56-Kirsten Spitz-2 Vaginal Births-Logan & Lincoln-Apex Chiropractic WA

In this episode, Kirsten talks about getting pregnant in her last year of grad school and how after she gave birth her school was very strict and provided very little accommodations to support her new family. She also talks about what it was like to get pregnant while running a chiropractic business with her husband to then find out the world is shut down by COVID 19 leading them to be concerned about how they will financially afford another child due to the unknown of what the pandemic will bring.  

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/56

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Apex Chiropractic WA: https://www.apexchiropracticwa.com/  
• Pacific Wellness & Lactation: https://www.pwlactation.com/ 
• Expecting & Empowered Workout App: https://www.expectingandempowered.com/ 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International:https://www.postpartum.net
• Medi-Honey: Amazon Link (not an affiliate link)

Definitions:

• Torticollis 
• Tongue-Tie
• Prodromal Labor
• Occiput Posterior (OP) Presentation
• Membrane /Cervical Sweep
• Fundal Massage 
• Postpartum Rage

Transcript

Kiona: 0:08

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique, so make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive into the details of the birth stories that are going to be shared today. I want to talk to you about the amazing community that we have on Facebook. This Facebook group is private and only for the listeners of the birth as we know at podcast. So if you don't listen to this podcast, you are not allowed. And that is because we are creating a place where we can come together and have connection. And talk about things that are related to the podcast and just virtually enjoy each other's time and space. So join me and all of the other BAWKI members in the Facebook group, by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/facebook. All right. Let's dive into the episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today I am interviewing Kirsten Spitz, who is the co owner with her husband, Jared, of Apex Chiropractic. Today, Kirsten is going to be talking about her two personal birth stories of Logan, who is seven, and Lincoln, who is three. Welcome, Kirsten. Thanks for coming on today.

Kirsten: 2:28

Thank you for having me.

Kiona: 2:30

Absolutely. So let's go ahead and just dive in with starting off with the basics of telling us a little bit about you and who's in your family.

Kirsten: 2:39

So it is myself and my husband, Jared. We met in chiropractic school and then we have two sons. So Logan, we had while we were in grad school, actually, and then Lincoln, who we had about a year after we opened our practice, we practiced together at apex chiropractic in Bothell. And we're nervous system centered chiropractors and the bulk of our clientele, we're about 60 percent perinatal and pediatric. So a really big family based practice. I always joke that depending on the time of day, you don't know if it's like a chiropractic office or a daycare center cause there's kids running all over the place. but we love it. So that's kind of the most about me on the side. I do a lot of sourdough baking and then we just try and be outside whenever we can.

Kiona: 3:20

Hmm. That's really cool. That is really cool. And so you also talked about how you, and your husband do work with about 60 percent perinatal clients.

Kirsten: 3:29

Mm hmm.

Kiona: 3:30

And then what's the range in that?

Kirsten: 3:33

So we, kind of, the whole perinatal spectrum for us starts, I mean, we love, ideally we'd love to see moms when they're trying to conceive, because if we can make sure that nervous system is fully functioning when you're trying to conceive, for one, it can make it a little bit easier to conceive, but then we can kind of get ahead on some of the issues that people see as normal during pregnancy. I always like to say that we interchange normal and common a lot But it's not normal to have a bunch of pain in sciatica And it's not normal to have headaches your whole pregnancy, and it's not normal to I mean if your baby is breached Usually it's because there's something going on in your nervous system or your pelvis. If not, I always tell people like there are reasons that your baby will go breech, short cord, something going on with the uterus, all that kind of stuff. But, we also see people who are struggling with infertility and PCOS, irregular cycles, but then we really have a passion for seeing moms postpartum because as you know, people focus so much on prenatal and birth and then we're postpartum and we're like, what are we supposed to do now? And so we really like being moms through that. There's a huge hormone shift, so it's so important for us to support mom and her body as she's going through. Cause she was, I mean, the birth of a mom happens, whether it's your first baby or your fifth baby, right? So we really like to be support through there. and then we really, really encourage parents to bring their babies in early so we can make sure that they're getting checked as well.

Kiona: 4:57

Awesome. So when you say bring their babies in early, you mean like within the first couple weeks of life, right?

Kirsten: 5:02

Yes, so we encourage parents within the first couple weeks of life, Like two weeks is ideal, but I also offer in home visits the first, within the first week of delivery because a lot of moms just are not ready to leave and I want to make sure that they're feeling better. I mean you're learning to breastfeed and you're doing all these things and I will check baby there as well. But we do some pretty intensive scanning and testing just to make sure that everything is going full tilt. You know the first two weeks when babies are like sleepy and you're like, there's nothing going on. It's perfect. They sleep great, like, my baby's such a great sleeper, and I'm like, but they haven't really woken up all the way yet, because they just went through a huge transition. so we like to catch those things before something like torticollis becomes an issue, or they are struggling latching, or they aren't pooping, or doing all those things.

Kiona: 5:47

Yeah. that's really awesome. I think that that's super beneficial because like you had mentioned, postpartum kind of drops off when it comes to care and with patients or clients, depending on the kind of provider, kind of care you're receiving, whether it's in hospital or out of hospital, midwifery or birth center, depending on your provider, you can not be seen for like six weeks.

Kirsten: 6:10

That's crazy.

Kiona: 6:11

a huge amount of time. Yeah. Okay. So let's go ahead and dive in to the conception of your first kiddo. You said you were in grad school, so I have to ask, was it intentional or was he an oopsie?

Kirsten: 6:26

Logan was a happy surprise.

Kiona: 6:28

Yeah.

Kirsten: 6:29

yeah, so, Jared and I were still in, so, chiropractic school was broken up into ten trimesters. And, we were in the middle of the fourth trimester. And, we found out that we were expecting, and I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, am I gonna have to take a break from school? What's happening? And I went and talked to one of the deans there and he was like You have a higher chance of winning the lottery than you do being born And I like started crying. I was like, oh my god So I was like, okay Well, he was like you can do school or you can take a break like school is gonna be here But you can just figure out like you'll figure it out. It's gonna be okay, and I was like, okay You And we just kind of like sat with it for a little bit and I was like, well, I'm just going to continue doing school. My due date was actually, finals week, a couple of trimesters later. and I was like, I mean, most babies are like late anyways, so it'll be fine. Cause in between each trimester, we get a two week break. And so I was like, it'll be ideal. it'll be great. And I'm telling my family and they're like, yeah, but. The baby could come early, the baby could come late, like what are you gonna do? And I was like, I don't know, but we're gonna figure it out and it's gonna be great. So, we, just entered this journey of like, hey, we're in grad school. It's crazy. We're in class eight to five, but we're gonna make it work and it's gonna be awesome.

Kiona: 7:51

That sounds like a really hard time for decision making too, because a lot of people that do end up with those happy surprises really have to adjust everything that's happening in their lives. And I have talked to multiple people who are in the middle of school or just about to complete school and literally taking exams while in labor and things like that. So it happens. And I think it's awesome that you push through, you know, was it challenging throughout any point in your pregnancy with any symptoms to stay focused in school.

