55-Kaitlin Rieck-2 Births-Cesarean-VBAC-Esmé & Astrid-Kith & Kin Care Collective

In this episode, Kaitlin shares her first birth experience which ended up in an unexpected cesarean even though the care from her team was amazing. She then talks about her redemptive VBAC that led her to a tougher recovery than her first birth in addition to talking about how she ended up working with postpartum families as a postpartum doula.

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/55 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Kith & Kin Care Collective: www.kak.care 
• “Handbook to Me”: https://www.kithandkincarecollective.com/resources 
• Spinning Babies: https://www.spinningbabies.com/ 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International:https://www.postpartum.net
• Whole Body Pregnancy-Erika Davis: https://www.wholebodypregnancy.com/
• Birth Advocacy Doula Training 

Definitions:

• Rheumatoid Arthritis in Pregnancy and Postpartum
• Vaginal Birth After Cesarean (VBAC) 
• Pelvic Floor Therapy
• Hypnobirthing 
• Bishop Score
• Uterine Rupture
• Fetal Scalp Monitor

Transcript

Kiona: 0:08

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique, so make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive into this episode, I want to remind everybody that we have an amazing Facebook group. Only for listeners of the birth as we know what podcast. So it is the birth, as we know it, podcast community, and you can find it by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/facebook. I also want to take this time to say I missed you guys. It has been the first time that we had a gap week between episodes and I felt a little lost. I got to get in a rhythm of doing it every other week, but, I will figure it out and I will continue to make sure that you all get amazing content to share. I also want to mention the newest review that has been posted for the Birth As We Know It podcast. The review was written by someone named Florida user 57. And it is titled great birth stories with a rating of five stars. It says this podcast is amazing and it's mostly because of the host Kiona, just listen to one episode and you will see that she is delighted and fascinated by the subject of birth. And if you love hearing stories, parentheses who doesn't parentheses you'll enjoy the format of the show. Every episode is someone telling their story of giving birth. Kiona knows how to guide the conversation and ask the right questions. Having professionally experienced over 135 births herself, either as a student midwife, birth doula or birth assistant. And she's the mother of her own three children. Give the show a try and you'll want to go and download the past episodes to. Thank you so much, Florida user 57. I truly appreciate it. You really did your research with all of the information that you are providing people in this review. I appreciate your effort and thank you for listening to the podcast. All right. Let's dive into today's episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I have on Kaitlin Rieck, who is a mom of two wonderful daughters who are almost three and almost six. Kaitlin is on today to talk about how her birth experiences led her to becoming a birth worker. Her business is called Kith and Kin Care Collective, where she does postpartum care and sleep counseling, as well as coaching people through VBAC and C sections. So welcome, Kaitlin. Thanks for coming on today.

Kaitlin: 3:49

Thanks for having me.

Kiona: 3:50

Yeah. Let's go ahead and have you tell us a little bit about yourself and who's in your family.

Kaitlin: 3:56

Yeah, like you said, I'm a mom of two girls I live with, my husband Dean, and our dog Dutch. Dutch got his name because my husband is Dutch. and yeah, we live in Shoreline, Washington, and, just kind of bumping along in life. Spent a lot of time in the backyard with my kids.

Kiona: 4:16

That's awesome. That's awesome. I wish we had a backyard to spend time in. We live in a townhome, so we have this really rinky dink side yard, but we do our best.

Kaitlin: 4:25

Fair enough.

Kiona: 4:26

Yeah. So let's go ahead and just dive into your conception with your first kiddo. So tell me, was it intended? Was it a surprise? Was it an oopsie doopsie? Tell me all the things.

Kaitlin: 4:40

Oh, man, we are a planning family. so definitely planned. it took us, longer than I expected. It's more like the first bump. It's probably everybody's first bump, but, took us about eight or nine months to get pregnant. and, I'm sort of this planning, use all the tools person. So I had this thermometer thing that I don't think exists anymore that came with an app, to try and figure out, the temperature at the right time and all the things, and ultimately it just happened when it was supposed to happen. So yeah, that, that's kind of how we got pregnant, the first time and, kind of rolled from there. I think one funny part probably about my conception journey is I just, Thought it was normal for you to want to know who your provider was going to be before you got pregnant So I went and like interviewed these midwives and they were like, what are you doing here? Like you're not pregnant

Kiona: 5:30

I actually love that for you. I love that.

Kaitlin: 5:34

they weren't mean They just were like, this never happens. And I was like, Oh, I just thought that's what you should do. So, anyway, that was also part of my conception journey was being a little A type about everything. Mm

Kiona: 5:47

I honestly wish more people did that, because then they would be able to have the conversations and feel like, mm, this provider rubbed me the wrong way, before you feel locked in or stuck, So I think that's awesome. And, so how was your pregnancy with your first? How did it feel? Did you have a lot of morning sickness? How was that?

Kaitlin: 6:07

Easiest pregnancy, easiest, I can't say exactly the same for the second one. but, yeah, my first pregnancy was pretty easy. I was at the time, kind of a runner and I was training for a half marathon when I got pregnant. I didn't make it to the actual half marathon before I was like, nah, my body's not doing this. But overall, I felt good and, no morning sickness, which leads to a whole bunch of people predicting the gender of your child, which is hilarious. But yeah, we didn't find out gender, which was fun for us and it makes everybody kind of mad, which is sort of hilarious. but yeah, pregnancy was great for me. It also made me feel really good about my body. I was like, Oh, I like this bump thing, which I know isn't true for everyone. So I didn't get thrown for a loop until birth.

Kiona: 6:53

We will definitely get to that. I love how you just said pregnancy made you feel good about your body. I also felt the same because I was like, I'm creating life. I am a goddess. like I felt like I had the power and the bump thing was fun. And, feeling like the little creature inside your body as they get bigger and it's like really kind of creepy and alien ish and then normal at the same time. You're like, what is this? So I appreciate That point that you just mentioned.

Kaitlin: 7:27

yeah,

Kiona: 7:28

so let's go ahead and dive into your birth then, because you had just mentioned it threw you for a loop. So let's talk about it.

