63-Tessa & Jeff Sanders-IVF-2 Vaginal Births-Marcela & Rosie-5AM Miracle

In this episode, Tessa and Jeff share their conception journey with IVF and talk about the two birth stories of their daughters Maisie and Rosie. Let’s just say that both ended up being accidentally unassisted because Tessa utilized hypnobirthing techniques. 

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/63 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Resources:

• Jeff Sanders: https://www.jeffsanders.com/ 
  1. 5 A.M. Miracle Podcast: https://www.jeffsanders.com/podcast/ 
• Hypno-Babies: https://www.hypnobabies-store.com/ 
• Ina Mays Guide to Childbirth 

Definitions:

• Antisperm Antibodies
• In Vitro Fertilization (IVF) 
• Rupture of Membranes (ROM) (Water Breaking) 
• Retained Placenta 
• Precipitous Birth
• Ferguson / Fetal Ejection Reflex (FER)

Transcript

Intro: 0:08

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.

Disclaimer: 1:06

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your license provider.

Kiona: 1:26

Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast today. I am super excited to be talking to two awesome individuals. I will give a shout out to Scott here and say that he's the one that made the connection. And I am talking with Tessa and Jeff Sanders today. Tessa is the assistant director of the doctoral programs at Lipscomb University and Jeff is the host of the Five Miracle Podcast, which is a podcast dedicated to dominating your day before breakfast. So welcome, Jeff and Tessa. Thanks for coming on today.

Tessa: 1:59

Thanks for having us.

Kiona: 2:01

Yeah. So I'm super excited to get into the nitty gritty of this. I got a little sneak peek of what your stories sound like because you did it on your podcast. Jeff Let's dive into it by starting off with the conception process. How was that for you guys?

Jeff: 2:19

I think Tessa should probably go with you on this one.

Tessa: 2:22

let's start with when I was a doctoral candidate.I was trying to get my doctorate and I was like, I had this perfect plan for how the timeline was going to go with starting a family. I graduated my doctorate. Things were not happening. And so eventually we did some testing and found out that I had what they call Anti-sperm antibodies. So we were not going to get pregnant the natural way or the likelihood was very low. So we sort of right then shifted to the IVF path and started learning all about IVF. Both of our girls are test tube babies, if you will.

Kiona: 2:56

Awesome. Yeah, that's interesting because that's honestly the first time I've ever heard the term anti sperm antibodies.

Tessa: 3:03

I think it's pretty rare. It took them a while to find them.

Jeff: 3:06

It was our first time hearing that term too, so it was new to us.

Kiona: 3:10

Yeah. So when you found that out, what were your emotions behind it like? Were you sad or were you like, Okay, let's just take the next step. Like, what were your thoughts?

Tessa: 3:19

I mean, in a way, I think with anybody who's having medical issues, if you want to call it that, it's nice to sort of have a diagnosis so you can say like and now like, you know, there are there are other fertility treatments that don't work if you have this certain type of antibodies. So we sort of knew like, okay, we're not going to try these other things. IVF has a high success rate with anti sperm antibodies, so we're going to go that path. So it was in a way, i was nice to know that like we don't need to try these other things that a typical family might try before deciding to do IVF because IVF is pretty expensive and sort of invasive and all this stuff. So it was nice to sort of know that like that is going to be our path forward if we if we want to do it, you know, sort of ourselves.

Jeff: 4:02

And I think also at that time, we wound up like discovering, okay, we try to get pregnant. It's not working. Here's the reason for it. And there are medical interventions that are effective today that didn't exist, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And so in many ways, we're very fortunate that IVF exists at all and that there was a path forward that was possible as difficult as it is, I mean, knowing all the details of what it is, it's complicated, it's messy, it's expensive, it's crazy, but it's possible. And it has worked twice for us and could, in theory, work again, although we don't have that option anymore because we donated our eggs. But that's a whole different story too. So. But yeah, but it works. And it worked for us.

Kiona: 4:41

I think that's a really important point to bring up is the fact that it is something that is available today. It's something that people can reach out for and accessible. There are even some insurances that will cover IVF depending on how you ended up there. So that is very important and so interesting. So I guess my question is, what is it that they did to determine that that was the diagnosis? Was it a blood draw?

Jeff: 5:08

I think was a blood test. Yea.