Kirsten: 8:24

No so, kind of one of the reasons that I got so Passionate about seeing moms is I had heard well You know people tell you like just wait like just wait till the pain starts. Just wait till the morning sickness Just wait till this just wait till that. I had an amazing pregnancy with Logan I had a little bit of nausea in the beginning I told people that I ruined my teeth enamel because I would eat lemons and it would help but it was really a really smooth pregnancy and I feel very blessed about that and it is there's a big difference between that pregnancy and my pregnancy with Lincoln, which we'll talk about. So no, there wasn't really anything there, but when I went into labor, I had practicals that day and so I was taking a practical, like having contractions, like sweating. so that was the hard part of that situation.

Kiona: 9:18

so were you in, like, early labor, or were you kind of, like, almost in active labor where you're breathing through them, trying not to make noise during your exam?

Kirsten: 9:27

Yeah, so I had taken a birth class, which I actually got certified to teach. and so I was like, I don't know what it is. it felt early. My first contraction was at like 4 o'clock in the morning. And I was like, that was probably a contraction, but I'm gonna try and go back to sleep. and like 30 minutes later, another one happened. And they had a consistency, but they weren't growing in intensity until they grew in intensity. But by that point, I was like, well, I don't know if it's gonna break off, I don't know if this is real labor, or prodromal labor. So I'm just gonna go take this practical. So, at this point it was like 9 o'clock, I think the test was. And Jared and I were in that practical together, which was really nice. But everyone's last minute studying, and I'm like, just sitting there. In between contractions, like, don't let anybody know. Cause you know if someone's like, Are you okay? And you just like, immediately start crying.

Kiona: 10:18

As soon as someone asks the question, the walls come down and the flow starts.

Kirsten: 10:23

Yeah. I'm like, yes I'm fine, but also I'm about to go take a practical. Also I might have a baby today, or I might not. So, in this practical, They went person to person to person. And so we were all in this room together. A lot of the practicals you'd like, step in separately. And I saw her like rounding to me and I hadn't had one for like 15 minutes. I was like, oh, i'll be good and she steps up to my table and you know, you can feel that start to climb and I was like sweet I remember like feeling like the sweat on my lip and i'm sure she just thought I was nervous at that point, But we got through that. and we went to the next class and I was like, I think we need to go home And so we went home But I had another practical that day, which was a culmination test. Like it was, basically a mock. We take boards, four parts. And the fourth part is they call them OSCEs. It's a practical. It's very stressful. So you go and step outside of a room. You have 60 seconds to read the prompt. And then you step inside the room. You have four minutes to do whatever they need you to do. And that's your grade.

Kiona: 11:21

Oh wow, that sounds intense.

Kirsten: 11:23

yeah. so I messaged the professor that was kind of heading that and I was like, Hey, I think I'm in early labor. I'm not really sure, but I can try and make it, but I don't know if I'm going to make it. And he was like, well, even if you have the baby today or if you have the baby on Sunday, cause this was a Friday, he was like, you need to rest. So just go home and we'll figure it out. And I was like, bless,

Kiona: 11:43

Yeah.

Kirsten: 11:43

I do not want to have to come back. so we went home and rested and ate and walked around, but they were still like, 15 to 20 minutes apart and I was like Okay so Jared made sure that I was like eating and doing all this stuff And then they started to pick up a little bit. And so my sister in law who's also a chiropractor came over and adjusted me

Kiona: 12:02

Nice.

Kirsten: 12:02

So we got adjusted and then they were picking up to the point where I was like, okay They were like 10 minutes 8 minutes like getting closer and we lived like 17 minutes from our birth center that we were going to In Dallas, it's at Grapevine Birth Center, and so I messaged my midwife and told her and she was like, Well, I can meet you, let's meet at 4 and I'll check you and see where you're at. If you want to be checked or we'll just kind of see where you're at. physically, emotionally, all that kind of stuff. And so we get in the car and we had never, ever hit traffic going to the birth center and we were in traffic for like 35 minutes. Yeah. And you know in the car, like, you can't get comfortable. I always joke that the car is the worst part of birth. that is. Why I chose a home birth for my second one. I was like, I'm not getting back in the car. so contractions were super uncomfortable And we got there and at this point like i'm tired like it's my first baby So i'm like kind of nervous and I walked in and I love my midwife and she goes. How's it going? And I was like And I just like started crying and she was like was is are you in pain? what's happening? I was like, no, she was like just new feelings. I was like, yeah, and She goes. Okay. Well, let's just talk about it and see where you're at And she was like, do you want me to check you? And at that point I was very, no. I don't want to be checked until I'm in active labor. and I had really passionate feelings about that. it doesn't tell you anything. You know, you could be at a zero and have the baby the same day. You could be at a four for multiple days. So I had her check me. Cause I was like, I have to be at least at a five. I've been doing this for 12 hours now. This is crazy. And, she was like, you're at a three. And you're about 80 percent effaced. And I was like, that can't be possible. and I went to the bathroom and she had told Jared at that point, she was like, he was like, so what do you think? is it going to be like in a couple hours? Is it going to be tonight? And she was like, and this was on his due date, but I'm in labor

Kiona: 13:48

Okay.

Kirsten: 13:49

and she was like, it could be tonight. We might need to get through tonight and into the morning. And so I came back in at this point, the contractions were like five to seven minutes apart. but then it would like skip. It'd be five to seven and then like 10 or 15. But she's like, why don't you guys go walk around? Grapevine was a nice area where like you there's it was a beautiful day outside. She's like go walk around go get something to eat and We got into his Jeep and I was like we can go get something to eat But I'm not walking anywhere because I was just tired at that point And we get a few minutes from the birth center To grab something to eat and he steps inside and as soon as he gets inside They got so close together and so intense that I was like, I'm going to have the baby right here. So, he got food and came back out and I was like, we have to go, right now. I can't eat any of this, we need to get back to the birth center. And so he pulls out and immediately I was like, you have to pull back over because I feel like the baby is, going to come right now. There's so much pressure. And so, I got out of the car and, like, dropped to my hands and knees right next to, like, a dumpster in this big pool. parking lot and Got through the next few ones and I had him message our midwife at that point He was like these contractions are really tense. Like I started to get not shaky like transition shaky, but definitely really close And he was like she says we have to come back and We got there and we beat the midwife there and I think we're I mean we had to have been there less Less than 10 minutes and I had several contractions like on my hands and knees in the parking lot So we get upstairs and I'm just I found like my safe I always tell people you find like your safe space and labor, you know, like this is where I feel comfortable This is the position that I want. So I was on all fours but with my elbows up on the birth ball In between the bathroom and the like birth room so I could like be in the bathroom if I needed to but the bed was right there So we labored there for about an hour hour and a half And Jared was trying to get me to eat in between because they would still they were still Three to five minutes apart and then a little bit of a gap three to five minutes apart and then a little bit of a gap in about an hour and 45 minutes later my midwife was like, you haven't used the bathroom since you got here So why don't you just try and see and maybe have a couple contractions there? And I sat down and went to the bathroom and then my water broke on the toilet I was like, I feel like i'm gonna throw up And she's like, it sounds like you're getting pretty transition y, so let's see if we can get you to the tub. Cause she knew that I wanted to have the baby in the water. And at this point she's like, did you say something about having a birth photographer? And I was like, yep, I did. And she was like, did you happen to message her? And I was like, no, I didn't. So, Jared messages her. I get into the tub. and he was born like 30 minutes later. So the birth photographer got there three minutes after I delivered. I know, but she, she still got a lot of really good pictures. So we were at the birth center for less than two hours and I pushed for like seven minutes and then he came out and it was just like, now I have a baby and this is my baby and he's mine and now I don't, this is crazy. It happened so fast. So he was my little due date baby.