Kaitlin: 7:35

yeah, I think it starts a little bit in the preparation for birth and sort of my family history and their experiences. So, my mom has, four sisters and, four out of five, including my mother, were sort of like natural birth, like no medication warrior women. and, they were really proud of that, which is awesome, but it set an expectation. Even my mom's, other sister who did actually have an epidural, she was the one who gently encouraged me to consider that as an option, still had a vaginal birth. And so anyway, these are these expectations, like these huge expectations that were sort of set for me. Just. Based on the experience of the women in my family who had given birth, and, took a childbirth education class and it was hypnobirthing. It's actually been so long. I don't exactly remember all of it, but again, it was sort of like in that class it was like, yeah, you breathe your baby out and if you practice enough, you have the control, which is just like not, I learned not actually true, right? That there's always a certain amount of control that you have to let go of. And, In a way, I also felt like that, the childbirth education experience, I sort of walked away with unrealistic expectations, based on what I was taught. So, I had chosen the hospital, but I had chosen hospital midwives, again, to just have the most natural, unmedicated, I don't even like the word natural anymore, but the unmedicated vaginal birth experience. and, Once we got to the time to give birth, sort of everything like out the window, first of all, I didn't go into labor. I did go into labor naturally, but I didn't go into labor until I was like 41 plus 6 or something? past the due date quite a bit, which I know is fairly common for first pregnancies. But You know, I don't know what it's like for everyone. I remember everyone saying, You'll just know when you're in labor. You'll just know. and, that was pretty much true. slow build up. I labored at home for quite a while. Everything seemed okay. and, reached that point where I just, like, couldn't stand it anymore. I couldn't talk anymore. And you call the midwives and they kind of, they can tell that you can't talk anymore and they're like, all right, it's time to come in. and, I don't know where it started, but I had a lot of back labor and I can't, my memory, it's distant enough. It's did the back labor start at home or not? I don't know. but the car ride was excruciating, like excruciating. It's about 15 minutes. It felt like a year. and when I got to the hospital, I just, I stalled out. I didn't know that I had stalled out because, things didn't get checked right away, which was fine. I was experiencing pretty excruciating back labor. the hospital wasn't very busy, so I had like tons of support. There was A student midwife there, I did not have a doula, but between my midwife, the student midwife, there were like multiple nurses able to kind of be there. I felt like I was getting tons of really positive support. Everyone was really trying to help me out. at some point they, thought, okay, it seems like maybe we've got babies just not in a good position. And so there were a lot of things they were doing to try and fix that. sort of to no avail, the, the tub we tried and I couldn't even stay in it. I, I found that, and this is true actually for both my births, I don't like to be touched, but that makes it really hard for people to help me.

Kiona: 11:03

Mm hmm.

Kaitlin: 11:04

but it just being touched felt like I was on fire, which is kind of interesting cause all the things you practice like the double hip squeeze and all this stuff, and it just like not possible, for me. so that was a challenge. and at some point, again, my memory is so fuzzy, but we decided to do a check and I had not made any progress between whatever the first check was and the second and it had been several hours. and so it was like, I'm not gonna. Have the energy to make it through this thing. so that's kind of when we went the, the route of the epidural. And I just remember like shaking to try and hold still. And I'm sure you've heard that from other folks. But it was like I couldn't hold still to do that because it just hurt so bad. My contractions weren't, there was no such thing as a break in between. that was another thing I was like, they told me in the childbirth class that it would have a contraction and then a break. And it was like, there are no breaks. it was just like constant, constant, constant, which I suspect was just that. Back pain. So once I had the epidural, I actually kind of hated it because I was like, oh my god, now I'm just stuck here. but I needed it. I really wasn't a fan of just feeling so, so stuck and not able to move. that said, again, the team that was helping me, man, they had me in a zillion different, they, you know, it wasn't anyone trying to make me do this on my back with that epidural. They were like, how strong are your arms? Let's see if we can hold you up over the bed. on all fours kind of, and, getting me on my side and trying everything they could try. And then at some point, We weren't making any progress. I guess a couple pieces of this that I missed because it's hard to remember it all at once is Along with the epidural they were noticing that my contractions were Super weak and constant My body wasn't working well for me at that point and so they did try to augment with, Pitocin, and that did help somewhat. I ultimately did dilate to 10 centimeters with an epidural, and then at that point they kind of said, Okay, you're fully dilated, but baby's not engaged yet. So that's something I talk about with people when I'm doing birth work is that we talk a lot about the dilation, but for me, like baby was still way up high. So like it wasn't really helpful to be fully dilated. and so they sort of let me hang out for a little while, try and just like take a breather, get some rest. and then at some point they said, okay, well, we just, We kind of have to try something, so I tried pushing, but she was still not fully engaged, so still pretty high, which, ultimately, I think, was what led to me going into a cesarean, so I did, Attempt to push her out for about four hours. At which point they kind of take a pause and a little bit of this is hospital policy But they were like also you've been in labor and pushing for 30 hours. Like the energy is just gone

Kiona: 14:06

Right.

