61-Karin Freeland-Miscarriage-Ectopic Pregnancy-2 Vaginal Births-The Ins and Outs of My Vagina

In this episode, Karin shares her experience with ectopic pregnancy, trusting her intuition, and dives into the details of the two birth stories of her sons. We also talk about what inspired her to write the memoir, The Ins and Outs of My Vagina.  

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/61 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Karin Freeland: karinfreeland.com
  1. 6-Secrets: karinfreeland.com/6-secrets 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International:https://www.postpartum.net

Definitions:

• Rupture of Membranes (ROM) (Water Breaking) 
• Diastasis Recti (Abdominal Separation)
• Postpartum Depression 
• Hernia 
• PUPPP Rash

Transcript

Kiona: 0:08

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Hey everyone. I am popping back in to give a quick trigger warning. After the introduction around the six minute mark, our guest, Karin goes into detail about what she saw during her miscarriage. If that is something you are wanting to avoid. I would fast forward just a couple of minutes to the eight minute mark so that you don't have to hear those details. But it is a very important part of her story. So I am keeping it in the audio. All right, let's get into the episode. Hello, everybody. And welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I am excited to be talking with Karin Freeland, who is the author of The Ins and Outs of My Vagina, which is an amazing book that I just finished. Karin is also a life coach and her business is Karin Freeland Life Coaching. Today, she will be talking about the births of her two sons. So welcome, Karin. Thanks for coming on today.

Karin: 2:19

Hi, thank you for being here. It's so good to be connected with you and get a chance to be on your show. I love it.

Kiona: 2:25

Yeah. I'm super excited to dive into these details. And of course, you did share your pregnancy and birth experiences in your book, but I would love to hear it directly from you outside of this imaginary voice that I thought you sounded like in my head. You know what I mean? So let's go ahead and just dive right in and you tell us a little bit about yourself and who's in your family.

Karin: 2:48

Okay, sure. So, hi everybody. I'm Karin Freeland. I am what I call a recovered corporate workaholic. I spent 15 years chasing paychecks and titles, only to realize one day, this is not actually fulfilling me. I'm not happy. This isn't the life that I thought I was going to create for myself. What do I do? And so, in the process of getting unstuck, I wrote my book, I started my own business, and now I get to help amazing women do the same thing. Well, not write a book about their vagina, but do whatever it is that lights them up so that they can find true purpose and fulfillment in their life. I live in Greenville, South Carolina, I'm married. We've been married for 15 years. but really dating 25. So we've now officially been together longer than we haven't. Which is just insane to me. he's a great guy. Very supportive of all my crazy dreams and all the things that I, Come up with for myself, and I have two boys who are 12 and 14 So send help because I'm dealing with the teenage tude, so that's fun But they're really good kids and obviously I adore them and I will talk about this obviously but since We're just chatting before the show got started. I have two babies here on earth and one up in heaven, and that's River. I don't know if it's a boy or a girl, so we have that lovely, ambiguous name, that we came up with. There's a whole other story behind that.

Kiona: 4:12

So let's go ahead and talk about the moment when you and your husband decided, yeah, let's go ahead and try for a baby. Let's just start there in the beginning.

Karin: 4:21

Sure. So I think because we had dated so long it was pretty quickly after the wedding. So we got married in 08. July. So by August, I was like, okay, let's go off this birth control and let's make these babies. Thinking it was going to happen really quickly and it would be so easy. And we did end up getting pregnant, that winter. But I was classic workaholic, training, and I traveled a lot for my job at that time and so I didn't see a world where I could fit in my first OB appointment. I'm traveling all over and I have this like OB appointment weeks away and all of a sudden I start feeling like this pain like cramps, you know? and I, I I start bleeding and I'm like, oh, I would be that woman who gets her period one last time. doesn't that just figure? Can't even get an extra month of not having my period. And I'm taking Advil and Aleve, like left and right. And it's not really subsiding. The pain is still really intense. And I get home from the trip and I kind of tell my husband and he's like, I don't know. Like we just weren't on. another planet and we just really weren't thinking that this was anything we should be alarmed about. And he's like, well, if you don't feel good in the morning, maybe you should call the doctor. Okay. Sure enough, wake up the next day, incredibly intense pain. And I run to the bathroom and I'm like, Oh my, something is wrong. Something is really wrong. I am massively bleeding right now. Nothing like starting out the podcast on that deep, dark note. Sorry, y'all. and you know, it was, and it's such a shame that it had to be that journey because it was so not what we were expecting. You know, we just thought that this would be such a piece of cake and we were going to get pregnant so easily and we're going to have this magical experience. And, those Dreams were just quite literally flushed on the toilet, you know, so quickly into this process. And so, I was just in the bathroom and I went to wipe and I was like, Oh my God, that, that's my baby on the toilet paper. Oh my God, what do I do? And it I mean, it's just that instant reaction. You're just crying, you're sobbing, but the kind of cry where nothing comes out. You know what I mean? Like there's no sound. You are just so horrified and can't believe what you're seeing. Like this can't be happening. This is not reality. And of course, after a while, my husband doesn't hear anything. He's like, what is going on in the bathroom? And he's knocking on the door and I'm just like, What do I do? What do I, oh, I gotta pull up my pants. I gotta get myself together. What do, I don't know. And I just set the baby on the toilet paper, at the top of the toilet. So it, wasn't in the water, but it just, like, I didn't know what to do. And so, I shut the toilet lid, and he comes in, and I'm just sobbing, and I'm like, it's a miscarriage. we lost the baby, and oh, he's crying. And then, I don't know about you, but I cannot see men cry. Like when I see men cry I have this instinct and it's almost like I feel like then I need to be the stronger person. I don't know. I think that's like such gender roles and stereotypes I'm sure are coming up but like it's just this instinct. if the man is crying then I've got to be this like superhero and I cannot have any emotion. So I just do this instinctual thing and I just flush the toilet. And I was like, oh my God, what did I just do? Like, why did I do that? And it was just like sort of a blip of a few, like, it's, it wasn't something that I then dwelled on. Cause I had to deal with him. And we're like trying to figure out what to do, and we're like, okay, we gotta call the doctor. do I need to go to the hospital? Yes I do. We go in, cause the pain wouldn't stop, the bleeding wouldn't stop. And so long story short, we find out that it was an ectopic pregnancy. So for anyone listening that doesn't know what that is, because I had never heard of this, it's where the embryo gets implanted in the fallopian tube. And so there's just no way for that baby to be viable because it can't obviously grow and it's actually really detrimental to the mom and life threatening, which I had no idea. So here I am at work walking around like everything's fine. Practically on the verge of potentially dying and I am just like, Oh, I got to do my job. I got to do my work. so that was kind of how it all started. And then, they had to administer the methotrexate just to be sure. 100 percent sure that everything was out of me. and that was such an awkward conversation at the ER, they're like, well, did you bring the fetus? And I'm like, no, what, why, I, was I supposed to? Like, I don't know. There's a manual for this stuff, you know? And in a way, I'm kind of glad I didn't because I don't know what they would have done with it. And I feel like it might've ended up in someone's cosmetics or like somewhere, I don't know where it might've ended up. So I'm kind of glad in hindsight that I didn't bring it to the hospital and it get like tested or whatever. Like it's just kind of back into nature or wherever. It needed to be. anyway, that was like a random thought I just had now. But yeah, so, you know, we leave the hospital, we kind of like put all that behind us, and we're like, oh my gosh, do we want to do this? am I meant to be a mom? There was like a lot of those questions that started to come through, like his, and I don't know what everybody's faith is, but I believe in God. So I'm like, is God trying to tell me something? Like, am I not cut out for this? Am I not supposed to be, maybe I should just be a dog mom? Maybe like, that's gonna be my thing that he wants me to go do? I don't know. so there was a lot of shame and frustration and anger with my body. this is what I'm created to do, right? that's one of the beautiful things we get to do as women, is birth the children. And, like, my body can't even do the damn thing that it's supposed to be doing. What is that? Why is that? So, it was an emotional rollercoaster, right off the get go, and nothing like starting a marriage off like that, you know? But we got through it, and that's really for better or for worse, right? we were in it together, which was helpful to have his support.