Kiona: 17:00

yeah, that's awesome. He was definitely ready to come on his due date, which is super cool. Yeah. I can't even imagine the thoughts that were going through Jared's head when you're like pull over right now and you're like next to the dumpster. He's probably panicking,

Kirsten: 17:15

Yeah.

Kiona: 17:16

trying to figure out, Oh my God, am I going to have to catch this baby?

Kirsten: 17:19

Yeah. I think in the back of his head. He was like, There's no way like are we actually going to do this here? Like we're so like we can we were so close to the birth center. How are we not there yet? And then he actually ended up I ended up getting in like the very back and like being on my hands and knees on the way there because that was the only comfortable position for me. But he joked later. He was like, I was just really worried that your water was going to break all over the car. I was like, yes. I'm sure that was a concern

Kiona: 17:46

That's a valid concern.

Kirsten: 17:48

Yeah, yeah

Kiona: 17:49

amniotic fluid is not the kind of fluid that you want to soak into your seats. So

Kirsten: 17:55

No, no But yeah, it was it was really fast, but it was so cool to me because I had been not to a birth But I had been like right after when my sister had her daughter But it was in a hospital. So she had an intervention free Her first delivery but at a hospital And I remember being there and being like, why does everybody keep coming in? You know, cause at the hospital, they have their checks that they have to do. And I remember thinking like this bed is so uncomfortable, you know, like I would not want to be there. But before my sister had that birth, I thought natural birth was crazy. Like when I learned that people didn't get an epidural, I was like, why would you do that? And my sister was like, yeah, like some people squat and labor and I remember laughing so hard. Like that is hilarious. That is not something that people do anymore. You don't have to do that. Why would you subject yourself to that? So then seeing that and then Once Jared and I found out we were expecting I was like, well, I'm definitely not I don't like hospitals I don't do well with needles. I don't do well with people in my space really like I'm a very very I have my bubble and I need it to be respected kind of a thing. Uh, so for me it was a hands off birth was really important and I was in chiropractic school at the time and we were going through our OBGYN class and so learning all that stuff plus taking the birth class that I did, my birth class that I did was a 10 week course. So it was really, really informational and amazing, but it was, I just felt. so empowered being in that setting with somebody who knew exactly what I wanted and knew that she was gonna do her best to give it to me as long as there wasn't any sort of emergency. So that was a really cool experience to be able to kind of see. And then I ended up doula-ing for a friend who delivered with the same midwife, so it was kind of fun to see it from a different perspective as well.

Kiona: 19:48

that sounds super cool. So tell me a little bit more about this birth course. So it sounds like it was a requirement for your, like licensing or certification for your chiropractic. Or was it on the side that you chose to take because you were expecting?

Kirsten: 20:05

I chose to take because I was expecting so. I, the first, we were in Texas. I don't remember if I said that. So we were in Texas when for grad school. And then when we delivered him and it's really interesting seeing that birth perspective there in Dallas and then up here, because a lot of people think, Oh, in Washington, like you have all these options and all these resources. And I think that we do, but the natural birth world in Dallas, it is, there are, in my opinion, so many more options there than there are here. and the laws are completely different. So if my baby was breached, I knew that I was still going to be able to deliver at the birth center. Like they're able to do VBACs. They do twins at birth centers, you know? So, it was, yeah, it was just different The other thing is that this birth center specifically, but a lot of the birth centers around there require that you take a birth class

Kiona: 21:02

Hmm.

Kirsten: 21:03

or have a doula. A lot of them highly encourage both and they have a requirement that you get body work a lot of the time. And so the birth center that I went to, they had a chiropractor there that was, she had like her initial fees and then she was like a, she was paid what you can, which I think is really good for people. I mean, cause if it's a requirement, you know, not everybody can feasibly afford getting chiropractic adjustments their whole pregnancy. so it's really nice because they work so much with other providers. In the Puget Sound we have those different people we can refer to right which is really cool and their network There is really big as well. So yeah, it was a requirement It was hosted there which was really nice so that I could get even more comfortable So like there was a class that was going over like a week labor positions. And so it was like, they took us up to the birth rooms and they're like, these are the things you can do. These are the different tools that you have. Here's the tub, here's the shower, here's the birth ball, here's the peanut, like all this different stuff.

Kiona: 21:56

Mm.

Kirsten: 21:57

and then I got that certification to take that class, in 2020.

Kiona: 22:03

Okay, so you can teach that class now.

Kirsten: 22:06

Yeah.

Kiona: 22:07

That's really cool. Just to be super clear, you took the class because it was a requirement from the birth center that your midwife practiced at And it's like outside of your chiropractic training completely.

Kirsten: 22:19

Yeah. So in chiropractic school you get one OB class. So if you choose to go to a chiropractor during pregnancy, which I highly encourage everybody who is able to, to do, it's really important that they actually specialize in pregnancy. It's not like a chiropractor who sometimes sees pregnant women, you know? I always explain it, like, you wouldn't go to a spine surgeon for a hand surgery. That's not something you would do. You want somebody who sees pregnant moms all the time. It has extra training in pregnant moms. So there's different classes and certifications and there's a whole Association revolving around that and then pediatrics as well. So dr. Jared and I are required to take 25 hours of continuing education and we take the bulk of that and pediatrics and family care Prenatal.

Kiona: 23:04

Yeah, I mean that sounds like a really good decision since that's your niche, you know, that's like what you guys do. I think that's super cool. I also love how you just called your husband Dr. Jared.

Kirsten: 23:13

Oh, yeah cause that's how I refer to them like all week long when we're working together and I'll be at home and someone was over, I'm like, oh, Dr. Jared and they're like, what? I'm like, never

Kiona: 23:24

funny. I love it though because you have to have that line of like professionalism when you work together in a business and then at home, you know. And since you're together all the time, sometimes your brain just doesn't catch up to where you're at. So

Kirsten: 23:37

Yes.

Kiona: 23:38

I think that's cool either way. but yeah, so with this training that you took, are you actively teaching this course now or is it something that you do on the side or offer individually or are not offering at the time?

Kirsten: 23:52

so I try and teach quarterly. I Have not maintained my certification with that company. just because I took time off from teaching. So before I got that certification, I created like my own birth course. I always feel weird when people say that, you know, you're like, What do you mean you created your own birth course? But with the knowledge I had from the classes I had taken plus I mean just all of the reading that I've done and being a chiropractor and doing all that so I had written My own course and then I got that certification and so now I do a blend of like it's all the same information, right? It's just how it's presented like I always tell people you don't have to take a birth class all the information is out there It's just knowing what questions to ask So I do teach like a hybrid of both of them You But I try and do it once a quarter. I just, my, I'm really trying to draw boundaries on my time, which I have a hard time doing because I love serving our community, but I also have two growing kids who I want to be hugely a part of. And, so long story short to say, yes, I do teach. I don't have my next dates planned. It's probably going to be in May sometime that I start. And then it's, it's a four week series instead of 10.