Kaitlin: 14:07

And so they were like we think you should you know, consider a Caesarean, they came in, they had the OB come in to see if a vacuum was possible and she's like, nope, baby's way too high. ultimately they gave us about 30, 45 minutes to ourselves, just my husband and I, to just kind of talk about it. And accept it, if you will, cause it wasn't an emergency. I think the other piece of this is every time I pushed it appeared that she was getting more and more stressed. and so that's another piece of their recommendation, but, Yeah, ultimately, we accepted that that's what we were going to do, and, went into the operating for a cesarean, I do like to also mention, and I have along the way that I felt like I was getting really good care. I know that's not true for everyone who goes into a cesarean situation, and, Same thing with my caesarean. I was asked, do you want a clear drape? They were very good about all the sort of gentle caesarean options with me. At that point, I was like, no, I get like, I can't watch myself getting cut open and that was just and I'm not even sure that that's really what that looks like, now that I've been through it, but in my brain I was going to like, see everything. I was like, no. so anyway it wasn't fun, but you know, the hospital was doing everything in their power to make sure I was having a good experience and, in that cesarean, just some things that I think it's good for people who go into cesareans to know the anesthesia. and I think just being exhausted, I just shook. Also the operating room is really cold. so I just shook like a leaf, which kind of freaked me out cause I just wasn't ready for it. but, they got her out. They explained the whole process along the way. they put her with me as soon as they could. it's not quite as right away as it is with a vaginal birth. and then I don't really remember anything for the next, 12 hours. There's, there's photos of, Nurses and my husband helping her latch while I'm, like, not really conscious, that I don't remember, which sucks. but, the upside and some really beautiful moments are, like, my husband holding her and doing a lot of skin to skin with her because, um, I wasn't, Just it just wasn't possible. I was just too tired. Um, yeah, I haven't cried about this in a while But here I am doing that. so yeah that I mean that that was that first birth Experience, and it was hard and I think mostly because of my sort of intense expectations and this sense of control, which is kind of why I talked about I'm this person who went to the midwives before I was pregnant, right? Like everything was planned. and, Not having any control over that plan even after you feel like you've done all the right things. I mean, I think some things I probably didn't mention. I also had pelvic floor therapy while I was pregnant. Like, I like did all the things, you know. Um, and it just wasn't in the cards, and and same thing like I, like I mentioned several times. I had great support in the hospital. It just, it just wasn't there for me, and you can go over a million what ifs, but that's, that's just what happens sometimes. I mentioned I didn't have a doula. I should mention that this is pre COVID and both my mother and my brother were there as support people and my brother had recently, supported his wife through birth and, his wife had said, Ben's amazing. Like, if you want someone who's like a doula at your birth, you know. And he was. And my mom was also awesome. my biggest disappointment was that they didn't get to experience the birth. I was like, dang it. I remember my mom being really excited being like, well, I've given birth, but I've never seen a birth, but it is what it is. but yeah, she, she and my brother were incredibly supportive through that as well. So I just, I was surrounded by support and even, I think the last thing to say about that birth is the next day, again, I was just like devastated. this OB came in and, so she ultimately became my OB for my next, pregnancy because she came in and she said, this happened to me too. And she said, I'm an OB. Like I was supposed to be able to do it right. Quote unquote, right. You know, and I couldn't, and like, it just happens. And she was. She was so compassionate, that when we went to get pregnant the next time I was like, I got to figure out what her name was because of course I wasn't asking her name but it's all in the records. So I was like, again, my planning personality, I was like, who is that person? Because she gets it. and, anyway, she ultimately became my doctor when I, had my second baby. So yeah, that's the story, of the birth of Esmé is her name.

Kiona: 19:32

Mm. I love the name Esmé. I love that. I only know one other Esmé. Which is beautiful. So your story definitely has a lot of ups and downs and I hear the importance of your preparations to you. you did all the things pelvic floor therapy going beforehand and checking out OB's and who's going to be in your care. And I love that you did all of that. And I think that all of that still helped. how your birth ended up, meaning like you did the preparation to make a decision. And I think that it's really important to mention here once again, that this wasn't an emergency cesarean, which gave you so much more opportunity to have more of an individualized form of cesarean birth, like asking for a clear drape. I think that's super cool that your providers ask that. And even though you were like, absolutely not. I think it's really cool that they even put that on the table for you. And, that made me come up with this question because as a birth doula, I have supported clients in the OR and it's the lights. That people actually see themselves in. Have you, did you happen to look at the lights at all?

Kaitlin: 20:51

No, I did not, you know, I really didn't. But I,

Kiona: 20:56

Maybe it's a good thing.

Kaitlin: 20:57

you know, you sometimes have these like false memories too, because, so my husband took pictures and you weren't allowed to take videos, but you know, your phone sometimes takes the moving picture.

Kiona: 21:07

hmm.

Kaitlin: 21:08

And so we have two pictures of Esmé being born. And it took me a long time to look at them, but now I love them. and I can see her being bored now. And sometimes my memory tricks me into thinking I actually saw it. But I think it's the pictures. And, the other really cool thing is that Esmé loves looking at them. She thinks it's really

Kiona: 21:29

so cool.

Kaitlin: 21:31

and so there's so much, Stuff now that makes that birth also really fun to talk about, Yes, sometimes it's tears, but sometimes it's actually like, this is pretty cool. And my kid thinks it's pretty cool that she was born this way, and her sister was born that way, and, and I do think that's a credit to what you said is like, because of the preparation, I specifically chose a hospital that had a reputation for a low number of cesareans, but it doesn't mean they don't still happen and had a reputation for really taking care of people. and, and it, that was really important to me. So,

Kiona: 22:10

And it sounds like that did come into fruition still. you were really taken care of. And maybe that's why they offered all those things to you, is because that's their norm, kind of thing. You

Kaitlin: 22:22

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kiona: 22:24

I know this is something that you didn't want, but here are ways that you can make it personalized. And I think that's cool. But yeah, so during your story, you mentioned how Baby wasn't engaged, and I think that's a really important point in this. And the reason why I say that is because baby is part of the birth too. a lot of the time people are thinking, what do I have to do to prepare for birth and, and all these things. But there are two, people involved in the birth. It's you and your babe. And so, your babe was just not in the best position and they were really cozy. And they were like, I'm not ready to come out. It is 41 plus something and I don't want to come out yet. It's nice and warm in here. So, but you did also mention that you didn't know the sex of your baby beforehand. How was finding out that she was a girl for you?

Kaitlin: 23:19

was pretty funny and the reason I say it's funny is because I mentioned my mom has four sisters She has one brother then the next generation the generation that I am in There were nine girls born and one boy so when Esmé, when I got pregnant with Esmé, she would be my mom's second grandchild. But it was just like, well, of course it will be a girl because, because the whole family is just, girls. my husband's family is much smaller. So there's not like a trend, so when she was born and Dean, announced that she was a girl, it was just, I don't know, we just thought it was funny because we were like, of course she is She couldn't be anything else. And as I said, I have two daughters. So it was great. We didn't have expectations. I mean, I, either though, there was no like strong wish for, any gender in particular. yeah.

Kiona: 24:15

I think that's awesome. I think that's really cool. another thing that you mentioned that I think is important here is going back to your preparations of how much you prepared and all of these things. Your experience didn't go as you anticipated, right? It didn't go as you had planned it and for that reason is why whenever I support clients I never call it birth. plan. I call it birth preferences. And I don't know if you do that with your clients now, because you have that experience of your own, but also as much as we want to, we can't control the outcome. regardless of what provider we choose and all of that, we cannot promise a specific outcome. And so preparing for the unexpected is a really good way to go. And just kind of being open minded about what that looks like, and that's why I think birth workers are really important, or having providers that are open minded and well rounded about options that people can take. I don't know, what would you as a birth worker that supports postpartum particularly, how would you feel about that statement?