Kiona: 10:51

Yeah, absolutely. I can't even imagine what would be going through your mind at that time because I understand that feeling of when you see a man cry, like needing to be like, okay, now I have to gather my emotions. I got to be there to support him. And I think that's because societally men don't cry, you know? And when they do, it's stigmatized as something negative and you have to be this person that's like, no, no, no, it's okay. Like I support your emotions. So, Let me gather myself and be there to support you, even though I have emotions as well, but, you're crying. So, it's, it is a very challenging thing and, You also did discuss this portion in your book, and when you did say how you just instinctively flushed the toilet, it's just like, how do you even process that, right? Like, how do you just process that that one thing is done, but I also understand with your concern of if you did bring the fetus with you, what would have been done? You know, what's the protocol there? And just wanting to make sure that your baby was cared for in a way that was respected rather than tested and probed. Do you know what I mean? So I understand both sides and that is a very challenging thing to have to go through at any point, let alone at the beginning of your marriage. so. Yeah, that's a tough thing and I think that it's super awesome that you had your husband by your side that entire time as well.

Karin: 12:27

I was very fortunate and, you know, it took me a long time to talk about this. I didn't tell anyone what was going on. I only told my parents, my sister. And one person at work, which was my boss, because I couldn't travel immediately following the procedure because they're like, We, if you're still bleeding, you have got to stay close by a hospital. we cannot let you go anywhere. and of course I didn't follow directions. I was like, I just need a couple days off. I missed one trip to Pittsburgh and then I was right back out and I remember being like the following week in a hotel. In Trevos, Pennsylvania, and I was like, in the middle of nowhere, and I'm like, I'm gonna bleed out and they're gonna find me tomorrow morning, in the hotel bathroom floor and they're gonna have to call my husband and be like, you have now lost your wife and your baby. Like, I was freaking out and I was like, should I call the front desk and have them come check on me every three hours? I was that freaked out because I was still in so much pain over a week later after all of this had taken place and I'm like, this can't be right. but. I guess it was just took longer for my body to recover from all of the trauma.

Kiona: 13:38

About how long after the initial notice of your miscarriage was your pain lasting?

Karin: 13:43

Oh gosh, it's been a long time now, but I want to say at least three weeks. It was at least a good solid three weeks before I started to feel the relief and back to normal. and towards the end, it became more intermittent. So it was like, okay, I kind of feel like I know it's getting better, but it's not 100 percent yet. So yeah, it took a What I felt like it was a very long time.

Kiona: 14:07

Yeah, because you're in the thick of it, looking back three weeks can seem like not that long, but when you're in the thick of it, it's a long time because you're just waiting for the end at that point.

Karin: 14:19

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was like I wanted that closure. And that finality. And I really didn't experience that until after I wrote the book. And after I shared my story in the book. And even then it was like, I don't know that it was very therapeutic and it felt really good to just be honest and share my story and know that this is gonna help other women who are going through what I'm going through, who are suffering from an ectopic pregnancy, or who will and now will be adept to deal with it. More so than if this just came out of left field and they had no idea what this is or that this is even a possibility, but really it wasn't until I started getting on podcasts and having to speak the story. That I realized, I don't think I've healed from this. I had one podcast that was solely dedicated to talking about the miscarriage. And I just like halfway through almost wanted to be like, You know what? I don't know if I can do this anymore. I think I need a break. Maybe we should talk about something else. And I got off that podcast and that's when we decided as a couple to name our baby and to go through that whole process because I was like I feel like I just need that level of closeness and like I need to acknowledge that presence and that soul was created and that life existed and have that relationship with it so that when I get to meet it someday like we have that first name basis.

Kiona: 15:40

Yeah. Oh, I think that is such an important thing to mention I've said this before in the podcast, grieving is not linear. And when you go through something where you feel completely alone, even though it is common, miscarriage is common, ectopic pregnancy happens, I don't know the statistics on it, but like when you're going through it, you feel alone. And in that grieving process. It's not linear. So when you start talking about it, you can feel like, Oh, I'm good. It was so long ago. But every single time you talk about it, you're reliving it. So when you go through and relive that, you are bringing up all of those emotions again, and all of those feelings. And then there may be some things that you remember that you didn't remember in the past. And another time you talked about it. So I do appreciate and thank you for bringing it up because it is important to talk about and it's important for people to hear. And I really feel like having discussions about things that are hard can aid in the healing process.

Karin: 16:43

Yes. For me, it certainly has been helpful.

Kiona: 16:46

yeah, well, good, good. So between the time you felt back to normal in the time you ended up getting pregnant again. How far apart were those moments?