Kiona: 25:05

Hmm. That sounds really cool. And I like the fact that you are adamant about your boundaries because as a person who is a birth worker and loves to serve as well and provide high quality care to the people that I'm connected with, you Sometimes that comes at your own self detriment, you know, and you're like giving, giving, and giving, and then you're like exhausted but you just want to keep giving because you know that you love to do that. And then the being present with the family as they're growing is huge as well. I just have to continue to remind myself that I don't have to do it all right now because it will continue to be there and happen, but it's easier said than done, I will say.

Kirsten: 25:47

Yeah. I think it's hard being a mom, too, in the birth world, right? Because you're like, well, I know what it's like to be there. And so I want to be there and be that person for somebody and support them. And I run into that chiropractically, in our office, so I offer those postpartum visits, but I also do in labor adjustments. And so I can't do it in the hospital. I don't have privileges there. And that's just not a bridge that I'm going to gap right now. but I always tell mom's I stay there for like an hour so I can check you a couple of times and, I can help you with different positionings or doing that kind of stuff but then the hour mark comes and I'm like, well, I could say a little bit longer because this is helping, you know, or I was getting ready to leave the office the other day. We closed early on Tuesday. And I had an appointment I had to go to and I had a mom call and she was like, I'm really uncomfortable. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. And our office closes at one and she could make it there at like five. So I text my husband and I was like, do you think I should? And he was like, I know you want to, but like, that is dinner time. And that's a boundary. And we're working on boundaries. And so if she's not if she can make it to tomorrow, then like we can see her tomorrow morning. And so it was so hard for me to message her and say, I can't. But it was, so I'm learning,

Kiona: 26:56

Yeah. I mean, good on your husband with having an accountability partner, you know, to hold you accountable for your boundaries. I think that's awesome. super super awesome. so let's go ahead and talk about your postpartum with Logan. Did you experience any hardships with breastfeeding? What were your feeding choices? what did that journey look like for you?

Kirsten: 27:15

So the first two to four weeks with Logan was really tough. he had a tight frenulum, I had a lactation consultant come and she was like, I don't think that this needs to be clipped, or lasered. I think that you just need to do some body work, which I knew, My sister in law was going to be a world and my brother's a chiropractor also. And so I'm like, they can be adjusting him. I didn't, hadn't been taught at that point, pediatrics. and she was like that and then some stretches. So she gave me some stretches, but we had to go back to school three days after we had him. which I still get huffy about because we had, a VP who is a female. And so I was like, well, we only have one. Trimester of classes left and like I said, I had finals that following week And I was like, can I just bring him and test in the testing center? Because people who have essentially like an IEP, but for college Who need extra time they get to go to a testing center and to a separate room and I said, well He'll be like brand new. Can I just bring him like they just sleep the first week And she was like no no if, ands, or buts. Just no And I was like, okay, well, let's talk about like the next year, the next semester. there are other chiropractic schools across the country that let people bring their kids to school. Because they really encourage breastfeeding and parental bonding and like all that kind of stuff. so like I said, like he's just gonna, he's gonna be so new. He's gonna be sleeping a lot of the time. Is it possible for me to bring him to class and then I can step out if he's fussy? They had converted like a closet into a breastfeeding room. And I was like, or could I like zoom in there? That way I'm physically on campus. But like somebody is, and she was like, no, absolutely not. You know, we're just, we're not going to be able to do that. And I was like, I just don't understand when these are things that I can do without disrupting people. Why it's not an option. And she looked at me dead in the face and she said sometimes you just can't have everything you want So you're gonna have to decide what's important to you

Kiona: 29:14

Wow.

Kirsten: 29:15

Yeah, and I was so Upset so I lived on the third floor of an apartment building and I lived eight minutes from campus So I would take a final and then go home nurse and then go do all that. My first one was three days after I had him and then we had a gap. And so then we went back and took them. So those were done. And luckily, I mean, I had had. straight A's going in because I was like, if I have this baby, I know that I'm not going to want to be studying. Like I'm just going to be spending time with him. So I was able to not study a ton so that I could hang out with him while I was home. and still end really well in good standings. but with nursing that obviously was even harder cause I was so stressed, you know, baby feeds off of how you're feeling. He already was struggling. So we had to do, a nipple shield with a syringe. So I would like, Pump or do it in the haakaa. So it was a minimum of a two person job. So Jared would be helping me and he did with a syringe for the first week and then We got off of the shield like three weeks in and Jared and I both cried the first time he like actually latched but I think that if I hadn't had his support and the support of our midwife My sister flew down. My sister was 35 weeks pregnant and flew down to like help while I was taking finals.

Kiona: 30:30

Hmm.

Kirsten: 30:31

Like I hadn't had that support. I don't know. I mean I'm pretty stubborn so I might have still been successful. But definitely in that phase. So we ended up breastfeeding for almost three years.

Kiona: 30:40

Nice.

Kirsten: 30:41

Yeah.

Kiona: 30:43

Man, that's so tough. And it is unfortunate that the VP at the time was not willing to make any adjustments. that's just so inconsiderate. And you're giving all the options that seem feasible. Like, they seem totally doable. And trying your best to work your way around their limitations that they're putting in.

Kirsten: 31:05

Yeah.

Kiona: 31:06

And just getting rejected.

Kirsten: 31:07

Yeah.

Kiona: 31:08

Ugh, that has to just Ugh, that sucks really bad.

Kirsten: 31:13

Yeah.

Kiona: 31:15

But, so, I guess I'm curious, did you and Jared have to balance who was taking a final when, or was someone else at home with Logan at the time when both of you were in finals?

Kirsten: 31:26

So the classes, the way chiropractic school works, at least at the school I went to, you're, designated by trimesters, so, like, we were in 6th tri at this point, or 5th tri. and, so, you take all the same classes, and then you're assigned to different labs and, practicums. And so, for finals, we were together. And, I'm a really fast test taker, because I just want to be done. you know, if I overthink it, I'm going to change my answer a million times. So. It would be hard for me because Jerry's a lot more methodical. He's ex military so he's very like Goes through his six million times. but he got really good grades but so that was hard for me because we would drive together But so our finals we would take together our labs we had some of the same some of them not but once finals came like when we had The actual written portions his mom who lived in oklahoma came down and she waited outside of class with Logan so I could nurse in between.

Kiona: 32:26

Mm. That's nice. I mean, it's nice to even let her do that, because the whole limitation of all the things anyway.

Kirsten: 32:34

Yeah. Well, I talked to the Dean, the one who I told you said the lottery story. And I was like, I don't understand why she's saying no to this because it doesn't make sense. And he looked at me, he was like, I tried and I pushed for you, but I don't have any leeway there. But she no longer worked for the school, but her family is a big name in chiropractic, like they started one of the big chiropractic schools, but, yeah, so, it was a very humbling experience because I told, I mean, I tell my kids like sometimes we can't have, you know, sometimes we can't have the things we want, no, I can't even say that because it's like such a Thing in my head of yeah, I'm like, no I'm aware i'm adult. I know I can't have everything I want, but this isn't unreasonable what i'm asking of you But and then I had pretty significant baby blues

Kiona: 33:19

Yeah, that was going to be my next question, is how did all of these limitations impact, your emotions postpartum? Do you think that you would tack on the label of, postpartum anxiety or depression at all?