Kaitlin: 25:29

Oh, 100%. I think a huge part of my sort of grieving, healing process was like, and a huge part of personal growth for me was learning to let go. and, realizing, that there's no, There's no perfect. and, and I could talk about that all day long also with my second birth, which, was a successful VBAC, but it still wasn't perfect. and, and, Yes, I think with preferences, I think I go a step further actually. and especially, when I'm working with someone on coaching them about preparing for a VBAC is I'm like, I know you really want the VBAC. You should also have your preferences for what a C section looks like ready.

Kiona: 26:12

Absolutely.

Kaitlin: 26:14

because. especially in that situation, but frankly, anyone giving birth, the c section rates somewhere around 30%, And it depends on the hospital, obviously. But, it can happen. It can happen. So just being ready for that happening so that you can advocate for yourself, I think is, super important. And I also think, the biggest challenge for me in accepting my cesarean wasn't because of the care I got, but was because of my expectations. And so, helping people manage those expectations from the get go, versus after the fact i think is absolutely crucial and when you get into postpartum which is most of what I do, if that hasn't happened, like being there to help them let go, and, help them realize like how powerful they really are and what they did and how strong they are for going through that. I also think is super crucial. I have some affirmation cards that I bought from another doula that one of them says, like your baby was born, how they were supposed to be born. and I think that's a phrase that's helpful and just letting go. Right.

Kiona: 27:16

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's important, because as a birth worker, if I have a client, that did not anticipate on ending up in a cesarean, or it wasn't planned, or it was an emergency and it was really scary, regardless, even when they do have a planned cesarean, I always talk to anybody who has ended up on the OR table, and I, Reassure them that yes, you did birth your baby. Just because it wasn't a vaginal birth does not mean you did not birth your baby. your baby had to come out of you. That is birth, right? You are part of that process. And that's really hard for some people to, to process and believe if that was not their anticipation. If it was not, what was expected. so yeah. Let's go ahead and dive into the conception process of your second daughter. How was that for you?

Kaitlin: 28:14

Kind of identical. Took a little while. It was planned. little bit different in that it was mid pandemic. we conceived end of August, early September, 2020. And there was some, thoughtfulness that went into that decision. I actually had a, an appointment with my OB again in advance of getting pregnant. But in this case to just say we didn't know a lot and we started trying right sort of at the very beginning of the pandemic when everybody was like Clorox wiping their groceries. And so, yeah, I had an appointment with her and I just said, is this like a safe choice? Is it okay to keep trying to have a kiddo? And, she had really a good advice for me, which was like, we have no idea how long this is going to last, She was like, you know, I'm not going to make the choice for you, but it was kind of like you could be waiting a really long time or no time at all. And that information sort of let me let go and say there's no perfect time again for it's again, letting it go of the control. I can't control this pandemic thing. and I knew that it could take me a while to get pregnant, which made me nervous because, I was getting older and it just, it's harder and harder the older you get, all of that. So, ultimately we just decided to go for it and it took several months and then, yeah, she was due April 2021, which ended up being like perfect timing. Like I will take that with, not control because I was able to get vaccinated about two weeks before she was born.

Kiona: 29:48

Nice.

Kaitlin: 29:50

so anyway, the conception and pregnancy journey was different. I had morning sickness this time. I had not had that last time. And I was like, oh crap, what is this? especially when you got a toddler. so Esmé was two at the time. Physically, it was just a little harder. You know, I had had a cesarean, not everything in my body was working quite perfect. I did, continue to do pelvic floor therapy. I went to a chiropractor for a little while. I've mixed feelings about that. It was just a tiny bit harder physically. I also think as a result of the pandemic, I was working at home, which meant I wasn't taking that walk to the bus stop that I had always taken or the walk to the office from the, I got a lot more exercise in my first pregnancy. it was apparent in this one. And so I think the body confidence thing wasn't quite as much there because I was like, whoa, like this is impacting me in such a different way. And I think you hear that a lot with second kids too. I mean, pandemic or no pandemic, it's just that your body's already been through a lot. and now you're also having to pick up this other kid all the time.

Kiona: 30:54

Right.

Kaitlin: 30:55

so, that pregnancy was kind of, that way throughout, morning sickness ended when it typically does, it wasn't any, more intense I know some folks have really intense sickness for a longer time and I didn't have any of that, All at the same time, I was preparing for a VBAC, with a super VBAC friendly provider. Like I said, it was the OB that I had met in the hospital, the day after my birth. and, was still very Still, I still fully, I hadn't fully let go because I was like I want this so bad, you know But on that same token, I definitely had that sort of cesarean backup plan I knew that like I didn't have as much control over it this time which is also why I hired a birth doula this time and Partially because of that, partially because, pandemic, I knew that I couldn't invite anyone else in the room with me other than my husband. and a doula. and that turned out to be a phenomenal decision, and a great experience. let's see. Did I do anything in particular? I did some more spinning baby stuff, so I don't think I fully mentioned. I talked about Esmé being not in a great position. So she ultimately was sunny side up. So she was totally facing the wrong direction. And so I ended up doing a lot of spinning babies exercises at home to just sort of encourage my next baby to be in the right place. Whether or not that did anything I don't know. And I'm not, I'm not, in any way certified with spinning babies. But I think I know a lot of people swear by it and, and certainly, Astrid ended up in the right position. So i'll take it. I'm a fan of doing things, even if we don't know for sure what's helping. because it feels like you have agency, when you can do that. I took, a VBAC preparation class, which was really great, and learned some more things around preparation sort of a few weeks before my birth that I could be just doing to get my body ready. and then Astrid chose to, stay in for a very long time again. So she was even later than Esmé and I did not go into labor, on my own. So, I think my gestation period is just a little longer than other people's. and so, hospital policy where I was at, was that if you went past 42 weeks, you couldn't have a VBAC. So, I needed to induce before 42 weeks. Now, not all hospitals will induce for a VBAC. So, that was actually a relief that that was an option, because they can't use the same methods of induction necessarily for a VBAC that they can for someone who's never had a cesarean. they have to use a, a Foley or a Cook's catheter. so anyway. I went into the hospital for my induction so that I could give birth before 42 weeks. and, had what's called a Cooke's catheter. I think people hear more about a Foley, but they're really similar. and, because I had a, poor Bishop's score. It was not ready to give birth. So it was a, it was a long induction. they put the bulb in, which the cook's catheter is actually two balloons. There's one inside the vaginal canal and one outside and they fill them up to open up your cervix. and, for me, that was actually, not a super painful experience. They put that in and then, in the evening I took a Benadryl and slept through the night and the next morning I was five centimeters. Ta da. So in that way, it was like, dream induction in that way. and then we sort of spent a day doing nothing because So unlike my first birth, the hospital was very busy and they did not have enough nurses to administer Pitocin safely. So I just hug out and I didn't go into labor on my own at that point. And so we hung out for about a day until they had enough staff to start to administer Pitocin, which is what they do next in that kind of induction. And they sort of just steadily increase it. And, for a long time, it wasn't really causing much, some very, like, teeny contractions, nothing crazy. and I think you hear this from a lot of people, but it kind of went zero to sixty. It was like, it was like, Oh, this is fine, this is fine, this is so not fine. So, yeah, we got to that place where all of a sudden it was like, very, very intense, very, very quickly. And, the, yeah, those contractions were coming on fast and hard, and one thing in hindsight, the one thing, and this is where I talk about, again, you just like don't fully have control, and not every doula knows every trick in the book, and neither did we, and I look back and I'm like, we could have turned it down. Why didn't we turn it down? And it's because I think my body took over, right? So it was kind of double time. my body would have done it on its own, but, it's, again, it's hindsight's 20, 20 for all these things. and, anyway, ultimately, I say all that because the pain got so intense and I actually had a huge amount of pain right across my scar, which is super frightening for someone who's going into a VBAC because all you can think about is uterine rupture.