Karin: 16:59

It was only a couple months, we knew we wanted children so badly and so it was like, okay, whatever's going to be will be, let's just jump in, let's try this and see how it goes. And we were fortunate, we were blessed with a child not that far down the road. Although at the time it felt like it was taking forever, but now when I actually look back, I'm like, It really wasn't that long. We were pretty lucky. and then that was a whole other journey, you know, it was like, so exciting to start experiencing the baby bump, I couldn't wait to wear the maternity clothes and have my cute little bump. I was like, this is going to be so exciting. And then you get round ligament pain and you're like, this sucks. Why did I sign up for this. I'm in so much pain. I feel like all of my pregnancies involved like some severe level of pain in one way or another. but it was awesome, because it was like, okay, we're doing this. We got through the first trimester. I mean, that was the scariest part for us. There was a lot of wanting to celebrate and tell people, but not wanting to because we just didn't know. what was going to happen. so once we got through the first trimester, it was so relieving also to be able to tell everyone and celebrate with others and just feel that joy.

Kiona: 18:18

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so awesome. And you had mentioned getting through that first trimester and then kind of waiting to tell people until after that. That's a huge decision and it's a really hard thing to follow through with. And it's also what many people do to have that kind of safety net to not want to have to turn around and tell everybody, Oh, actually, you know, that's super common. people wait, even if they don't experience a pregnancy loss because they know that there's a possibility, so once you got past that first trimester, how was the rest of your pregnancy? Were there any complications? Was it hard? Tell me more.

Karin: 18:59

Yeah, I think for the motion sickness with the first one was really challenging for me. So I basically lived with those Sea band things. Like my grandma always had those because she got motion sickness and car sickness. She always had those little Sea bands in her purse. So I thought they were just things for old people and then they were like, no, you wear those to help with the, morning sickness. I was like, well, and I did not have morning sickness. I had all day sickness. I had 24/7 sickness. So if I took that band off, which I would do for my shower, obviously, because I didn't want them to get wet. By the time I got out of my shower, I was nauseous. I felt like I was going to throw up. Never did. Never once got sick, but always felt like I could at any given second. So that was a whole process to get used to because I'm generally a very healthy person. I'm very active and between that and the fatigue, I was just like, And I kept reading those books, what to expect when you're expecting, I think was the one. So every month or every week it tells you what you're developing, and I'm like, I'm so tired. I'm growing toenails this week. I'm like, this week the baby is getting its lungs. Like, I just need my rest to do that. so that was really fun to just kind of follow along and see exactly what was happening to my baby. My husband was absolutely adorable. He read to the baby every day. So we had this little Dr. Seuss book. Oh the places you'll go And he would read that to my belly And like it was just so cute. I was like if you told me when we met in college That someday you would be sitting here reading a book to the baby in my belly. I would have never believed you like Definitely didn't peg you as that guy so it was really cute to see that transformation in our relationship too and watch him step into fatherhood. From the beginning which was cool because not every dad I know is like That into it right some of them get kind of freaked out And he had his own kind of freak out things in the bedroom. Like that was probably one of the things where, you know, the bigger I got, the less sex we were having, the less intimacy there was because he was like, there's a baby in there. And I'm like, you're not going to get anywhere near it. Like, it's fine. Calm down. He's like, nope. Freaks me out. So there was a lot of mental gymnastics, I think, for him to kind of get into the mood. So, you know, it happened occasionally, but it certainly wasn't probably as frequent as some people's sex lives during pregnancy.

Kiona: 21:32

Yeah, I feel like that is definitely a common thing with partners of being like, I don't know, I feel like I'm going to bump its head or do something, you know?

Karin: 21:39

Totally.

Kiona: 21:40

So, yeah, that is super awesome. And the Sea bands, yes, those are definitely helpful. They make such a big difference. And there's also other things, but I feel like Sea bands are so consistent. once you wear them, you don't really have to think about them. So, yeah, I love that you said you felt like it was for old people

Karin: 22:01

Yeah, it definitely wasn't very, fashionable either. And that made it really hard to hide at work because I had to have those bands on. So I always had to make sure I had a long sleeve shirt on or my suit jacket. Because I was doing the corporate thing then so it was a little easier to hide, than, you know, if you're like a waitress or something with it in their uniform as a short sleeved t shirt or something. I don't know how you hide that. So, they need to come up with, a more fashionable version of those. Sea bands, if you're listening, you're welcome.

Kiona: 22:31

Get to work.

Karin: 22:32

Seriously.

Kiona: 22:33

so let's go ahead and dive into the moment that you realized that birth was imminent. So at what moment Did it hit your minds that, oh, I think I'm actually in labor right now?