Tessa: 5:10

Yeah. And then they you know, th other fertility treatments where you like time you use, like pharmaceutical drugs like time your egg release and you put the sperm in at the same time and all that stuff, which is typically what you would try like a few rounds before you did decide to do IVF. And we were maybe in the middle of one of those.

Jeff: 5:28

We had done one and the test results came back in the middle of that one. This is not like this is a waste of time. Let's move on to more hard core solutions.

Kiona: 5:37

About. How long were you guys trying before you realized that it wasn't happen naturally?

Tessa: 5:44

Well, I sort of as I don't know, maybe other women have experienced this, but like I had a plan and so I had been like, tracking my periods, my cycles. I remember one time, I think, Jeff, you were with me, we went in to see like a fertility doctor or something. And I like out this little post-it note. Do you remember this?

Jeff: 6:01

Yo have lots of documents. You've got so much documentation. It's crazy.

Tessa: 6:05

I whipped out a post here that had my like. cycle. An you're like, What? Like, why are you bringing all these, notes and post-it notes and all this stuff? And the doctor, like, looked at it really seriously and she's like, Well, if you've been trying and like, tracking your cycle for six months or more and you haven't had a pregnancy, then that is considered like time to look into it a little bit more. So I'm glad that I had done some of that tracking, had a very like irregular period. So the numbers were all over the place. But it was, you know, partly that that made her say like this actually does warrant like looking into a little bit more. We also we're not like the youngest couple. And so I think after you reach I mean, at the time I when we did this the first time I was in my early thirties, but even then they're like, if you want to have multiple kids, we need to get this ball rolling. So we don't want to just keep trying and trying for months and months before we call it. And so we were fortunate that they were like, Yeah, this probably is some fertility issue, like let's start doing testing and see what we can find. And they kept digging until they found these infamous antibodies.

Kiona: 7:09

Wow. Yeah, that sounds like a journey for sure. And I definitely have a lot of listeners that are planners and would consider themselves Type A to get things done and get it done properly and on time. So I appreciate that. Like, I can respect all of the effort that you put into the tracking for that, I give you kudos.

Jeff: 7:29

Well, that was just the beginning, too, because once IVF started, there's a whole slew of data and timing and tests and more tests and more interventions. And it's a process that was just the beginning and things got crazier after that.

Kiona: 7:44

Actually, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. What was your timeline from diagnosis of anti sperm antibodies to embryo pregnancy implantation?

Tessa: 7:56

I think we decided pretty quickly after we got the diagnosis that we were going to do IVF. And then, of course, it's all based on your cycle. So you have to like you have to be in the doctor's office day one of your cycle for them to like, take blood and like track all your levels. And then right away you sort of start all sorts of like hormone injections and all sorts of stuff, patches and all sorts of hormonal stuff. And then they track you, they take your blood every like. I don't know. It seems like every time you go in, maybe once a month for the first little while. But it started pretty quickly after we were sort of diagnosed because that's really sort of the only path forward with anti-sperm antibodies other than like adoption or something like Surrogacy.

Kiona: 8:40

All of the details that go into that is phenomenal. So I'm happy that you guys made it to the other side, which means pregnancy and all of those things. So what was going through your mind the moment you guys realized that IVF stuck for you and you were pregnant?

Jeff: 8:58

Well, it's interesting that from that perspective, because most people discover they're pregnant, like all of a sudden like, hey, he you know, we've got a positive test. We know today and yesterday we didn't know. But because of IVF, the whole thing is built up with a very specific process. So we knew implantation day exactly when that took place. We knew the timing for when we should find out. And you have to know the way the process works is actually implant the embryo manually by a doctor, and then they wait to see if it sticks in the uterus, does it stay? And then once they confirm that's actually, you know, connected in their that's officially you're pregnant now So we knew that day was coming. And then when it did, then it's the waiting game of will it actually stay there or will there be a miscarriage, which is highly likely in IVF? Like that's a very strong possibility because it's not an authentic pregnancy in that sense. It's artificial. So we knew we were pregnant, but then we kept having to be like, Well, are we still pregnant? Is it still real? Like that kept coming up. So what do we tell people? Because I feel like I don't want to tell them because it may not work There's a lot of apprehension about are we pregnant yet? So it took a while.

Tessa: 10:01

I think the fertility clinic, you know, they deal with a lot of women who have a hard time getting pregnant. So there was never a point where they were like, congrats. It was just like, here's the next step. And then you come in for this appointment and then we'll follow up in two days and we'll follow up in two more days and then we'll see you in a week. I mean, it's just it's very matter of fact, it's definitely not like a touchy feely place to be. Everyone at the fertility clinic I thought was like, pretty sad.