Kiona: 36:10

Right.

Kaitlin: 36:11

And so I was like, there's so much pain. And, you know, it was like, well, let's ask, let's ask the OB if that's something we worry about. Cause the thought was, well, that will calm the fear. And it didn't because the OB was like, well I can't say that that's all perfectly fine. We should keep an eye on that. and she was just being super honest. Right. But I was like, Oh, like I wish you just lie to me so that I could just like calm down because I think I am someone, and I think this is true for my first birth and my second, that the sort of like pain, fear, tension cycle is so real for me.

Kiona: 36:45

Mhm.

Kaitlin: 36:46

and so that, Just creates fear. And so ultimately I was like, we got to get the epidural so I can just chill out, and, and that this wasn't my first rodeo with an epidural. So that was, it was fine. It was what it was. again, I was like hoping, but this time it was a little more like, Yeah, I know how this goes and it's also just like not worth torturing myself when I know that I tend to just get more and more worked up.

Kiona: 37:15

Mm hmm.

Kaitlin: 37:17

So I got the epidural and same thing, I had some help, getting into different positions. It wasn't quite as much help and this is where having a doula was like so crucial this time because the hospital was busy. So I didn't have a, student midwife and a midwife and a nurse helping me get in different positions. I needed to rely on my doula to help me and my husband. I was super grateful to have her there. from there, I think, the birth progressed pretty normally. It didn't take too long. forever. Astrid was in a fine position. at some point, I had reached 10 centimeters and, there was some concern about heart decels. I think you hear that a lot. So they ultimately put a, monitor on her head as opposed to on my stomach, because they were just having trouble finding any of that. And again, they're a little bit more intense about all of these things when you're having a VBAC, then they might be if you'd never had a cesarean. So anyway, they did that, which was actually quite helpful because she was mostly doing just fine. and I discovered for me with an epidural, if I was on my side, the epidural medication actually only was in like one half of my body. So I could feel the other side, which helped me push a lot more effectively. I had also, I think the biggest benefit of pelvic floor therapy was learning how to push without, holding your breath, which was interesting because that was not how the nurses wanted me to push. and I was like, well, you have to let me just at least right now because Astrid was doing okay. towards the end there were issues because she had a cord wrap and so, they started to get nervous and that's when sort of the purple pushing or holding your breath, if you will, was like, we really need you to do that or we may end up in a cesarean situation. I don't know if I agree with them, but it's fine because, ultimately, She came out. there was a vacuum used at the end. That's another one of those things where I'm like, was that really necessary? I'm not sure it was. So I'm saying those things because I still think hospitals, even good ones, tend to err on the side of interventions that I sort of wonder about and ultimately I ended up with some tearing. I'm not sure I would have torn as badly if I could have just like done it my own way. but I also don't know. Maybe everything they recommended was totally what I needed and that's just me wanting it to go a different way. And so I think it's, it's hard to know, but ultimately, I got my VBAC, which was awesome, and a really healing experience for me. Baby was on me before they even cut the cord. She pooped all over me, like to a point that even the nurses were like, wow, like all over me. But I just say that because it was, it was funny. It wasn't, it didn't even feel gross. It was just like, this is insane. and, I just felt really good to have that baby right there, right then. And I was like, like fully conscious. It was like, I'm here. I'm like, I'm not like in Lala land, like unable to keep my eyes open. and so in that way it was super healing. I didn't talk about my breastfeeding journey with Esmé. It ultimately was great, it was a slower start. I will say I'm blessed in the breastfeeding category. I have really not, experienced a ton of challenge there. But with Astrid it was even better cause it was like instant and I knew what I was doing and she knew what she was doing and, it just felt so natural and good. so that birth was just, I don't know, it was super healing and, Again, wasn't perfect and there were things I was annoyed by and I'm kind of still annoyed by but nothing that was devastating in the same way that my cesarean was devastating. And I think that's a little bit of just getting the birth I wanted, but also just, learning to let go of those annoyances and think of them more like annoyances and not It has to be this one way. She was here and I got to experience that vaginal birth and, yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't have anything else to say about that, so. Yeah. I mean, you can see I'm smiling as I'm crying, right? Like it's just, it was just a different, it's just a different experience, so.