Kirsten: 33:33

I don't know looking back because I think Everything was is like a blur because it happened so fast. Definitely baby blues probably some depression. and I don't think I had anxiety but I did not want to leave him at all. And I got to the point where, I like wouldn't even let people hold him. You know, we had had a couple people come see him. And even then I've always told people, this is my baby. if I want you to hold the baby, yes. But like, I'm not passing him around. That's not happening. And so we had had a couple people. We had. Friends that were really great in chiropractic school and so they had started the meal train and people would drop stuff off but then I got to the point where I was like, I need them to just drop it off and leave and Like my brother and sister in law would come over because they live in Dallas also and like I didn't want anyone to hold him and then Jared's sister came down and I Could not even let her hold him because I was so just so couldn't separate myself from him because I had to be gone for those things. and so that was hard because obviously if your sister or sister in law comes down to meet your baby, like they want to be able to hold the baby. And so that was a hard line. and then just being anxious. I guess I was anxious. because I became kind of a hermit. I was like, I'm not going out and doing anything because I just want to be with him. and not him with other people, but like just with him.

Kiona: 35:06

Yeah. It's interesting looking back, isn't it? Because, like, in the moment. You're like, this is exactly what I need. I need my baby against me. Everybody can see him, but they don't need to hold him, touch him, do all the things. Like he's my baby, let him be mine. And then like you look back and you're like, I guess that was, that was a really hard moment for me to like have that boundary. But also, good for you for having that boundary, if that's something that you feel like you really wanted, you know? I really do find that a lot of family members just assume that, oh, I'm going to see the baby so I'm going to get to hold them, I'm going to get to kiss them, I'm going to get to do all these things, when really, that's not something that's just automatic. and it's not even necessarily something that needs to be earned, but it's something that is worth discussingand having conversations about.

Kirsten: 36:00

Yeah. That's something that I talk a lot about in my birth class. So the last class talks about like life after the baby comes, these are the decisions you have to make immediately postpartum. These are ones that you're gonna have to decide soon after, and these are conversations you should have as a couple. like who's going to be allowed over? Who's going to be holding the baby? if you are going to have people come over, you know, people come over and they're like, how can I help? And you're like, no, everything's good. Everything's fine. I'm like, put a list, like of your favorite snacks and meals on your fridge and put a list of things that you need done, get the trash taken out. And the dog needs to be walked and the laundry needs to be switched over so that you're not having to be like, well, I don't need anything, but also like I'm stressing cause I want to hold the baby or I like need a nurse, but the laundry isn't done. I don't have any more clean onesies, like all that kind of stuff. and then when people are like, Hey, can I come help with anything? You're like, yeah, because holding the baby, I mean, some people do, they're like, yeah, take the baby. I need a break and that's totally okay. But for most people, helping is not taking the baby. Helping is like Doing other things.

Kiona: 36:59

Mm hmm. Doing the other side of the things. Because if you think about it, our primal nature is going to want to be to care for our child. Right? And that includes holding our baby. And there's a lot, a lot, a lot of, stress that from a parent that has just birthed a child and just givin em up. Cause even when they're in the other person's hands, you're kind of like just staring and watching. And you're like, no no dont kiss them please, no no don't touch their face, you Know?

Kirsten: 37:29

Yeah I had a pretty big rule about that. So Jared's from the South, and so I was like, you have to have a conversation with your family. I love them all so much, and his parents and his sister have always been super respectful of that boundary, like not kissing the baby. but my mom has like always been. a kisser. And I'm like, you can't kiss the baby. She's like, even on the head. I'm like, no. And then one of Jared's aunts is so sweet, but she's definitely a kisser. And I was like, you have to make sure that you tell her she can't kiss the baby.

Kiona: 37:59

it avoids that, awkward, quick hand slide between the mouth and baby's face or something. Yeah, boundaries are important, they are super, super important.

Kirsten: 38:09

Yeah. Have you read the first 40 days?

Kiona: 38:11

Have I read it.

Kirsten: 38:12

Yeah.

Kiona: 38:13

No. I've heard of it, but I haven't read it.

Kirsten: 38:16

So it talks a lot about like different cultures and how I mean in America, it's not a surprise that we're so far removed from like the way things should be when it comes to maternity care and The way that we support each other postpartum, but like there are cultures that literally the mom like isn't seen for the first like four to six or even longer weeks until she's ready and the like Immune system of the baby is stronger and mom has recovered and then it's literally like a coming of party

Kiona: 38:43

Mm.

Kirsten: 38:44

And, but everyone else is taking care of other things. They're making sure her house is clean and they're making sure she's fed and she's bathed and she's done all of these things. But nobody walks in and is like, let me take the baby.

Kiona: 38:56

Right. Yeah, I think that's awesome, and I think that's a book that I will read. I've, I've seen it even passed around the community or recommended. so I think that that's a book good to read, and I'll also recommend it as a resource for the audience. Especially at the end, I'll put a link to it in the show notes and description. But, with that said, let's go ahead and dive into your conception with Lincoln. Was Lincoln planned? You said it was about a year after you started your practice. How were the conversations between you and Jared around that time?

Kirsten: 39:26

So after we had Logan, I was like, I could totally do the birth thing again. Not really sure I want to have another baby. I think birth is so empowering. I think it has the potential to be really empowering, especially if you have the right people. I remember walking away from that birth and being like, I can do anything. that was amazing. And like that birth high, you know, the oxytocin. but the lack of sleep. And also I just loved him so much that I was like, there's no way I'm going to love another baby this much. And Jared has always been like, yeah, I want another baby. so we opened our practice January of 2019. And in like November I became open to the idea and at this point I had just weaned Logan like two months ago. So of course I'm like I have my body back to myself. Let's have another one

Kiona: 40:13

Mm hmm.

Kirsten: 40:14

So in December I was like, yeah We can totally try like our office was growing at a rate that I was like we'll financially be okay If I step away for a little bit and so December, we were like, okay, well, let's not not try. January, we tried, didn't, conceive. February, we tried, and then we found out we were pregnant March 1st or 2nd. and then COVID happened. So, it was a scary, stressful thing because I was like, if we have to close our practice, what are we going to do? And we just. We just decided we were going to have this baby because we can and we're financially okay and our office is growing and we're doing all the things and, I was working really closely with Cascade Birth Center at the time, which has now closed, but the original owners of that, practice I was close with, and actually, our office opened in January and then the October through December before that, I was seeing pregnant patients out of there birth center just to kind of get my name out and to serve that community while I could While we built out our practice together so That was yeah, it was really stressful And then a week and a half after we found out I was in a car accident that totaled my car

Kiona: 41:32

Oh, no.

Kirsten: 41:33

Yeah, and it was a hit and run

Kiona: 41:35

Wow.