Jeff: 10:23

It's a dark place to be because people are getting bad news every day there because they're told like your family you want isn't happening now. And that's it. That's so common. So again, you're in that waiting room. You can't be excited for yourself because you don't want to make someone else feel bad. So it's it's weird.

Tessa: 10:39

And you feel for the other women there knowing that like, you know, maybe like I've gotten this gift, but like other people here don't leave with the same. So it's it's, you know, exciting. But there's also sort of it's laced with like a little bit of bittersweet just knowing that, like there are so many other women struggling with the same thing and they they might not have gotten the news that we got.

Jeff: 10:56

And there are also two couples that walked in the waiting room while we were there over the months with that were people I knew, my friends that I did not know were having trouble. And still I see them in the waiting room. And then all of a sudden we have this thing in common. And we live in Nashville. It's a big town. There's no reason for them to be there. And yet here they are with us. And it just it felt like this happens to people and we're all going through the same thing

Tessa: 11:17

So I took a pregnancy, well. So they tell you like you're implanted on this day, like, do not take a pregnancy test. Come in. Like, I don't know, 15 or 18 days afterward and we'll do a blood test and we'll tell you. And I was like, okay, yeah. So, like, I don't know, day like 12, I was like, I'm taking a pregnancy test, so I'm in the bathroom. I'm like, taking this pregnancy test and there's, like, the faintest little line. And of course, I knew we had been implanted, like, things were for the most part, like, going well. And so I woke Jeff up, I'm like, look. And he was asleep. And so I showed him This pregnancy test was so faint, but he was like, It's fine. Like they said, it wouldn't show up yet anyway. And I'm like, No, there's a faint line. And he's like, okay, like, let's just wait until the appointment, like they said. So it was a little anticlimactic because we did have this long build up, but I still did a pregnancy test.

Kiona: 12:06

That was actually going to be a question that I asked because it's I've heard that it's quite common for people to skip on that role and to just take at home pregnancy tests before they're in office. Appointment.

Tessa: 12:16

Yeah, I definitely did that. And then when we went there, like, you're pregnant, I'm like, Mm hmm. Yeah, I've already taken like five test. Thanks.

Kiona: 12:24

I want to take a step back a little bit and talk about how having that experience with seeing your friends in that office, I had a similar experience because my husband and I went into a vasectomy clinic literally called Dr. Snips office. Right. And.

Jeff: 12:39

What the.

Kiona: 12:41

And so we go in there and we know that every single person that walks through that door is there for a vasectomy. It's not for, oh, like I have a wound on my arm. It's not like. A general hospital waiting room. So you go in and you have conversations with these people at the front desk and you're like, Should I be quiet about the fact I'm getting a vasectomy? And it's like, No, everybody's there for that reason. So yeah, that's relatable in that sense of everybody knows why you're in a fertility clinic waiting room and what that means. but the thing that's also adds a little bit more detail and depth to being in a fertility clinic waiting room is the things you've mentioned of you don't know who has that success story. You don't know who is still struggling. You don't know who has that positive. You don't know how many times that person has been there. So to see your friends and know that they're also trying like, did you go up to them in the waiting room and say, Hey man, how's it going? Or were you just letting them have their space?

Jeff: 13:45

Instantly, I was like, Oh my gosh, Hi, What's going on? Like, it was this because at least one of those friends I hadn't seen in ten years. And so I was really excited to see him again. And then the second friend was actually an old co-worker. And that was a little more awkward. But at the same time, it was like, we know we're here. We need to talk and like, had a face to face about it. And fortunately, both of those stories worked out well because they have kids themselves, at least I think they both have at least two kids. And so it was successful for them also. I know that after the fact. But at the time and, you know, in the moment of it was, we're here, it sucks. You're here. It sucks. But it was a good bonding experience from that. I'm in a way glad we had the experience because it made me feel at least like it's not just Tessa and I by ourselves on an island, like it's people we actually know in the same experience.

Kiona: 14:31

I think that's really important too, is having the community in a place that feels so isolated. Did you stay connected to that throughout your process and check in on them, or were you kind of just waiting to see?

Tessa: 14:44

I mean, they were acquaintances. So I mean, like kind of far removed acquaintances. But like when you saw the Facebook announcement, I was like, oh, that did work out for them, you know?