Karin: 22:44

well I was going to say, even before that, probably about eight months pregnant, I started reading the Lamaze book. And I got to the little gem about the mucus plug. And I was like, whatty what is going to come out of me? Wait, what? what? everything about me. I was just like horrified. And I had this total panic attack, like there's no going back. this is a one way ticket to birthing. we're doing this. This baby has to come out of me. I have to push this thing out. I mean, obviously, there could have been a C section, but somehow, one way or the other, like, this baby's coming out of me. And that freaked me out so bad. And I was like, trying to explain this to my husband, and he's like, I don't know what to tell you. we're in this. Like, you've gotta do this. So, get it together, Mama, because you need to have this baby. So, that was pretty terrifying. I actually did not know that I was having the baby, until the water broke. So I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, dang it, I peed the bed. I was like, oh, I've heard of pregnant women doing that. That's disgusting. I'm like, what do I do? It was the night after Thanksgiving. Like we had just finished serving that day, big Thanksgiving meal. First time in our new home together as a couple. And I'm like, he's really tired. I'm just gonna let him sleep. I'll just put some towels down. Oh, well, like better or worse, right? So I go to the bathroom and I'm like, this doesn't smell like pee. And so it takes me a minute. I'm like, oh, my water broke. I'm like, well, I don't feel any cramps. I'm like, I'll just go back to bed. So I literally take a towel, throw it down on the sheets. I don't tell him anything. Or maybe I said something like my water broke, but we'll just wait. I don't know. And I go to sleep. wake up about 5 30 in the morning because, and now I can't sleep. I'm like, okay, we're having a baby today. this is it. It's going to, it's going down. I better get mentally prepared. So I put a towel down on the couch. I call the doctor and she's like, get your butt to the hospital. Like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm fine. I don't have any contractions. She's like, you need to come in now. Well, I didn't realize that once the water breaks, all the bacteria and all the stuff can like. impact the baby. you only have a certain amount of time. You got to get that baby out of you. I don't know this. So I'm just like, no, it's fine. I'm like, I'm gonna shower. I gotta shave up. Make sure I look real nice before I get a bunch of people's heads in my vajayjay. Like, let's, let's do this thing. Literally stop and take a picture in front of the door. measuring out my belly. Last looks type of thing. And my husband finally drives me to the hospital at 8. 30 in the morning. The, it, water's been broken since 2. 30. It's crazy. and I really was living life large for the first four hours or so at the hospital. I'm sucking on my preggie pops. I've got my little birthing ball I'm bouncing around on. I'm playing Uno. I feel nothing. So finally they're like, well, we're gonna have to give you some Pitocin, because we have to get this out of you. I'm like, okay. They're like, do you want the Epidural? I'm like, no, I'm good. I was like, my mom had two babies, my grandma had seven. Like, I could do this. There's no reason for that. My doctor's looking at me like, Okay, like, you sure? For real, for real? I'm like, I'm fine. Start the Pitocin, not too much, not too much. Okay, all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, all right. I felt something there. Okay, and next thing you know. I'm like, just gripped. It's like blackout. Like I can't even see, there's like maybe a little bit of stars in my periphery. My fingernails are just digging into my husband's arms. I feel like I'm gonna crap my pants. I'm like, I don't know what's happening or what you people gave me, but you need to stop it. Because this is terrible. And it was like that for a little bit, and I finally was like, okay. I'm going to tap out. Get me the epidural. and I, look, I'm so glad that there are so many amazing birthing options now. they were somewhat talked about when I was having my children, you know, 14 years ago, but really not to the level now. Midwives and all these kinds of things, and doulas, I mean, so much more common now to have home birthing experiences and stuff. But I just, I was like, I just give me the epidural. I don't need to deal with this. I don't need to be a hero. I'm not getting a trophy because I didn't use the epidural. I'm gonna just hedge my bets and hope that this anesthesiologist really knows what he's doing. And it went perfectly fine. It was a little nerve wracking when you're sitting there with the pillow, hugging the pillow, and they're like, don't move. And I like, I did go to move and they were like, we said, don't, and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to be paralyzed. So it was a little terrifying, but once it was done, I was like, ah, this is great. This is easy street again. But, actually it really wasn't because I couldn't feel anything because I was so numb, they kept yelling at me to push, push, push. And I was like, I think I'm pushing. I don't know how to push any different. I can't feel my muscles to push. So again, hindsight's probably 20 20. I don't know that I was any better off with it, but I just, I don't know that I could have. Functioned to get that. I don't know how that would have gone down if I hadn't so that was my story I had the epidural and then I tore really badly and that was like Probably the thing I remember most about my birthing experience Was the tear not actually the tear itself because I was so numb. I didn't feel anything, but it was afterwards when she was sewing me up, I was like, what do you mean, what do you mean you have to repair me? what are you sewing up down? I'm confused. And she's oh, you tore pretty bad. I'm like, what do you mean? and I write about this in the book with the episiotomy and kind of the advice I had been given and I didn't really do my due diligence to understand the benefits or, The risks of an episiotomy. I just took people's word for granted like okay, I shouldn't get this and I didn't really explore what would be best for my body So to anyone listening who is about to go through a birthing process just do your due diligence I'll never tell you one way or the other what you should do for your body but I definitely wish I had gotten that episiotomy the first time because it would have been a controlled tear It would have been much easier to repair And you know mine never healed so I have torn labia, which is I mean, really, at the end of the day, who cares? I'm alive, right? my baby is healthy, everything's fine. But it's just one of those things where it's like, dang, she would be so much prettier if she weren't torn in half.

Kiona: 29:21

Yeah, that is something that is not really talked about much when it comes to the decisions with an episiotomy or not. You do hear a lot, you know, the way that your body naturally tears is better because it's at the weakest spot or it'll heal better. But people don't think about where the tear is going to take place, what the repair is going to look like on top of how. the provider who is repairing you, how skilled they are, like how skilled the provider is. So there's a lot to take into consideration, but it's just so hard because there are so many moving parts when it comes to pregnancy and birth that you're like, what do you hang on to? What do you not? And of course, I feel like everybody has This feeling of well, only if I did this instead of that in their pregnancy or in their birth process or if they made one slight decision that was just a little bit different, it could have ended up differently. And that would have happened even if the decision was changed, you know what I mean? Like, they would always have something to look back on and say, ah, only if. Like, for example, if you did get an episiotomy, the first time, you would not have known What your experience was going to be like, and you could have been like, Oh man, I should have listened to my mom. Like, this is really, you know, so it's just so hard to hang on to every single piece of advice because you just do what you can as best as you can. Right.

Karin: 30:52

And I think too, I didn't really understand after, I don't know if I just was so out to lunch or so busy with the baby. I just didn't understand that I should also be checking on how this repair is going down there. And so it wasn't until some time later that I actually broke out the hand mirror and I was like, all right, let's check out the damage. How is V, who is the character in my book for my vagina, right, like, how is V doing? let's check her out. And I see that she is like hanging in the wind like these two labia like supposed to be connected or not and I'm like this seems wrong, you know, but if I had caught this sooner then that outer skin wouldn't have been able to Heal so that they could reattach it But because I waited so long to alert them to the fact that the stitches had failed then there was really nothing else that they could do and so that also frustrated me that it was like Oh, I should have known better. I should have kept a closer eye on all these things But you know, it's like they don't, they talk about the postpartum, watch out for that, or this, you know, make sure you're breastfeeding, make sure you're doing this. But it just, for your own personal self care, sometimes I just feel like I missed it or I didn't get the memo. I don't know. And that, that frustrated me a little bit.

Kiona: 32:12

yeah, I can definitely see how you got the idea and how I will say many people get the idea of like, don't look down there. Yeah. You don't need to look down there. You know, a lot of people are like, don't do it. You're going to regret it. It's not the same, you know? And of course, it's not the same, but why is it not the same? Is it different because your stitches didn't heal? Is it different because you're just a little swollen? Like, why is it different? So I do think it's important for people to check themselves out, but even beforehand, to know what you look like beforehand so that you have a reference of what you can potentially look like after, you know? I know in your book you also mentioned that your husband told you multiple times that you don't know anything about your vagina and you should write a book about your vagina so other people know. To think about their vaginas, which is such a good point, to be honest, and of course, it's going to come from a man that says,

Karin: 33:16

I know.

Kiona: 33:17

Learn more about your body. but in your book, you also mentioned that he had stated he knows more about his genitalia because it's on the outside. So it's easy for him to figure out and learn about. But for us, it's different because everything is internal, right? Like our ovaries, our uterus, everything is inside us. And so. It's harder to learn unless we're trying to get real adventurous to figure it out.