Kirsten: 41:36

Yeah, so that Was I mean my pregnancy just in general was so different and I 1000 percent attribute it to the mental and emotional stress that I was and environmental right then my mental stress at that time was crazy but we talked a lot with moms in the office is there's three different things that are going to affect you in general, but your pregnancy for sure. and it's physical stress, emotional stress, and environmental stress. And so the body's inability, like we can't avoid stress, but how is your body adapting to that? And that's really what we look at in our office being nervous system centered. and there's actually a neurological research, I think it's out of, Harvard, but it talks about critical windows and fetal development. And when mom is under certain stresses during these critical windows, like eight to 12 weeks, 16 to 20 weeks, like where all these different things are developing at such a rapid rate and baby, it can hardwire baby's nervous system. and it really can affect things like sleep and latch and all this different stuff. So, lots and lots of stress with his pregnancy, office wise, and mandate wise, and, just all of the things. And, obviously, it ended up being okay, but we had planned a home birth anyway, so I was like, there's, I mean, anyways, there's zero chance you're catching me at a hospital unless I have to be, but definitely not happening during that time. And one of my friends at that point was actually, a midwife and she was working at Cascade so she was my like head midwife which was great and I was able to talk to her about all that kind of stuff. But I started having prodromal labor at 34 weeks.

Kiona: 43:16

Mm.

Kirsten: 43:17

And at 30 weeks, I had an injury, I separated my pubic bone.

Kiona: 43:22

Oh that sounds so painful.

Kirsten: 43:24

Yeah. So, the last 10 weeks of my pregnancy was just, I mean, complete 180 from my first. And so, although I wish I never would have gone through that, I now have so much more understanding for my patients who are going through a lot. And I think that it's made me grow as a practitioner, which is really great. But the prodromal labor was a lot and I had planned to work up until a week or maybe two before my due date Because I wanted just a little bit of time But at 35 weeks My midwife Amanda, she was like, I think that you should consider Not working if that's possible So I cut back to just one day a week and then I actually cut back and stopped working a lot sooner Which was great because then I was able to spend time with Logan before I had Lincoln. but that whole preg, I mean, it was hard. And like I had mentioned with Logan, I was like very against being checked, but I'd had prodromal labor for so long that I was like, check me, I have to be somewhere. so starting at 36 weeks, I was letting them check me every week. and I was at a five for almost two weeks

Kiona: 44:36

Isn't it crazy, like, what your body does and, like, how your body can just hold at of five?

Kirsten: 44:41

yeah. Yeah, when she said, when she showed me I was a 5 at 38 weeks, I was like, sweet, I'm gonna have this baby early, it's gonna be amazing, I also let her strip my membranes, cuz you know everyone's like, oh, I'm gonna go get my membranes stripped, they're gonna check me, it's gonna be great, it's gonna make, no, nothing, nothing, and then I actually went into labor with him on his due date, just like with Logan. but I always like to joke that he was 28 minutes late, cuz he was born at 1228 a. m. So he was. which makes sense for him. He's a lot more, just he, the beat of his own drum. But, the research that I mentioned, it just makes so much more sense, because I was under so much stress, and his sleep has been so vastly different than Logan's, and still. and, it's better when he's being adjusted regularly, which, there are times where, we're busy, and we forget. hey, we haven't adjusted him in three weeks, why is he being Wild. Oh, it's because he's so excited and his brain is like dee dee dee dee dee dee dee. but yeah, so I had him at home and we had a really strict like, hey, nobody's coming over for two weeks thing. Which was great because it was COVID, so you could just be like, sorry.

Kiona: 45:50

right, gave you an excuse, which is nice, you know, pros and cons to the mandates with COVID or expected restrictions, because a lot of people turn to home birth during COVID. Which, again, pros and cons, because there were some people that should not have been birthing at home, but they were birthing out of fear from getting COVID in a hospital. lots of last minute transfers, like late in pregnancy to out of hospital birth for the fear of getting COVID in hospital. which led to lots of traumatic experiences for birthers. But, Yeah, I think that having that strict boundary of like not seeing anybody for two weeks and probably really smacking down on that boundary of do not kiss my baby, you likely won't hold my baby very much if at all, wearing masks, hand sanitizer, like all the stuff so tell me a little bit more about your postpartum with Lincoln then. Did you also choose to breastfeed? Did he have any struggles with latch or anything like that? and did you have a meal train that time?

Kirsten: 46:52

So, postpartum with Lincoln was completely different because I was able to be home. he did have a significant, significant tongue tie. Like to the point where I was crying when he was latching. At this point we worked really closely. We still work closely with Pacific Lactation Wellness up in Everett. and I called the morning after he was born and I was like, I have to get in. Like I will cancel the appointment if it ends up being, it gets better, but I don't think it's going to get better. and they had an opening like two days later. And so I went in and they were super supportive. But they're a little bit more conservative on their revisions which is fine But they're like, I don't know that he actually needs this revised I think that with you doing some body work on him and doing the stretches it can really help but we got to like day five and I was like nope, and so I calledd like 15 minutes before they opened and And they had had a cancellation so we got in that day and we did a revision and it was like a night and day difference But at that point I already, it was like we were five days in and I already had nipple damage So I used MediHoney, which is like God's ointment. I'm like so thankful for it But we also hired a postpartum doula And at this point we were living, we live really close to my sister who is, a postpartum doula now. She wasn't at the time, but she's very, very supportive. and so having the postpartum doula was a complete game changer. Being able to stay home was a complete game changer. just really being in my element you know, when you're in school, it's like you're an adult, but I didn't feel like a real adult, you know? I'm like,

Kiona: 48:34

Yeah. You still have classes and deadlines and all that.

Kirsten: 48:37

yeah, yeah. And so I knew because one of my things on us deciding to have another baby is I was like, I'm not going back to work. For a minimum of four months, probably closer to six. I was like, I'm not, it just If we're not in a place where I can step away from the practice for that long, we're not, we're not having another baby because I'm not doing postpartum like I did last time.

Kiona: 48:57

Mm hmm. I can understand even more now the fear of you getting pregnant right at the beginning of COVID because you're like, am I even going to be able to take that time off? will that be something that I can do? And even if it was a straight boundary saying I'm going to do this regardless, like, how is that going to impact your business? So. Yeah, so many things. So would you say that you experienced any postpartum blues anxiety or depression with Lincoln, knowing that you had a different set of support?

Kirsten: 49:26

Yeah. it was interesting because it didn't kick in till later. but I had experienced more, postpartum anxiety and postpartum, Rage with Lincoln. so little things would set me off very easily. and a lot of times, my temper was shorter with Logan, which wasn't fair because he was four or three and a half at the time. but, there, I mean, he didn't sleep well for We co slept and he slept great for the first six months. and then after that his sleep got worse when I went back to work. And so I don't know if that was like me projecting onto him. And so that happened, but his sleep took a turn and it was insane to the point where like when he was a year, 15, 18 months, like some nights he was still waking up 10 times a night. And, I am pretty passionate. On not sleep training like no not crying it out and all that kind of stuff. We have families in the office that do that and I think it's great. But for our family, that just isn't something that works and so that was really hard and I remember we were on vacation We had gotten a cabin in Leavenworth. And I remember he wasn't sleeping and he wouldn't go to sleep and being so Mad at him even though he's a baby, you know And just like laying there crying and Jared had fallen asleep with Logan and just being so mad at Jared that he had fallen asleep Even though it's not his fault, you know It's so mad that Logan was sleeping And everyone was sleeping except for me and Lincoln and we were just like in this room by ourselves And he was fine. Like he just was awake and wouldn't go to sleep He only cried when I was trying to get him to sleep. But other than that, he was like i'm ready to party Um, and just being like so mad and that was the first point I remember when after I had Logan someone was like sometimes you just want your own life back and I was like so in love with him that I was like I don't get it but at that point I got it like I thought of her and I was like I just want my own life back like I want the calmness and like I love my kids so much obviously and like our life now but there are certain points where you're like, man, it would be nice to just be able to, take a nap in the middle of the day, or plan a vacation without buying four tickets instead of two, or just going on a vacation together without coordinating child care, you know? But then I also think about, like, how amazing it is that I grew up with five siblings, so, we didn't do a ton of big vacations, like how really a vacation with a kid is a trip.