Kiona: 41:35

And I think that, I So I So I I want to touch on your postpartum because we didn't the last time and I forgot to mention that, but I'm happy to hear that this was redemptive in a way for you. Because you got to make more decisions, but it was still hard. And I think that's an important thing to pay attention to, is Even though birth goes differently, it's still not perfect. It's still not exactly as planned. I'm sure you didn't anticipate needing to get an induction for your VBAC, and then, it starts to roll, and then, your hospital was very busy the second time, and so there were different things that were completely out of your control that weren't even related to you or your body that you had to deal with and work around. So, I'm just happy to hear that this was a more positive experience for you. I did also read in your guest request form that your postpartum recovery was a lot different than anticipated with this vaginal birth, but also Before we dive into the postpartum for this one, even though we're here, I kind of wanna go in a linear way. I want to go back to the postpartum of your first and talk about how that was for you, how your breastfeeding was, how your emotions were, especially with having a little bit of a harder time connecting with her. And then we'll dive into the postpartum of your second

Kaitlin: 42:56

Postpartum with Esmé, my first was hard because of expectations. Yes. Surgery is also really hard. but ultimately I think I had the best cesarean anyone could have. My surgeon is also a quilter. Like you can't, like you can't see my scar. So I just say that because from a pain perspective, it was pretty manageable. I never needed narcotics. ibuprofen and Tylenol was okay for me. I needed to put a pillow over my stomach to laugh or, or cough or whatever and be careful. I had a supportive spouse who had time off who could bring the baby to me and all of that. So from a physical perspective, like looking back, not too bad. with one caveat, I had the worst rash of my life and it was the middle of the summer. So she was born July 1st and, I had this insane rash like right after she was born. and so that did make breastfeeding hard because it was like putting a baby on hives.

Kiona: 44:02

hmm. What would be the cause of the rash?

Kaitlin: 44:07

Well, it's like kind of wild because they thought that it was the disinfectant they put on your stomach for a cesarean. but it happened on birth two, so we know that's not true, but I don't know. I, I like, don't know. so I, yeah, I broke out in hives and, we cloth diapered this baby and there's this like Velcro scratch and it's hot and we don't have air conditioning so learning how to breastfeed her was a little bit trickier, finding different positions where she wasn't like across my stomach or I would put like ice packs over my stomach and then a blanket over that But I say all that and my body was made for breastfeeding and my kids were made for breastfeeding, you know We talked about how it's just it there's always two people involved in this but like she just no trouble with latching I had supply and in fact, I am like this weird Unicorn that has plenty of supply but also doesn't leak. so I feel really, really blessed, actually, in that department. and because birth had been so disappointing to me, I was absolutely determined. Like, it never even occurred to me that we would ever use formula. and I was lucky enough I wasn't having trouble, so it just like never came up. well, it came up one occasion, which I feel like happens to everyone. the first pediatrician visit when they're like, they've lost 10 percent of their weight. Maybe this doesn't happen to everyone, but it definitely happened. And then I was like, oh, hell no. like I had a weekend to get her weight up and I was like, we're just gonna feed constantly. So a little bit of that is like probably not. Super emotionally healthy because I was just like, I'm going to make one thing go my way. but ultimately led to an amazing breastfeeding relationship. And, yeah, the challenge I think for me was more the emotional sort of aftermath of not getting the birth that I expected. feeling like a failure around that, especially because. of how people in my family had birthed. the expectations, I think frankly set by my childbirth education class, even by my midwives, like I, I just think. Everybody's trying so hard to get you that natural birth that when it doesn't happen, nobody's been set up to deal with that, disappointment. And so emotionally, because she was born kind of the wrong way, if you will, I just felt totally emotionally disconnected from her. I just was like, I don't, I think that's why. That's the other thing. I think this happens to a lot of people. They don't feel immediately connected with their baby. I also wasn't someone who talked to my babies in the womb. I wasn't really connected to my kids in pregnancy. so is it possible that it was always going to take me some time? Totally. I have no idea. but ultimately for me it was when she smiled. She like became a person. And all of a sudden it was like, you're a person. I love you.

Kiona: 47:08

Yeah.

Kaitlin: 47:08

And not that I didn't love her, but I loved her instinctually before. And that was when I felt like emotionally connected. It was like, oh, you're a human being. And you're my human being. so it came, but it came slower. And that's another one of those things that was hard for me to wrap my head around. It was like, why don't I feel connected to you? Like something's wrong with that. Yeah. So anyway, that, yeah, that was challenging. I also struggled. I stayed home with her for a full year. and I struggled on and off with just, I'm not someone who talked to babies. I hadn't been around babies. I had trouble, figuring out how do you play with a baby who doesn't talk? and you know, at the time it was pre pandemic and my spouse, once he went back to work, was there a lot of hours cause there was a commute. And so I would get to like four o'clock and he still had an hour of work and then an hour commute to go. And I'd be like, Oh my God, like, how am I going to survive? so I think. I had tons of anxiety. did I have a postpartum mood disorder? I don't know. Probably. you know, when I think about it, I like, I really was just barely surviving for a long time. but ultimately, I started finding more purpose. My body was healing. I did ultimately go back to work, which I actually think was really good for me. another piece of postpartum challenges for me was just like no sleep. I'm not, people always say to nap or sleep when the baby sleeps and I'm not a nap, like I don't know how to nap. and so, a lot of that feeling like I can't survive or I don't have the energy to play with this baby was like, I'm just too tired.

Kiona: 48:41

Mm hmm.

Kaitlin: 48:42

so anyway, that's kind of a quick and dirty of that postpartum, but yeah, it was really challenging. And I think when I look back on it, I kind of think, Oh, like if I had known to look for support maybe, or if I had known a few more things that I know now I would have Sort of raised. I don't know. I would have found some support and I just like didn't really Realize that what I was going through wasn't like totally normal and you know whether that was rooted in the difficult birth or just like being a parent for the first time Being sleep deprived is probably a little bit of all of it But that was another experience that was information for me to be able to impact my second experience. And, and, yeah, I, that's kind of, I guess that's all I have to say about that. I don't know. I haven't talked about that much, but.

Kiona: 49:28

Yeah. No, I think that is extremely relatable. having that experience of kind of not knowing what the heck to do with a baby. okay, they're here now. Uh, you know, I feel like that is very normal because obviously throughout pregnancy, you're going to give birth and Hopefully come home with a baby in arms and then when the baby does come home with you and you are sitting there and Just doing all the things Feeding changing helping them sleep feeding changing helping them sleep over and over and over and over again You kind of lose track of time You also you had said you struggled with the napping and like sleep when baby sleeps. Honestly, I will say when you look at a New parent and you say oh just sleep when the baby sleeps. That is the worst piece of advice you could ever give Ever. Because it's like, oh, you're holding your baby and they're sleeping. What do you do? Just lay on the floor and like hold your baby and sleep? it's not as easy as it sounds. You can't just drop everything and fall asleep right when your baby's asleep. And then usually when you do fall asleep or try to, your baby's like, what? What? You're sleeping too? Heck no. We got to get up and do things.