Karin: 33:40

right, yes, exactly. And it was really funny because even things like my cycle, like I just never could really track my cycle. And he would be like, how do you not know if your period's late? And I'm like, I just, I don't know, it's been a while. So there was always that going on too. And finally, it was in chapter 30, all lubed up with nowhere to go. Which is a fun one. Where the doctor, as I was preparing for birth, so that I wouldn't tear, how ironic, said, rub olive oil And do that like perineal massage so that you're really like Softening the skin and it'll be more supple I'm like, oh my gosh what I am not putting olive oil anywhere down there. No, that sounds like a bad idea I got a urinary tract infection once from experimenting with body butter. Like let's not put anything down there. That is not soap But of course I got sucked into it and was like, let's just try this because I really didn't want to tear And it was a disaster. I mean, the olive oil was everywhere. And that was really kind of the final straw where my husband was like, What happened in the bathroom? He's like, Okay, you should write a book because it is just clear you don't know how anything down there works. I'm like, Ugh. Burn, you know, like those are harsh words, but he wasn't wrong. He wasn't wrong. And so that was actually the original title of the book, was I Don't Know My Vagina. And it was gonna be like other secrets from the, you know, female secrets or something. I don't know, but I am glad we updated it to the ins and outs. I think it's more, it's a more fun title and it's got all the double entendres and fun wordplay, but Yeah, that was the original title because, you know, people say, Oh, is this book I'm going to really learn everything about my vagina? I'm like, well, maybe. You might learn a few things, but really it's sort of that comedy is in the fact that I am so inept at understanding my own body in many instances. that's where so much of the humor comes from.

Kiona: 35:36

Yeah. And I think that's very relatable, super, super relatable. let's go ahead and dive into the conception of your second living son. how did that come

Karin: 35:49

Yeah, well he, my husband was right on target with that one because we got pregnant pretty much first try. And we thought maybe because of everything that had happened in the past that it would take a little bit longer with the second one. We're like, great, we're going to space them out. They'll be like maybe two years apart or three years apart. They were 18 months apart, so very close. together. but that one also had a very rocky beginning. I went to the doctor, took the pregnancy test, and although I had taken one at home, you know, they want to confirm it at your OB appointment. And she was like, Karin, I don't see the pregnancy. You gotta go right now to the hospital and get an emergency ultrasound. this might be ectopic again. And it's like, oh god, here we go again. Don't put me through this again. I can't handle this I mean, of course I could have and I would have but it's like one of those things You're just like no, no, no, no, please. Tell me this is like a joke or something and so you get to the hospital and The woman is doing her ultrasound and it was internal so, you know, they got to jam that wand up inside of you and they're taking their pictures and They get done, she leaves the room, doctor comes running in like a bat out of hell and is like, you have to have emergency laparoscopic surgery right now. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah, he's like, we can't tell, but we think it's in the ovary or in the, fallopian tube again. we have to get this out of you today. And I just, of course, again, the waterworks, bawling my eyes out. But something, like a little voice, you know, sometimes you hear those little whispers in your head, just was like, wait a second, hold on. What did that technician say to you in that room? And she, you know, the technician isn't really allowed to talk to you, but thank God she had said one thing to me. And the only thing she said was, I can't tell, that might be a burst cyst. And I have had a history of ovarian cysts. And that one little voice was enough for me to say, Wait a second, okay, I hear you doctor, but I need to talk to my OB. Like, I'm not making any decisions until I talk to her, until I talk to my husband. And I call the OB and I'm like, Can you look at this? A thing and tell me what you think and she's like, oh, she's like I gotta be honest. I'm not confident I don't know yet. She's like I will let you go home But I swear to you if you have one instance of pain one like iota of discomfort I want you back in here immediately. This is life or death where you can't do this again and just walk around bleeding for days So i'm like, okay Call my husband, he's like, yep, don't do anything. He's like, if you can wait, wait until you start actually experiencing pain and we know. And it just, it makes me like almost physically sick when I even think about this. because he wanted to terminate my pregnancy and if I had listened to him, my son Ryan would not be here right now and he is here. And that scares the crap out of me because a lot of times I think when we hear a doctor say something to us, we have that authority. They're in that white jacket and they've got that little badge and they've got that MD next to their name and we're like, well you know more than me. But we all have that gift of intuition and we all have that gift of our inner voice and sometimes we need to trust our own intuition over people who have science and backgrounds and doctorates and things of that nature. and sometimes it's a balance, right? But if I had blindly followed his recommendation, my son wouldn't be here. That's crazy. That's so scary.

Kiona: 39:35

It is. It is very scary. And, this just goes to show that we know our bodies and doctors are humans too. You know, doctors make mistakes. Doctors also practice on the side of fear and liability of, okay, you were seen by me. I suggest this, but now you're going away. Did they make you sign An AMA like against medical advice thing before you left.

Karin: 40:03

That's a good question. I don't remember. Yeah, I can't recall. It's been obviously, you know, 12 years and I think there was just so much emotion swirled up in that moment that, yeah, I don't remember if they did that or not.

Kiona: 40:19

Yeah. And you know, sometimes I feel like they might not have even asked you to sign in against medical advice form because it was still so early and things like, needed to figure. out what way it was going. Cause it was inconclusive. It wasn't solid. So way to follow your gut. Cause now you got your second kiddo. And that's so, so awesome to be able to do that. So speaking of him, let's fast forward into, his pregnancy. Did you experience any intense symptoms with this one? How was this pregnancy for you?