Kiona: 14:54

Yeah.

Jeff: 14:55

And they were public about it to talk about the IVF process. So it wasn't a secret, which was obviously for us. We announced to the whole world in a podcast as well. So it was very public

Tessa: 15:03

But after the facts, lik before you have the baby, it's like, Oh, I don't really want to talk about this. But then after you do and it works, you're like, We did IVF.

Jeff: 15:12

Thats right.

Kiona: 15:13

Yeah, that's a good point. You know, just being able to kind of have that silent acknowledgement of, aww, it worked. That's great. So let's go ahead and dive into the nitty gritty of your first pregnancy. Did you experience any hardcore symptoms or what were the thoughts going through your head with what you expected your pregnancy to turn out to be?

Tessa: 15:35

I hadn't really thought about it a whole lot, like the amount of time we had spent trying to get pregnant. I hadn't thought a lot about what it would be to actually be pregnant. I think I wouldn't really sort of let my mind go there in case that was like a party I was never going to get invited to. And so I was a little like, thrown off. I remember I didn't buy maternity clothes for a really long time. Like, I think I was in like the fourth or fifth month. And then I was like, I should probably like, just stop trying to squeeze into like my stretchy pants. But I was in such denial that this was actually going to work, even though we had no reason to think that it wouldn't work. But I think because we had spent so much time in this fertility clinic and there are a lot of people who have other types of infertility so they can't carry the baby or the pregnancies don't come to term. So I think it was a really long time where I was like, Am I like, Are we really doing this for much longer with the first pregnancy? For sure. Than the second.

Kiona: 16:29

Jeff, what was going through your mind? throughout the pregnancy.

Jeff: 16:32

So I've discussed this also in my podcast. I started getting panic attacks around the same season starting during IVF and then built up during the pregnancy and I ended up this was like after the pregnancy, after the delivery, eight months later, I had back surgery, which I stem from the stress and panic attacks I had previously. I think it's all connected. I have no proof of that. But long story short for me was that I had a lot on my mind with it. I wasn't physically pregnant, but I was like emotionally financially, you know, personal invested in so much of this. I mean, one of our very first appointments for IVF, I almost passed out in the office and the nurse had to like, calm me down like Tessa was fine. I was the one, like, losing it. I don't like hospitals in general, so having to go back to these places again and again, it was just it was really uncomfortable for me for a long time. And so being pregnant was just fear inducing. Honestly, I didn't know what I'd be like as a dad. I didn't know if I would be a good dad or a bad one or if I could pull it off. And, looking back at it now, things have all been fine. I mean, hard, but fine. And it was unnecessary for me to go through all that nonsense at the same time. That was what I felt. So it just I experienced my experience.

Tessa: 17:42

I think also like when I found out that I was pregnant, I was reading all the books, like I had read every book about pregnancy, everything about like just anything. Whereas I don't think Jeff had done that. And so, like, I was in a much more like, Zen happy place, like I'm having a baby and like, this is going so great and even like, morning sickness or like, aches and pains, it's like I had heard women like previously my life be like, Oh, I'm so sick. And I'm like, I want to be sick. Like, I want to have morning sickness, you know? Like, I was like, really, li, excited to be pregnant. And I was just consuming so much content. I felt like I was really increasing my knowledge base. Whereas Jeff was like, thinking about our family finances and thinking about our, you know, lifestyle and how that's going to change. And there's not quite as much of like a road map, I don't think, for dads in that way. A lot of the content is really created for moms. So even if he wanted to read a book, it's just not really meant they're not written for dads for the most part.

Kiona: 18:39

Yeah, I agree with that in saying that the resources are abundant for the birthing person. Like when you're there and you're trying to learn something like how can I expect my body to feel? What can I expect as symptoms? there's a limited amount of resources that are out there for dads and partners because they're not the ones experiencing the physical aspect of carrying a child, you know? So everybody that's listening to this needs to create things for dads and parents and Partners, please.

Jeff: 19:11

It's usually a footnote in the book. It's like the entire thing is for the Mom and there's like a paragraph at the end for the partner. It was just like, Good luck. Bye. Like.

Kiona: 19:21

High five. Good job. You did it.

Jeff: 19:22

Right.