Kaitlin: 50:39

So true.

Kiona: 50:40

So it's so, it's so much easier said than done. And it always kind of shocks me when people who have experienced the newborn phase themselves offer that as advice. I'm like, don't say that. but I love how you also acknowledged the fact that you said your body was meant for breastfeeding. your body was built for breastfeeding because it just did the thing. And the whole having a good supply with no leakage, that is a unicorn characteristic because I was always searching for some kind of breast pad so that I didn't leak through my clothes, literally walking around with dried sour breast milk all over me all the time. And it was just That's a bonus for you. Good job.

Kaitlin: 51:21

It has a bonus.

Kiona: 51:23

Yeah. so let's go ahead and dive into what your postpartum experience with Astrid was like.

Kaitlin: 51:31

Yeah. so I got the same rash. No idea.

Kiona: 51:35

That is intersting. I will say.

Kaitlin: 51:37

No idea. I will also add, and I won't go too much into this, but as a result of, giving birth, it, started with Esmé and progressively got worse with Astrid as I developed rheumatoid arthritis. So part of me just wonders if the rash is a part of some kind of autoimmune response, but honestly, no doctors have been able to tell me. And it goes away after about a month but a month long rash is like, no joke, right after you've given birth. so I had that. I also, had this moment of Oh my gosh, did I just make things so much worse for myself? Because now I've had a cesarean, I have to deal with all the repercussions of that. And now I've had a vaginal birth where I've torn, and I was convinced. This is where For me, that six week appointment, was too far away. I was convinced that I had a horrible prolapse of some kind because it felt like there was a golf ball in my vagina. So I was so anxious about that until I could get in. but I'm a little aggressive and I was like, No, I need you to see me now. So that's, that's a strength of mine. I was like, I'm not waiting. and so I got in within two weeks postpartum and it turned out I had a vaginal cyst, but two weeks since postpartum sounds short, but it feels so long. and so I just had a ton of anxiety in that first bit. of like, Wow, I've destroyed my body in two ways. That was dumb, and, again, I think that makes it kind of hard to focus on the joy of having your baby with you. and so that first couple of weeks was challenging because I was just scared that I was going to have to live with this horrible thing I felt forever and ever. And maybe that's more common than I even realized, but It's another like where I was like, wow, they really just can't tell you everything. So you always hear people saying, I wish they'd have told me this or I wish they told me that I wish it, but they just can't like, there's no way to predict all the different curves, the curve balls that you're going to get thrown. There's just no way. And ultimately, that resolved, and I healed up pretty well, and I don't have a prolapse. It would have also been okay if I had. It just, it just gave me a lot of anxiety, and I like to talk about that because people going into a VBAC are always told vaginal birth is so much easier to recover from.

Kiona: 53:57

hmm,

Kaitlin: 53:59

And I had a pretty physically simple cesarean recovery. The pain wasn't too bad. I have pictures of me taking a walk at the park a week or so after my cesarean. I couldn't walk around the block after my VBAC until about a month later, maybe even closer to that, six weeks, because of how much heaviness, because I had this painful, uncomfortable cyst, Ultimately, in both cases, my body healed and I don't regret that VBAC. I really don't. I had moments where I was like, Oh crap, but like, no, I'm so, I'm so glad I had that experience, but I think we tend to sell the unmedicated vaginal birth as like the best thing you've ever experienced always. And that's just not true. And it doesn't mean it's a bad experience, it's just different. And Yeah, I just think it's important to know because again, I think that you have a case of sort of anxiety as a result of like Expectations and assumptions and the main complication I do think you hear about from a lot of people is like really bad tearing or prolapses And so it was like well, obviously I have both of those Um, you know Um So, so yeah, I don't know that ultimately that postpartum, while the physical recovery took quite a bit longer Emotionally was much better for me. I felt much more connected to Astrid right away I think it was also such, it was such a beautiful thing to watch her and her sister Like not every kid is like this, but Esmé was in love her sister, like, in love. in fact, she had the hardest time in my late pregnancy, mainly because I, that was when she learned I wasn't going to be able to pick her up all the time. And maybe she sensed the change and went through her sort of grieving process then, but once Astrid was here, man, they, and they're still like, they're pretty thick as thieves. That was a beautiful thing for me and breastfeeding was like once again quite easy even the rash It was like well, I've been here. So I at least I know which lotion works and like what to do and So I think there's something about that sort of second round Especially when the sibling, you know does respond really well to baby that It's just a lot easier for me. I know different people have different experiences whether it's like harder to go from zero to one or one to two and I was like one to two is way better. from a baby care perspective and expectations like, oh, like I don't, I don't have to start reading to her or playing games with her like right away. She's a potato. I just get to cuddle with her and that's fine, the cutest potato ever, but

Kiona: 56:34

Yes, the cutest potato. I even go as far to say as, my babies were the cutest poop I've ever had.

Kaitlin: 56:42

guess it's true.

Kiona: 56:44

Um. But yes, oh, I love that. And I absolutely love that the relationship that your kiddos have together is so strong because that is not the case for everyone. And I will say that as a parent myself, I have the amazing privilege and I am so fortunate to have all of my, all three of my kiddos have really strong connections with each other and to watch their relationships just like flourish, especially as the younger one actually starts to have a personality and she is the bossiest of bossy kiddos. She's a sour patch. That's the biggest and easiest way to describe her. but yes, I absolutely love that you shared your stories with me today. I love that you shared your postpartum stories with me. And even though there were ups and downs in both your birth stories and your postpartum, it humanizes birth so much. It just shows that birth is not this magical and like perfect thing that happens for everyone. As you said, vaginal unmedicated birth is kind of quote unquote marketed as or portrayed to be because it's hard. You are bringing another human being into the world and there are so many unexpected things that can happen and so many things that are out of your control regardless of how much you plan and prepare. The thing, I do want to ask though, is how did your personal birth experiences steer you toward birth work?