Karin: 40:53

the first one I was really religious about putting the body butter on every day. Like the cocoa butter and everything so that I didn't get stretch marks. And I don't know with this one what I was thinking because he was also way bigger. And I just had this torpedo that shot out of me. It was the, it was a very, it was very oblong. Like I just had a very misshapen stomach. And probably like seven or eight months in, I was like, what are all these red marks on my stomach? What's happening? And my doctor was like, Girlfriend, those are stretch marks. And I was like, oh No, I mean they were bad Unlike you probably never seen. I mean, well now i'm also italian. I might be exaggerating slightly They were the worst things i'd ever seen I'm sure someone in the world had worse stretch marks than me, but they were bad and I was like Now, I don't know that cocoa butter would have even saved me But I remember being at work, just speaking of the oblong shape, and I remember people commenting on my body. And saying something like, wow, Karin, you're just such an odd shape. It's so funny. Your belly is so weird how it sticks out like that. And I just had this like shawl cover up thing, you know, that from motherhood maternity or whatever that was really big that you could wrap around your body. And I put it over my stomach and I just wanted to hide. I wanted to leave that business conference so bad. I was so mortified and I was just like, stop looking at my body. my body is of no concern to you. And these were not just men. These were men and women that were sitting around, commenting on my body. Like, it was nothing. And that was definitely something I don't remember experiencing with the first one, but I think it was because maybe I was so much smaller, I didn't stretch as much and just the baby was smaller. So. I didn't really have a lot of that. I had a lot of, Oh, you're so cute. Oh, I can barely tell you're pregnant. And then with the second one, I was like, whoa. And I'm like, okay, this is not. Helpful, banter. Thank you. I don't need those comments. and then I got with my second one, right towards the end, I started getting really itchy. I'm like, oh my gosh, these stretch marks are itching me. What's going on? I would just slather on the lotion. It wouldn't help. And it wasn't until after I actually gave birth, it didn't go away and it started to spread to the rest of my body. Well, I got pup rash. And so, I think, it's like a really low percentage of women who get pup rash. But, so lucky me. And, that was horrible. I had never experienced anything like that. And all I could do was like, okay, this baby's crying. I need to feed this baby. Itch, itch, itch. Oh my gosh, I have to do this thing for myself. I have to get a shower. Itch, itch, itch. all I could think about all day long was how much I was itching. And there's no cure for it. There's nothing you can do. So my husband did a ton of research and found that like dandelion root might help. But the heat actually made it really bad and this was the middle of July. He was born in June but then, you know, middle of July I'm still dealing with this. And we would go outside for a walk or go to dinner or anytime I was outside in the heat it would just exacerbate it. And I think that that really contributed to a lot of the postpartum depression that I experienced because I just didn't see a light at the end of the tunnel. And even though I had my mom there to help right after the pregnancy, and we had support, it, again, it still was that very, lonely feeling of no one understands what I'm going through right now. And I'm the only one who can walk through this. When is this gonna end? and then throw on top of that, I find out that I have a diastasis recti and a hernia. And that the only way I will get rid of this pouch, you know, I was breastfeeding so I was dropping the pounds like crazy and I've always been a tiny woman, I still am. and so I was like, I'm doing all the things, why can't I lose this pouch? I'm laying in bed one night and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm like, I think you can feel my intestines. I'm like, I think that's poop. And I'm like, babe, feel this. He's like, no. And I'm like, you gotta feel this. I'm like, just feel this. Maybe I'm crazy. And he's like, oh my god, that's disgusting. He's like, don't ever make me do that again. And I was like, okay, there's definitely something wrong. And so I go to the doctor. Meanwhile, I'm itching like crazy. And he's like, you can do as many sit ups as you want, but you're never, you're always going to have this pouch. you're never going to get rid of this because you have a tear. Basically, the fascia that holds your two abs together has been ripped. So it's separated. And all of your intestines and everything are kind of just spilling out. There's nothing to hold them back. And I'm like, well, what do we do about this? He's like, surgery. And I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me. I just birthed a baby. I'm covered in this hideous pup rash. And everyone at Target, every time I go to get formula, runs the other way. It's like pulling their children away from me. Because it was covered, my whole body was covered in this rash. And people are like, looking at me like I'm crazy. And now you're telling me I have to be cut back open? Oh, by the way, I'm still a workaholic, so I'm like, well, how am I gonna swing that with work? I'm trying to get promoted. When I get back, I've got plans to climb this ladder. What do you mean I have to have surgery and be out for another six to eight weeks? This is not going to fly. but that was my only option. So I did end up going through that. And the silver lining was they got rid of all those wonderful stretch marks. So there's a couple that they didn't quite get, but I mean it's, it's wonderful compared to what I would have had otherwise. So I guess I have, I give a little bit to be thankful for.

Kiona: 46:46

Silver lining. There's always a silver lining in everything, right? goodness, there's a lot to unpack there because pup rash is intense and there is no solution. You kind of just got to wait till it's done. and it's so unfortunate because I wish that there was something else that could be done. even a recommendation of something to help the itching stop outside of like steroid cream, you know? and then the diastasis recti, that is so common, and most of the time, it will correct itself, but there's some times when it doesn't, and then you have that experience that you had, which is where your body is kind of like coming out, and you gotta figure out how to do it, and then most of the time, people don't catch that it's not. resolving until way beyond its healing time because they're like, isn't this supposed to be different? I don't remember this being here. This is a really big gap right here, you know? but then, yeah, just dealing with all of that is really intense. So you did touch on something that I want to go back to, which you had mentioned that you had postpartum depression. So I'm going to kind of trickle back. I do want to talk about the postpartum depression after your second son, but did you experience any of it after your first?

Karin: 47:55

Yep, I definitely did. And, I didn't tell anyone. Because, you know, mental health wasn't really talked about then, and it's talked about more now, but I mean, even now, if it happened to me, I probably wouldn't have told anyone until later when I went on podcasts or something. You know, because, I don't know. There was a I definitely felt like, well, I should be stronger than this. Why can't I handle this? Why am I feeling like this? And for me it was, you know, like I never wanted to hurt my baby or anything like that. Like I, I didn't have those kinds of thoughts, thank God. it was more like these irrational thoughts. about my husband, that he was finding this mermaid on TV on the Nickelodeon channel attractive. Like, an animated mermaid, okay? not a real human that was, like, dressed up like a mermaid. an animated mermaid, okay? And it was the most irrational thing ever. But in the moment, there was, I could not control that fear and frustration and anger. I know we went one time to the park, and there was this gorgeous brunette, and he's always, you know, been a brunette guy. and she, this woman in this yellow sundress, a huge chest, gorgeous body. And she's just traipsing about in this cute little dress on the playground with like her two friends. And I'm like, B, you need to get out of here, okay? Because this is the mom section and we all frumpy over here and not looking good or taken care of. So I need you to take your cute little butt and just take it anywhere but this playground right now. Now, whether my husband checked her out or not, I have no idea. I didn't catch him looking at her or anything. He probably wasn't even paying attention, you know what I mean? But to me, it was like, He's not going to want me anymore. I had a hard time, I think, too, because I am so petite and I've always been in pretty good shape. not having my body be my own and not feeling like I had any control over my shape and size was just a frustrating experience for me.

Kiona: 50:03

Yeah. And it's, yes, yes, yes. I, I agree with you and I hear you and I can relate. Your body changes so much from the moment you find out you're pregnant, or even before you find out, from the moment you become pregnant, your body is shifting and changing, and your hormones are fluctuating, and, like, your fat sits on your body differently, and you're like, what is happening? this is really weird.