Kiona: 51:57

Yeah, It's not, a vacation. You're going on a trip.

Kirsten: 52:00

Yeah, but how cool it is that, we're able to do that. And so I try really hard to, like, reframe my expectations. and, I mean, a lot of childhood trauma. Like, like, that's not, what I want to project onto them. And I want them to be able to, like, enjoy the times that we're having together. But those are definitely, yeah. So sleep was rough and the rage was rough.

Kiona: 52:25

Yeah, and I actually appreciate you speaking about the rage because it's not talked about as much as postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. because It is real. It is a real thing and I experienced postpartum rage with my first. It was very similar and it was actually quite scary for me because my husband was asleep. My baby would not fall asleep. I was completely exhausted and depleted and I was just so mad. I was so mad that I was crying and I was like, aahhhh I just want to go to sleep! I, I did not think of like hurting my daughter at all, you know, but I put her in her little co sleeper bassinet cause we bed share. But like at that time I was like, I just, I just need you off my body. So I need you to be in your bassinet. And I just remember like screaming into my pillow and like punching my pillow because I was so angry. And. She was not even, just like you said, she wasn't necessarily crying. It was more of her just being up. And I was like, whoa. And then of course when I started, like, yelling, she started crying because it was more fear. But I was just like, God, and then I felt guilty because I was like, you're just a little baby. you rely on me to survive and everything. So it's like a cycle of guilt and rage. It was rough. Yeah. It was, it was really rough. So, after the revision, the tongue tie revision with Lincoln, you said your breastfeeding was like night and day. Did you have any other issues after that?

Kirsten: 53:53

With both of them I had a pretty big oversupply So that was like the bulk of our issue is that there was milk everywhere

Kiona: 54:00

hmm.

Kirsten: 54:00

One of the lactation consultants that I was talking with, one of my big problems I think is that, with the Haakaa I was like connecting it, you know, cause it's still a pump. So you're still telling your body to make more and she was like, try not connecting it. So I just like let it set there. But like at one point, I just sent her a video because, my letdown was so fast that it wasn't even connected and the Haakaa filled in less than two minutes.

Kiona: 54:24

Wow, that is an oversupply because Haakaa's are about what, between four and six ounces?

Kirsten: 54:31

think the one that I had was four.

Kiona: 54:33

Yeah. four ounces. That is a lot. And it's a letdown. Yeah. Wow. Did you ever donate any of your milk or did you just have a really large freezer stash?

Kirsten: 54:44

No, I donated all of it. With Logan too, I donated like hundreds and hundreds of ounces. but with him like we saved some but I nursed on demand and then when I went back to work I brought him to work with me so it was just sitting there so I donated it.

Kiona: 55:01

That's awesome. well there is a pro for that issue, you know, but also a con of like probably constantly changing out breast pads and constantly having an extra shirt on hand. So yeah. Man, so diving in to Lincoln's birth, like what did that look like? What did the depths of that look like?

Kirsten: 55:30

really fast and really intense.

Kiona: 55:33

Hmm.

Kirsten: 55:34

My first contraction was at 7 30 p. m. And he was born at 12 28

Kiona: 55:40

That's quick.

Kirsten: 55:41

Yeah, and so my midwives Well actually backing up a couple days something similar happened He was born on a Wednesday morning and that Sunday things were I was having steady contractions Like I said, I had a padromal labor for like weeks, but this was like different and longer and so My midwife had come over and checked me and I had her strip my membrane Sunday morning. And then later on, things started and picked up, and so they got to the point where I was like, I'm gonna message my midwives and my birth photographer and have them come. and they came and as soon as they got there, like, everything stopped. Like, everything.

Kiona: 56:16

Hmm.

Kirsten: 56:17

minutes apart than 30 minutes apart, and then just was like done And the birth photographer at that point was like the midwives had left But she was still there because she was like she lived like 45 minutes away And she's like I'm just gonna stay a little bit longer she's like I feel like having people in your space is Like stopping whatever is happening. And at this point we had sent Logan away because He had said that he didn't want to be there for it He's like I want to go to my cousin's house because they live close And so we had sent him away and I was like, okay Well, we'll just like get sleep But it was so defeating like we had filled up the birth pool and we had done this and we had done that So then my body just rested like there was nothing like not prodromal labor not a single contraction All day Monday and then Tuesday It was like Seven, I think. And so, me and Jared had sex, and literally, as soon as we were done, they started. And to the point where I was shaking, as soon as they started. So I messaged my midwives, and I was like, hey, contraction just started. I'm like, shaky, feels kind of transitioning. They ended up spreading out a little bit, and they were never consistent. they'd be 10 minutes apart, 12 minutes apart, 2 minutes apart, 3 minutes apart. which I think is so important for people to know and hear. And I teach in my birth classes all the time. I'm like, the quote is, you know, depending on the provider, three to five minutes apart, lasting a minute for an hour. And then you're in active labor once you've hit a certain point and they want you to go to them. and the other interesting thing is that I was progressing the fastest when I was in a semi reclined position. And so something just with the way he was positioned, I'm pretty sure that he was posterior for a little bit, in labor, but. they were there for a couple hours, and I think I was in the water for about an hour before he was born. But really similar situation to Logan, like water broke,and then born like right after with Logan I pushed for seven minutes, with Lincoln I pushed for eight, and he was a pound and a half bigger. And they were like, he looks bigger than your brother. I was like, he felt bigger. but they wanted me to deliver the placenta when I was still in the water and it just like, wasn't ready. which I have a lot of feelings about the uterus massage or the fundal massage.

Kiona: 58:31

Yeah, they should not call it a massage. That's one of the biggest things I think.

Kirsten: 58:34

Yeah. Yeah. but. So I got out and delivered the placenta once I was like on the bed after he latched. He latched and it like helped it all break away a lot faster. it was so nice like being able to have him and just go to my bed. And then Jared had the birth pool drain put away by the time they left.

Kiona: 58:53

very meticulate.

Kirsten: 58:55

yeah, military's the military thing. then, yeah, so I think everybody left by like 2 or 2. 30. and then we got Logan the next morning and he was able to meet him. But so yeah, his labor was really fast, really intense. I tore a little bit and they were like, it's about a grade one and a half two, we can stitch it, but it's really close to the clitoral head. And so even if we numb you, you're probably going to feel it, but it's cosmetic or no, I was like, well, is it going to affect something? And they're like, no, it's like cosmetic. And I kind of was like, They were like, but it will heal it on its own. I was like, leave it. No stitches for me. No, thank you.

