so happy to hear the progress of this, and to also know that you're, the way that your mind was thinking with the whole denial thing, and then like, oh, shit, this is actually happening. I can relate to that so bad.

Anni: 1:17:13

It was so weird cause I was in denial the whole time until she was out of my body, but also at the same time was like, I need to get to the hospital right away. Like the fact that those were both happening, I will never be able to explain.

Kiona: 1:17:28

Yeah. And whoever your doula is, your doula is awesome. I really love everything that she was suggesting and utilizing the time between, tries of getting that second IV in. Sounds like they didn't need it because you just ripped it out anyway.

Anni: 1:17:43

That was the one thing that I wish I had advocated a little bit more. I wish that like after that, you know, the first or second attempt with that second IV, I wish I had just said, you know what? No, we don't need a second IV. You already have one in, and nothing is running to it right now. If you need it, use it, and then we'll add another one at that point. But we don't need to spend an hour and a half trying to get an IV in me. But, I wasn't of sound mind at that point.

Kiona: 1:18:08

Right, right, yeah. And then how awesome for your sister to just be like, Oh, I'm jumping on a plane now. And it sounds like you had the baby before she got there anyway.

Anni: 1:18:17

Yep. Yep. Which was a whole other thing. My husband Chris was having to come in and out during labor making phone calls to figure out who's gonna pick her up from the airport and she needs to get a visitor's pass in order to be granted access to the base and like all of these logistical things. So he said he made like 15 phone calls while like in between contractions just running in and out, which I didn't know was happening.

Kiona: 1:18:42

Which is good that you didn't know it was happening, because you did not need to add that extra layer of stress on yourself

Anni: 1:18:47

he he nailed it. He figured it all out. Yeah.

Kiona: 1:18:49

Yeah, Chris is awesome for that, so that's really cool. Oh, that's so exciting, and it sounds like this birth was really redemptive for you.

Anni: 1:18:57

yeah, it was really great. it was a really great experience and it didn't go the way that I thought it would go, but it went exactly as it was supposed to go. And it was such a great empowering experience to think back on. And I've relived it a number of times in my head and think about it very positively, even though when I was experiencing it. I was in a ton of pain and was very unhappy, I was kind of envisioning originally that I would have this very Zen, quiet labor. I had done hypnobirthing and I was going to have my labor playlist on and it was going to be very chill. And it was not like that at all. but. I look back on it super fondly and I'm really glad that it went the way that it did and I'm just really proud of myself for doing it and I'm like super grateful for the team that we had. My husband obviously was awesome and our doula was amazing but we also had an amazing nurse. who followed everything on my birth plan to a T and was super supportive of the unmedicated labor, was helping with counter pressure the whole time and was very encouraging. And, the OB was great too. There were a couple of things that I could tell he wanted to do differently than what was on my birth plan. but the two times when he had to kind of deviate a little bit, he asked me first. which was so appreciative. The first thing was with the fetal monitor, the internal monitor. And then the second was around the management of the placenta delivery. I had requested to not have any controlled traction on the cord. And after about 15 minutes, I was bleeding more than they wanted to see. And he wanted to start being more active in his management of the placenta. And he asked my permission. And I said, yes. And just being given agency again, like makes such a big difference in how you feel about your experience. And so. The whole thing was great. I loved the experience and I'm so glad that I had it.

Kiona: 1:20:53

Yeah, that sounds so awesome. And I just have to say, for the listeners, you and I know this, but we were actually scheduled to have this interview prior to you giving birth this second time. I did not even know that you were actively pregnant, and we were just going to talk about your first, birth. And so, I'm happy that the universe made it work to where, you know, we also got to share your second birth story, Which is exciting because it comes full circle in a way, you had all three of your pregnancy experiences and then to have it end in such a positive light with such positive energy with so much agency, I personally think that it's amazing. I'm super proud of you for doing all the advocating that you did for yourself and for surrounding yourself with people that were just all for all the things that you were doing and with adjusting and navigating where you needed to change with your birth preferences and just going forward with all the things. I'm just so happy!

Anni: 1:21:54

Yeah. Thanks. I know I, it's funny when we scheduled that first interview, I think I was still sort of guarding myself a little bit. I didn't know how the birth would go. I didn't know if it would be disappointing. I didn't know if it would end up in another c section. I didn't, I just didn't know. And so I didn't want to make any plans. And even with my own podcast, I wasn't really talking about the fact that I was pregnant. I was telling guests, but off air and, you know, there wasn't any specific plan to do my own birth story cause I didn't know how it would go and, I'm really grateful that I have this, not only that I had the experience, but now I have the memory of it that I get to relive In perpetuity, which is a great way to access, strength and power. I think in future moments, you know, when you feel like you're in a really tough situation, being able to think back on a time when you did something really hard is so empowering. So I'm happy that I have this now to draw on going forward.