Karin: 50:29

like, why didn't I get to keep those breasts? They were fantastic. they were so great. But then, you know, my brain does the other thing, was doing the other thing where it's oh, well, he liked that. Maybe you should get breast implants. Maybe your body normally isn't good enough anymore. You know, now that he's had this taste, is this what he's always gonna want? You know, and it's just, It's so unfounded and it's so ridiculous and he's a thousand times reassured me like, Babe, I love your body. You're perfect. Like, no, I would never want you to get implants. What if you couldn't detect breast cancer, like, that runs in your family? Like, no, I would never want you to do anything to jeopardize your health. But it's these ridiculous little things that I think, and maybe being even ridiculous isn't fair. Because they were real thoughts, right? And they, came from somewhere. So, but these thoughts that we create that aren't really reality, that for me was like toxic and I think a lot of it came from that postpartum or got louder during the postpartum.

Kiona: 51:23

yeah. That's totally valid. Totally valid. And so, during your second postpartum experience, what was different? Was there a big difference between how you experienced postpartum depression the first time around versus the second?

Karin: 51:37

there was a lot more crying

Kiona: 51:39

Mhm.

Karin: 51:39

because now I have two kids and so one wants to be held all the time. The older one actually. My younger one was a, I thought my first baby was a good baby. When my second one came around, I was like, Oh, you were really good baby because my first one always wanted to be held. And so I, all of a sudden didn't really have that much time, but he would just crawl into my lap, you know, because he was bigger now. Like 18, 19, 20 months. So he's getting in that space or pushing the baby out. So I'm like, okay. I will set the baby in the bouncer and he would just hang out in there, you know, like for hours And i'm like, okay cool. Like I put him in the swing. He'd be fine in the swing. So It was when they were like both crying that I would really start to lose it and I would just be crying and i'm like I'm not cut out for this. I don't know how people do how do my mom my grandma have such Seven like what I'm like, I would be an alcoholic like there's no way I can handle this because I had wanted more I wanted to have a big family and then you know I had a couple and was like maybe maybe this isn't for me. But I don't know it felt like the a lot of it was just that Overwhelm, and I don't know why. I mean, my husband actually helps a lot. he did help a lot. We had family close by if we really needed help. They, you know, come and stay with us for a little while, but it just felt like everything was hard, and maybe my expectations were just too high, and I thought that it should be easier, and then I just would beat myself up that it wasn't. I'm not really sure. I don't really know the why per se, but. Yeah, there was just a lot more crying the second time around and like, why won't everyone else stop crying? Can we just all agree that there's no crying allowed and that we're gonna actually sleep through the night? And I think a lot of that is too, you know, sleep deprivation is rough. Really rough. And when I went back to work, that's when it really got hard. because we also had an agreement, my husband's an electrician, and I'm like, okay, if I screw up at work, I get maybe scolded by my boss. I'm like, if you screw up at work, you get electrocuted and die. we cannot have that. So I'm like, Sunday through Thursday night, baby cries, I'm up. Friday, Saturday, baby cries, you're up. Because now you can sleep during the day and you can recoup. But, that was kind of the agreement that we decided in our house would work for us. But, oh my gosh, I just remember driving to work being like, I don't know, maybe I'll just drive into a tree. Like, I didn't want to die. I just wanted, like, a couple of weeks off. I just need a little, like, vacay. Uh, a little mental health break. and that, I think, also, is that, postpartum depression thoughts that come up that you're, like, you wouldn't normally think something like that. Like, that idea would never normally cross your mind. And so that can be a clue for people, right? Anyone listening who has either experienced those thoughts or who can now be present that when they go through the birthing process, if they have some thoughts like that, like, oh, this is what postpartum depression can look like. This is how it can manifest itself in you. and don't just circle the happy face at your next visit like I did, talk to somebody because there's so much support out there and ways to get help and even just not feel alone in it. That you don't have to go through it by yourself.

Kiona: 55:00

Yeah, I agree. I agree with you because, everything you just said makes so much sense. And really talking about it is the important part, right? And then realizing how it can manifest in yourself with those intrusive thoughts. Those are really scary. And you're like, Whoa, what the heck? And then you're just like, okay, well, it was a small moment. I'm just going to keep driving and do this. But those are little signs here and there that yes, you're tired, but two, you could be experiencing postpartum depression. And it's not, the thing that's hard is people in society. I feel like they look at postpartum depression as a negative label when really it's a normal experience. And it's, well, I, it's hard here because I want to bounce the terms normal and common between these two, because is it normal to experience it? Who knows really, right? Like, the hope is that you don't experience postpartum depression. And yeah. Everything is lolita and happy and fine, but it is very common to experience postpartum depression. So when you do experience it, reach out for help. Cause there is a reason that the resources are there. There's a lot of different kinds of resources. There's like virtual resources, in person resources, and postpartum gets pushed to the sidelines after your baby's born. That needs to change. It's part of the reason why you potentially experienced not realizing that you had your stitches not heal properly because you weren't being checked on by a provider and saying, Hey, how's it going down there? You know, so. I think that bringing it up and talking about it here is really important to say, yeah, let's talk about it. let's figure out how best to resolve this. So yes, Karin, I'm super excited to share your stories with the world and get this out there. Before we do bounce off of this interview, I want to talk to you a little bit about your book and what inspired you to write it.

Karin: 57:01

sure. So, I mean, obviously part of it was my husband because he sort of planted that seed and at first I was like, I don't know, I mean, who's gonna read a book about my vagina? Like, is this really gonna be a thing? And I started thinking about all the stories and I mean today we touched so much on the pregnancy side of things But obviously I share everything up from the very early days puberty getting my period for the first time having sex for the first time urinary tract, infections. I talk about bikini waxes I mean, there's so many other topics that I share that I think are really important in a Part of many women's lives, right? We all go through many of these similar experiences. And so many times I felt like my body was broken. My body was the only one doing this. I'm the only person who struggles to orgasm or whatever. And as I started doing the research for the book and seeing if there's anything else like this out in the market, I'm like, there's not. And there has to be other women like me who are walking around clueless about their body, frustrated with their body, feeling like they're the only one who isn't having the world's greatest sex life. I'm like, I gotta talk about this stuff and make these seemingly taboo topics become part of everyday conversation so that other young girls, women, I mean, the book is for 18 and up, I say. I mean, if you know that you have a 16 year old and they're already sexually active or whatever and they're mature enough to handle the content, fine, but I really recommend it. pretty much 18 and up is kind of, who the book is geared for. But like, let's start having those conversations so that we can be aware of these things before they happen. you know, like I had a urinary tract infection. I thought I had an STD because no one had ever told me that there was such a thing as a urinary tract infection. And I'm like, oh, okay. So the, I want people to be educated about this stuff ahead of time and not find out about it on the back end. And so. It was not easy. There was a lot of conversations with my husband and I'm like, this is your idea. And he's like, I didn't know you were going to write all this in there. Like, I didn't mean like that. so, you know, we did change names of the kids. I changed names of everybody in there, except for my sister. She was the only one that was like, eh, I don't care. You can use my real name. so everybody else, just to protect them and give them a little bit of privacy. Cause they didn't. Sign up for this necessarily. But it's felt really good. I've gotten a ton of good feedback and even things like, you know, I talk about in eighth grade where I'm in a situation with a boy that I didn't want to be in, but I didn't know how to say no, and I didn't know how to get out of that. And so hopefully there will be parents or aunts or people who can talk about. this with their nieces or their children or, the kids that they are responsible for influence and say, hey, if this ever happens to you, how would you handle it? So maybe you don't let them read the book, but you can use the topics in the book to discuss this stuff ahead of time so that they're better equipped than I was.