Kaitlin: 58:18

That's kind of a couple things. I knew I wasn't getting tons of fulfillment out of my, I was a corporate career. consultant for a long time. I also knew I wanted to try to be an entrepreneur. I was like, I want to know what it's like to do my own thing and to be responsible for all of it. and so after having my maternity leave with Astrid, I knew that I was quitting my job and that I, was going to just explore lots of stuff. So it wasn't automatically, I'm going to go do birth work. I ended up meeting a pelvic health therapist, who was interested in opening a multidisciplinary wellness center. we worked together for a few months and realized that, there were some legal hurdles that just kind of made her vision sort of impossible. Um, ended up parting ways, but that's sort of what led me down the path of birth work. And I was like, okay, well, what am I going to do with everything I've learned? so that's why the name is Kith and Kin Care Collective, because it was originally for that business. and, just went ahead and started taking classes. So I took, Erica Davis, whole body pregnancies, childbirth education. And then I took BADT's full spectrum doula course, and finally got my certification like two weeks ago. and, a couple of other, trainings, and just, started to think about what's my part in this? so it was a slow path. but, all influenced by my own experience because a big part of leaving my old career was this is like really heavy brain work for me, but there's no heart. So there's just like no heart. And so both wanting to start a business and wanting to find business where like my heart was being pulled. I think it was this meandering path that I was led into. and so, started really taking on, full time clients, about a year ago. and, it's been a fun journey. and I learn new stuff every day because everybody's challenges are totally different. But, I think that's another reason I like it. It's brain work and it's heart work, I feel really good about the support that I'm giving to people and I don't know. Yeah, it, it, I don't know, a little bit instinctual, I guess. It wasn't necessarily perfectly intentional, but here I am.

Kiona: 1:00:35

Yeah, and I think that's super awesome because hard work is where everybody wants to be. At least from what I've ever talked about, like, even if people are in corporate, there's ways for people to have corporate jobs and have their heart really be into it. You know, that is their passion. And so I think everybody has the hope and intention that one day when they get a job or find a job or create a job, it's based off of something that they truly love. So they don't. not want to go into work, to have that passion of even though it's hard, I can't wait to go into work or go support this family or do my taxes, even though it sucks. But it's because it's something that I want to do and I love doing and it's worth the effort, so that's beautiful. And I love how you got onto your journey and not everybody's journey into birth work is so linear or direct. And so I think that it's awesome that you found your way here and are supporting families. I want to go ahead and close off this interview with just three final questions for you. My first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth, and postpartum?

Kaitlin: 1:01:44

Prepare or create birth preferences that include the outcome you want and one or two other outcomes that you don't want but how you would want it to go, if it ended up going that way.

Kiona: 1:01:58

I think that's great advice. preparing for the unexpected, even though that's not where you want to go.

Kaitlin: 1:02:03

Yeah, yeah.

Kiona: 1:02:04

Yeah, that's really great advice. My next question is, what is one resource that we can share with our listeners on your behalf?

Kaitlin: 1:02:14

One resource, I have, on my website, a guide to me and me meaning you, it's just a download. You don't have to give me your email address or anything, but you download and either print it out or you can type in it, all the different ways that other people can take care of you. So not everybody's going to hire a postpartum doula and that's fine. but it's things like, I like to be hugged or don't touch me. It's if, you can hold the baby. Yes. Yes. But ask first. No, please don't hold my baby. and there's a whole bunch of questions about foods you want to eat, comfort foods, your favorite restaurants. those are some classic things, but it's two or three pages and, you can fill up as much or as little as you want and then put it on your fridge for people or send it to people in an email so they know how to take care of you after you have a baby because I think we don't always know how to take care of people. so if you can do that in pregnancy, Yeah. I love that resource. I love that resource for myself. So,

Kiona: 1:03:14

Yeah, I think that's great. And I think it's absolutely needed and necessary because a lot of people really, really plan and prep and do all the things they can for pregnancy and birth. But Postpartum tends to get the short end of the stick, so if we can really have any kind of preparation towards that, I think that's great. go ahead and say your full website. So what is your website?

Kaitlin: 1:03:42

have a shortened URL that makes it easier for everyone, but it's www. kak. care. There's no dot com in it. so www. kak. care.

Kiona: 1:03:55

Awesome. Okay. That is awesome. So I will also put that website in the show notes of this episode. well, my final question for you. is if you could describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Kaitlin: 1:04:11

Oh, one word. I'm like there's so many words for that first one. One word to describe my first birth, my cesarean birth, I think challenging.

Kiona: 1:04:27

That's a good one.

Kaitlin: 1:04:29

and my second birth, would be empowering.

Kiona: 1:04:34

Awesome. I love those. And not that how I feel about those words matters at all, but I feel like they fit really well with your stories and I can hear those words being true based off of how you explained your stories. So Yeah, awesome. Well, Kaitlin, I really, really love and appreciate that you came up on the podcast today and shared your stories and I'm excited to share them with the world. So thank you.

Kaitlin: 1:05:04

Yeah. Thank you.

Kiona: 1:05:15

During this interview, Kaitlin brought up so many important points. Many of the things she brought up proved once again, that every single birth is unique. Even though it's really common for individuals that are pregnant to compare their births to the people around them. There is no guarantee that your birth is going to end up like your family members or your aunts or your grandma's. There's also no guarantee that as much prepping as you do, your birth will end up as you expect it to be, which is why you have heard me say time and time again, that as you are pregnant, it's important to create birth preferences because when you have a birth plan, 99% of the time that plan does not play out as expected. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it means it just needed some adjustments and things changed and that is birth. So Katelyn, I want to say thank you for sharing your birth stories, as well as sharing how you got into birth work. And I really look forward to sharing your resource of the guide to me, with all of my listeners. And as for you listeners, I would really love for you to join the Facebook community because it is meant just for you. So in order to find the Facebook community, please go to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/Facebook, and you can request to join and I will admit you in, and we will talk about all the things. And remember if you want to share your birth story on the podcast, just head over to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/guest-request-form. Now in our next episode, we will be talking with Kirstin Spitz. She will be sharing her two personal birth experiences and what it was like to give birth in the middle of grad school and what accommodations they did not give her. As well as what it was like to give birth during the first year of the pandemic while running a business. All right, friends, I've missed you. And I will see you again in a couple of weeks. Bye. For now.