Kiona: 59:31

Yeah, and so have you. seen or felt any like difference based on that decision? Do you think it was a good decision to make to not suture?

Kirsten: 59:39

Yeah, I haven't noticed. I mean, there's been no problems. Like, I've asked Jared, like, do you notice anything? He's like, no, I have just nothing. but one thing that was different is that I did pelvic floor therapy postpartum with him, which I should have done with Logan. Cause you know how people think it's normal that you can't jump on a trampoline or run and do all these things. but so I did that with Lincoln and I did a postpartum, or I did a prenatal, have you heard of Expecting and Empowered?

Kiona: 1:00:07

Mm mm.

Kirsten: 1:00:08

It's a prenatal and postpartum fitness program written by a pelvic floor therapist

Kiona: 1:00:14

Oh, nice.

Kirsten: 1:00:15

and her sister who is a doula and used to be a nurse, I think, um, but so I did their prenatal program and then I did their postpartum program. But about a year postpartum, or no, like nine months postpartum, I started pelvic floor therapy, and that made a big difference.

Kiona: 1:00:33

Nice. That's awesome. Yeah, I think that pelvic floor therapy should be just standard. Like it should be standard, but it's not. It's looked at more as like an alternative form of medicine when really it's like working. Our bodies are working and holding and carrying so much weight. And the way that our bodies adjust postpartum after pushing a human being through your pelvis, like your muscles, they're weaker. and sometimes people's muscles are too tight. if they are super active athletes, like super active runners or horseback riders or something like that, their pelvic floor is super tight and that can impact labor and postpartum as well. So, yeah. Pelvic floor PT, I would advise. I personally have not yet done it, but I know that I can and I should.

Kirsten: 1:01:23

Yeah. It's hard to, designate the time. I mean, a lot of it, too, is, going and doing it, but then, if you don't do it at home, like the stuff that they tell you, it's like, why are you paying and going if you're not gonna listen to what they're saying?

Kiona: 1:01:35

Right? You gotta do your homework. Man, so I really appreciate you sharing your two stories with me because they are different with Logan and Lincoln. And the differences I'm noticing are people in your space, and your postpartum experience. Like how your recovery ended up being each time. So yeah, Kirsten, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. I'm super excited to get these out to the world. And I'm also excited to, refer your chiropractic office to any listeners that are local to the Bothell area. is your birth course, do you teach it online or is it in person?

Kirsten: 1:02:15

it's in person.

Kiona: 1:02:16

in person. Okay, so also that to local listeners. but before we close out, I do want to ask you three final closing questions. My first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth, and postpartum?

Kirsten: 1:02:33

two things. One, take a birth class, whether you think you need it or not. And an in depth birth class, not one that teaches you like when to ask for the epidural, but like one that like talks about informed consent and how to prepare for labor and how to prepare for postpartum. that is so important because ignorance is bliss. And I don't like using the word ignorant, but like you just don't know what you don't know. there's so many things that I was like, wow, I would have never, ever thought about that. and the other thing is, define your crowd and your tribe and like all of your stuff. Like, know who your people are so you know who to call on because you are going to need somebody. It doesn't matter how independent you've been in your life before, postpartum is not a time to be like, I can do it all myself.

Kiona: 1:03:19

Yeah, I think that's really great advice. And I agree with the childbirth education courses or birth course of some kind. even if it's just a refresher course, you know, cause a lot of people are like, Oh, I've had four babies, five babies before. And I get that. Like, if you know how you're birthing and you're confident in your body, then great. But if you're working with a different kind of provider or, you know, you unexpectedly have to move or something, even if it's just getting an idea of what. kind of care is given in your area or what, if something has changed to kind of get a refresher and an update on what that looks like. so my next question is outside of Apex Chiropractic as well as a couple of other resources you mentioned, what is one resource that we can share with our listeners on your behalf?

Kirsten: 1:04:06

Like around me or around in the Puget Sound area.

Kiona: 1:04:10

It totally up to you. It could be either.

Kirsten: 1:04:13

we pair, so backing up to like the physical therapy portion and then tongue tie stuff I do believe that like not all tongue ties are a true tie. A lot of them can be relieved with body work and other things. but two of the biggest providers that we refer to in this area, is Health Latch. So Dr. Thomas is amazing. He's so passionate. I've met with him on a personal level several times just to talk, with him. And then Pacific Wellness and Lactation. We work with them so closely. they are a really great resource for people. And then, Public floor therapy, there are two, it kind of depends. I ask people like, where are you located? And is insurance a make or break for you? There are two public floor therapists. So Karen Traylor at Lake Washington PT, we refer to a ton. And then Rachel Jelanovich, she owns Empowered Pregnancy in Lake Stevens. And they are both just wealth of knowledge and really passionate about helping moms. and so those are, Some big resources in the area.

Kiona: 1:05:19

Awesome. That's really, really cool. So I will put those resources in the show notes as well. my final and closing question for you is if you could describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Kirsten: 1:05:32

For Logan's definitely just empowering everything about it. and then I don't, with Lincoln's, that's hard. Lincoln's was empowering also, but I think like triumphant, like going through just that time. And the pro drama labor, and then the actual labor, and all that stuff, just I definitely at the end was like, we did it. Like, we made it.

Kiona: 1:06:00

Oh, I love that for you. And those words sound like very positive and uplifting and you know, It just shows what you went through, basically. And I think that's awesome. So, Kirsten, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me and also sharing your practice and all of your resources with us. I am super excited to share this with all of our listeners and just see how all the things go. So thank you for sharing.

Kirsten: 1:06:25

Yes, thank you so much for having me.

Kiona: 1:06:27

Yeah, absolutely. During this interview with Kirsten, I learned so much about her and what her two personal birth stories were like. I also learned a lot about how chiropractic care can actually impact your pregnancy, labor, and birth. I think it's super awesome that Kirsten and her husband, Jared worked together at apex chiropractic I also think it's awesome that a lot of their clients are people that are within the perinatal time, as well as working with children. I find it so important to learn about the body, especially for the kids because they're learning at such a young age. Kirsten. Thank you again for sharing your stories with us. I truly appreciate it. I am so thankful and I can relate to so many of the things that you shared. So I'm sure a lot of the listeners can relate to that as well. As for you listeners, I would absolutely love for you to become part of the BAWKI community on Facebook. All you have to do is go to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/facebook, and you will be able to join the community where we just talk about the podcast and ask all the questions. And if you want to support the production of the podcast, head over to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/support Your support really means a lot and it makes it possible for me to continue to provide content that is high quality. So I appreciate you and I thank you in advance. As for next week's episode, I had the opportunity to interview Lori Mortimore. Lori is the owner of Labor with Love Washington, and she offers birth doula services. But in this interview, she talks about her personal birth experience with her son, Sebastian. She dives into some of the details of what it's like to have a son that was diagnosed with SGA, which is small for gestational age. As well as supporting him as he was on the C-PAP machine immediately postpartum, struggling with jaundice and needing phototherapy as well as having a tongue tie. So tune in a couple of weeks to get all of the details on that. All right, friends, I've missed you. And I look forward to connecting with you again in a couple of weeks. Bye for now.