Kiona: 19:24

I think that, more content definitely needs to be created for partners. I am going to give a shout out to a podcast that I'm not connected to at all called The Dad Edge Podcast. It's actually a really amazing podcast for dads and it talks about everything and my husband listens to it and he constantly sends me episodes. He's like, Oh, this is cool. And it's from a male perspective. And I'm like, That's awesome. I'm down to listen to it. So it's really cool. speaking of content and creating, did you guys get any books that were related to supporting a birthing person like The Birth Partner? I know that in your episodes, you had mentioned Ina May's Guide to Natural childbirth. talk to me about how you utilize those resources.

Tessa: 20:03

Yeah, I was all about Ina May when I found out about her work, and I was like, I need to read everything. And being sort of the nerdy academic that I am, I'm like, I need to read primary documents. Like, I don't want books written by other people about her, like, I want to read from her own words. And so I was doing all this research and that book really made an impact on me. you know, I knew that I wanted to do like a natural birth, but at the time I didn't even really know, like what? That, like, I didn't have the language for that. I just knew, like, I don't like hospitals and I don't like medication, especially coming out of IVF, like for the, for the few months or maybe month before your implantation. And then three months after that, you're on heavy hormonal drugs, lots of injections, lots of painful stuff. And so at that point, like maybe three or four months into my pregnancy, I was like, I don't want to be in a hospital. I I don't want to have any of this medical stuff. I just want to do this by myself. And As you know, that's very countercultural and Ina May's books really showed me that, like many women, have had natural childbirths and like, that really changed. I think my paradigm for like what it meant to, like, give birth. An it was around that time also that we decided to switch our health care provider, if you will. I don't know if you want to get into that now or later, but I think that book was like very, meaningful to me. Do you want to tell any of this stuff?

Jeff: 21:28

Well, I mean, the IVF process to get get the implantation requires all these estrogen shots that are daily, that are just kind of they're painful to go through. I was the one giving them to Tessa every day for months. And it's a it's a brutal process. And so, you know, months into this, she was burned out on all of that experience. And I was tired of going to the doctor all the time with her. Like the whole process was just like, we're tired of being in hospitals and we want to like, take control of this and like, have our own vision of a pregnancy and a birth. And so that's when we really leaned into like, Is there a company out there that has less of a hospital experience? And we found this company in Nashville that as far as we know, it's a good place. It's attached to a hospital, but it's designed for natural births. And so you have access to, you know, a more natural experience. But if you need a hospital, there's one literally across the street. And so that's where we started. And that didn't work. We were like instantly, like, this is still too medical. It's still not our vibe. Like we're missing something. And so when Ina May's book showed up, it was well. There's a beautiful picture being painted here for something we've never experienced or had no knowledge of, but it sounds so blissful, like, Let's go that direction. So for us, that was when we just, like, really leaned into would a natural birth be for us.

Tessa: 22:45

So then I'm reading the book and I get to the end and I'm like, Wait, this place that she is writing about is near us. We're like an hour and a half away from this farm like sanctuary that she has talked about. And I was like, Wow. Like, I think maybe we should give this a try. And then I also in the back of her book, there's a lot of statistics about like the sort of success rates at the farm. And I was really sort of blown away by the number of, successful births they had at the farm compared to like the hospitals that we were close to. And the statistics there really sort of proved to me that, like, this place is worth looking into. So it took a little bit of conversation, but I was like, We should do this. And Jeff is like, What are you talking about? Like, that is an hour and a half away. It's not really that close.

Jeff: 23:33

It wasn't even that. It was also like, Are we going to become hippies now? Because that's they were opted into and like I bet a vegan for a while as I was like, I'm already on this like a more countercultural path. I guess my diet. But this is like pretty hardcore to like live in the woods for a while, to give birth without doctors and hospitals. So I was like, Are we going to like, wear tie dye and do this thing we did? By the way, it was great, but like it was not something that I was like I had to like mentally shift to go that direction

Kiona: 24:02

let's actually just dive right into that. tell me about the day. It took place in like how long you're supposed to stay there because it's an hour and a half away. So from what I remember, the farm has like these little cabins that you kind of like, quote unquote, like rent out for your your birthing time. And then you stay until you have the baby and then you leave afterwards. So tell me all the details that that you're willing to give.

Tessa: 24:27

Yeah, it's lovely. I mean, it is like that. It's a little cabin in the woods. What you're supposed to do is go, like, pretty far in advance of your birth, your birthing time,and stay so that when you have your birth, you're there and you're sort of Zen and it's very mellow. Well, we you know, we were both working full time and I was like, okay, like, let's just see how things go. And like, as we get closer to the due date, like if we want to go like the day before or something like that, like fine.