Kiona: 1:22:53

Yeah, I think that's super awesome, and I just do want to let the listeners know that they can go to your podcast, Military Birth Talk, and hear your birth story with your husband as well on air. So I think that's super awesome. I avoided listening because I wanted all the juicy details, but now I am going to go back and listen even though I know the details. Just to hear his perspective as well, because partner perspectives are super important. And I'm excited to hear that as well. So Anni, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. I'm so excited and I'm ready to get your story out on air again because yours is already on air on your podcast. But yeah, this is just super awesome. the only thing I have left is three final closing questions for you

Anni: 1:23:39

Great.

Kiona: 1:23:40

My first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people as they prepare for labor, birth, and postpartum?

Anni: 1:23:48

I would say take things one day at a time. and practice being aware of how temporary everything is. and that's going to carry into birth too and postpartum. Um, There's so much that happens during pregnancy and birth that is new and weird and scary and awesome. And all of it is temporary, the good and the bad. And so I think when you're in moments of being really challenged and also moments of being really joyful, like just take a moment to think about how temporary everything is. And the bad stuff won't last forever, and neither will the good stuff. And so, trying not to wish away time, I think, is a really good practice to get into during pregnancy. And then also, especially in those like early postpartum days, when things can feel really intense and hard, just try to stay present in the moment as much as possible.

Kiona: 1:24:46

Yeah, I love that advice. I think it's really good, and I would even Say to like carry that same kind of practice into parenthood because, there's a lot of really hard times as a parent. There is no seatbelts on this roller coaster that we call life, so, we just got to go with it. So I love that. Thank you for that one. my next question is, what is one resource we can share with the listeners on your behalf?

Anni: 1:25:11

So it goes in hand with the podcast, but I would say, for any listeners out there who are affiliated with the military, there's a wonderful organization called the Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition, long name, but MBRNPC is the acronym. And, that's the organization that owns the podcast that I host, and it is exactly what it sounds like. It's a network for military families, it's kind of like a directory and also like a community network, for birthing families in the military. So if you're stationed somewhere and you want to know if there's a doula in your area that's in network with TRICARE, you can go to the Military Birth Resource Network website and type in where you are and see who they would recommend. So it's, a really good resource for military families who are pregnant or about to give birth or postpartum to find resources and community in their area. so I would definitely recommend that if you're a military family listening that you check that out. It's a super awesome resource.

Kiona: 1:26:17

Yeah, I think that is super awesome, and it sounds awesome, especially since TRICARE can be super tricky. so, yeah, definitely take advantage of that if you are in the military and on TRICARE to navigate that whole system there. so my final question for you is, if you could describe your births with one word, what would It be?

Anni: 1:26:39

yeah. for the first birth, I would say, educational, for the second pregnancy, I would say eyeopening. And for the third, I would say, either full circle or Empowering. As cheesy as it sounds, you know, I think the third experience really brought everything together, connected all three experiences in a really beautiful way. yeah.

Kiona: 1:27:11

Yeah, I love those words. I think that all of them are true based on the stories that you told me. You know, not that it matters what I think, but I love them and I feel like I can really feel the meaning of those words behind your stories since you've shared them with me. Yeah. Anni, thank you. I could talk to you forever about these things. I'm super excited to have you on the podcast and I'm just excited to share your story. So thank you so much for coming on

Anni: 1:27:36

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun and I love your podcast and thank you for everything that you're doing for this community. It's very needed and appreciated.

Kiona: 1:27:46

Oh, thank you. You as well. Your podcast is awesome too. Your podcast is one of the podcasts that I binge. So whenever a new one comes out, I'm like, okay, let me, let me listen to it while I take my dog out to play or something. So. Yeah, Awesome. Well, thank you, Anni.

Anni: 1:28:02

Thank you.

Kiona: 1:28:14

I had such a good time interviewing Anni for this episode. Especially after I had the chance to listen to her podcast, Military Birth Talk I really appreciate Anni's vulnerability when she was talking to us about all of the decisions that she had to make in all three of her pregnancies. So Anni, thank you so much for sharing with us, I really appreciate you and I can't wait to listen to more of your podcast. So, as you all know, this is the first episode of the second year of the Birth As We Know It Podcast. We are going to be biweekly from now on. So instead of hearing from me next week, you will be hearing from me in a couple of weeks. I have not yet interviewed the person that we will be sharing the story for, but I'm still excited to share more stories with you. So, if you want to continue to connect, join the BAWKI community on Facebook. You can do that by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/facebook. And if you want to support the podcast, go to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/support and become a patron to get a shout out on an episode. All right. Talk to you all in a couple of weeks. Bye for now.