Kiona: 1:00:05

Yeah, no, I agree. So I had just finished the book and I absolutely loved it. I felt like it was written so well. I also really love How you go through your linear discoveries throughout your life, you know, like, Oh, what is this the part that got me like hooked me obviously is right in the beginning where you were like, Oh, I have a penis, you know, running after your mom. I have a penis. and she's like, No, honey, that is not a penis. Okay, that is your clit. So let's learn a little bit. But yeah, I love that. I think it's a really great book that is informational. It's real. It talks about, the struggles of orgasm as well as when it's accomplished and how awesome that felt. And then also how long it took and how you had a committed partner who was willing to help and try, and it just didn't work. And that's okay. Cause you're learning together and you know, all of it. So I loved it all. And of course I was absolutely loved that the ending was like your pregnancy and birth experiences. Cause that's my jam. I was waiting to get there. And, Yeah, it's just really good and I will definitely be sharing it. I did really think about how one day I want my daughter to read this book, but she's 10 right now. And you know, once I got to like chapter three, I was like, nah, she can't read this book.

Karin: 1:01:27

Yeah! Hahaha.

Kiona: 1:01:30

it is a very good book and I really appreciate you putting in the effort to even create it for the community. So I think that's awesome.

Karin: 1:01:36

Thank you. It was a long time coming. I started in 2009 when I was on maternity leave with my first, and it wasn't until 2021 that I brought it to market. So it, it was the right time, the right I'm glad I waited as long as I did because it was a more well thought out book and it rounded it out. but it's so great to hear how much you enjoyed it because it is my heart and soul and it's my life. I mean, it's all some of my most intimate experiences. And so thank you. Thank you for taking the time to read it and share your thoughts.

Kiona: 1:02:05

Yeah, no, absolutely. so before we close out, I do have just three final closing questions for you. And the first question is, if you had one piece of advice for people who are pregnant and preparing for labor and birth, what would that be?

Karin: 1:02:22

I would say listen to everyone's advice. But don't necessarily take all of the advice, right? So listen to it all, because the example I always give is when your baby is crying at 3am in the morning, suddenly sticking him in the car seat and putting him on top of the dryer, it like sounds like a really good idea, right? Where you're like, Maybe normally that doesn't sound like something I would do, but when they will not stop crying, you're like, I will try anything. So just listen to all of the advice and then take what you think is going to work for you.

Kiona: 1:02:53

Yeah, I think that is also a good piece of advice to take advice, because it's true. And you won't know what will work for you or even what to try until it's put out there and exposed to you. So I think that's really cool. So what is one resource that we can share with our listeners on your behalf? Of course, we will share your book and link everybody to that, but is there anything else related to your pregnancy, birth, or postpartum period that you would want to resource out?

Karin: 1:03:21

Well, I don't know about the, related specifically to the pregnancy, but what I will say is on my website, Karinfreeland. com, the number six, hyphen secrets, there is a free e guide. And this is really for women who find themselves kind of stuck in the mom rut, right? And you start to ask yourself, okay, like I've had kids, this has been great, but I'm not deriving my entire purpose from my children, right? Like I still feel like something's missing, like I'm stuck in life. What is my identity? Cause I went through this big time at the end of my thirties and felt like a midlife crisis to be honest. And so as I started to figure out how to pull myself out of that, these are the six secrets. that I uncovered for myself that I love to share with other people to help them get unstuck. So, that's more part of my life coaching business, but, it's a great free resource for anyone who needs that support.

Kiona: 1:04:12

Awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely send that out as well, because, after you have a baby, a lot of people, me included, struggled with finding out who I was outside of being a mom, you know, and finding out where do I come in? What can I do? Like, am I allowed to just be like, all right, take the baby. I'm out of here. I need to go get coffee or something, you know? So I get that. I totally understand that for sure. Now, the last question I have for you is if you could describe your births with one word, what would it be?

Karin: 1:04:42

Accomplishment. I mean, of course, we all want to say, like, a joyful experience, but I mean, we just, you just listened to this whole episode, if you're still here, thank you, you realize that there was a lot of not joyous moments, right, and so for me, I think it just, it's really, it is a beautiful accomplishment, but if it was one word, accomplishment.

Kiona: 1:05:01

Yeah. Oh, I love it. I love it. So Karin, thank you so much for coming on today. I am so excited and I really appreciate you for chatting with me.

Karin: 1:05:10

Thank you, Kiona, this was so much fun. I appreciate the opportunity to share my book and my story.

Kiona: 1:05:15

Absolutely. I was incredibly overjoyed by the time I finished this interview with Karen. I learned so much. And her memoir, the ins and outs of my vagina is truly an amazing book. I highly recommend that you all read it. And if you want to learn more about it, go to Karen freeland.com. I will be sure to post all of the links in the show notes on my webpage, as well as in the description. So that is available for you as well. Now, if you are still listening, that tells me that you are a true BAWKI listener. And that also tells me that you like this content. So, if that is true, I highly encourage you to please join the birth. As we know it, podcast, Facebook community. You can do that by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/community. And join us because we're going to have a good time. If you want to support the production of this podcast. I would highly encourage you to do so because you supporting this podcast, makes it possible for me to produce this content and get it out to you and help educate others as well as ourselves in the process, you can support by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com/support. As for the next episode, I will be interviewing Alison Goyne, who is the owner of Believe In Birth and she will be sharing how her first birth experience was traumatic, but that encouraged her to become a birth worker. So when she had a surprise second pregnancy that led her to making different decisions and having a very redemptive birth that she values till this day. So tune in because there's a lot of good info shared. All right, friends. I look forward to talking to you again soon. Bye. for now.