Jeff: 24:54

No, I think we had planned to go in as much as we could, like a week before the due date. I think that was my plan on my calendar was I'll give it like, you know, a few days ahead of time if we can squeeze that in. But we were pretty confident on what the due date was going to be so we could time it. Well for that. That was that was the plan going into it.

Tessa: 25:12

It didn't really work out like that.

Jeff: 25:14

It didn't work that way.

Kiona: 25:15

So how did it work out? Tell me everything.

Jeff: 25:19

You might want to back the story up and go back to hypno babies, because I think that's a good precursor to how this part went down. So Tessa might take that one.

WWTL Ad Read: 25:35

Have you ever avoided eating your favorite snack in front of your kids because you didn't want to have to share it? Now imagine the moment when your kids are occupied and you're in the kitchen alone. So you just go for it knowing that you have to finish it because you never know when that moment is going to come again. That is how I feel when I listen to the what was that like podcast. All of the stories are so good. Like when Karen gave birth in a Subaru or when Danny found a baby in the subway. And I can't even imagine what it would be like to survive getting stabbed 27 times. Like, Jane, it's these kinds of stories that are being told directly from the person who experience them that make this podcast binge worthy. Some of the stories even include the Raw 911 call audio from the day The Unreal Situation took place. I personally subscribed so fast because there's even stories about animal attacks, survi mass shootings and more. What was that like? Can be found in all podcast apps, including Spotify or at whatwasthatlike.

Tessa: 26:54

So first we decided that we're going to have a natural birth. It's going to be in the woods. You know, our family's already thinking we're a little crazy. And then I decided that I would like to do a hypnobirthing class, which is where you, like, learn how to put yourself into a state of, like, self-hypnosis to help manage, the pressure and stress and anxiety and fear of childbirth. And so it was like a six week course, I think. And you really just like, learn how to, put yourself in hypnosis and your birthing partner has a role and they help like give you key words to help you sort of get into this. So again, I was doing I was practicing daily. And so I was, of course, like a very like calm because I was like hypnotized every day and in like a state of like utter relaxation. So I knew that when my birthing time came, I was going to, like, go into my hypnotic state and sort of like, stay there and like, let my body do the work. But we were at home. I was making myself like a freezer meal, like, you know, food to eat now and then, food to also freeze. And this was maybe, I don't know, three weeks before the due date.

Jeff: 27:57

Two and a half weeks of.

Tessa: 27:59

Two and a half weeks.I'm carrying the food to the table. It's looking really yummy. And I was like, Oh, my water just broke. And he was like, What? I was like, Yeah, it did. And then we were like, Oh, this is going to happen like, much sooner than we thought. And we need to, like, get to the farm. But i a pretty rustic place and there's a long list of things you're supposed to bring with you. We hadn't quite gotten all the things, so I was like, Jeff, you got to go to the grocery store and like, get the thing.

Jeff: 28:26

Well, Tessa had packed her pack to go bag to go to the farm that was prepared like a month in advance. And so she was ready with a lot of stuff. But there was like last minute things you need because you're going to live on a farm, you know, for a couple of weeks. You need food, you need supplies. It's a lot like camping and like you need to prepare your stuff. And we hadn't packed hardly any of that stuff that we really needed. Like the essentials we had, but not the rest. And so I had to scramble, go to the grocery store, buy all this stuff. I'm like running through the store, panicking about fighting these things, like yelling employees, like, I need this stuff, bring it to me. And then we, you know, came back home and she was in the process of labor at this point. And like, well, we have to drive an hour and a half now that she's actively about to deliver a baby. Can we get there? I don't know. It's like my panic was just like a top notch. I was freaking out and I had to drive. It was it was late. Is probably 10 p.m. when we left. So it's pitch black outside, dark and middle of summer and we had to drive in the middle of woods

Tessa: 29:23

And I'm no help because I'm like.

Jeff: 29:26

She has headphones on when doing her breathing and she's just like chilling out in the passenger seat. And I'm trying not to hit deer and other cars on the road as I'm flying through and yeah, it was that part was it was pretty crazy. But then we get to the cabin, you know, an hour and a half later and Tesla goes into the bathroom and within 20 minutes we had a baby. So we just made it

Kiona: 29:50

So I feel like you skipped so many juicy details.

Jeff: 29:55

I did. Theres a lot.

Tessa: 29:56

It all happened so fast

Kiona: 29:58

It all happened so fast. So one question I have is how long were you doing the Hypnobirthing training prior to the big day?

Tessa: 30:07

Sp, the course. You know, they only start like, don't know, at the beginning of every month or something like that. So we had done one. So I had done the full course and then it was on sort of like what they call a maintenance plan. So like you're still practicing, but like you basically have all the skills I knew all the stuff. I was just sort of like practicing it. I wasn't expecting to go into labor so early, but the class formally was over and I was just sort of like keeping that skill like at the ready.

Kiona: 30:33

Okay. So you had six plus weeks of practice

Tessa: 30:37

Yeah.

Kiona: 30:37

for this moment. Okay, so you're hypnobirthing in the car. Jeff is panicking and freaking out. and the you get

Tessa: 30:43

Yep.

Kiona: 30:43

to the farm. She goes to the bathroom. Jeff, what are you doing when she's in the bathroom?

Jeff: 30:48

So I was unpacking all of our stuff, you know.

Tessa: 30:51

Well, you can talk to the midwife, too.

Jeff: 30:52

Well, I had called the midwife on the way there and told her we were coming and sure that that's fine. She lives on the farm. She's like, Just come to the cabin and let me know in a few hours. You know how things are going. And she's expecting Tessa to be in labour for seven, 8 hours, maybe more. So she's very chill.

Tessa: 31:08

She said, try to get some sleep.

Jeff: 31:09

Yeah. Do you want us to sleep overnight in the cabin? And our midwife, by the way, has been living on the farm for 50 years. She's delivered over a thousand babies. She is the most chill human being you've ever met. And so she was like, Okay, fine. Just just go hang out in the cabin. We'll see you in a bit. Like, okay, I know my voice. It's just like a really high strung. Like, okay, fine. Great, great, great. Unpack all of our stuff. And I'm in the middle of unpacking when Tessa starts screaming at me. Or, not screaming. But she yells my name from the bathroom, and I come in and I see her over the toilet with a head popped out of her. I'm like, That shouldn't be there. Or maybe it should. Here comes the baby.

Kiona: 31:48

So in that moment, what is going through your head? Okay, first, okay, we have to do this individually. Tessa, what is going through your head when you are at the farm? Not worried about what's going on because you're in hypno mode. And you go to the bathroom and you realize that you're about to have your baby.

Tessa: 32:08

Yeah, I. Well, Jeff had come in and said, like, how far apart are your contractions? And I was like, and, you know, I was in this. I don't know how much, you know, about the hypnosis thing, but I was like, in it and so I wasn't really wanting people to, like, talk to me a whole lot or touch me or anything. So he was like, You need to time your your contractions. And I was like, Huh, I'll think about that. But I couldn't really tell, like when they were starting and when they were stopping, like it just kind of felt like a big long thing. And then I was like, Wait, I feel like the feeling of, like the hand coming. And I was like, Surely that's not correct, because this whole labor thing is supposed to be really long and challenging and painful, and I should be screaming and sweating and crying. And I wasn't. I mean, I was really like the hypno baby thing was just really working for me. And so I was actually pretty surprised when Macy came out because I was like, Oh, was that all? Like I, I had prepped to, like, be there for a lot longer and I was yeah, I was just like, I mean, you can see the shock on my face and some of those like very first pictures. I was like, Wow, that baby just came out of here. Like, I'm feeling I mean, of course, I'm sure there were like, it wasn't the best feeling in the world, but I was definitely like, I still had energy and I just was very kind of surprised that it all went so quickly.

Kiona: 33:26

Yeah. And then, Jeff, what about you? Like, once you heard your name get screamed and you saw Maisie's head between Tessa's legs.

Jeff: 33:35

So I just been on the phone with the midwife and I was basically, you know, telling her like contractions are a few minutes apart maybe, I'm guessing, on Tessa's answers, which were kind of vague. And so the midwife said, okay, I'll try and be there in an hour just to check on her. But I don't think this is a rush. And so I just. Okay, I'll just hang out. No big deal. Then I hear my name get called. I walk in. Here's a head. And I just, like, I kind of froze. Like it's happening now. Okay, Okay. This is it. And I run over to her, and I put my hand under her, and I catch her immediately. She right there is delivered, and I'm holding her over the toilet with this baby. I'm like, Well, here she is. And then in this moment, Tessa,for whatever reason, whips out her phone, takes a selfie over her shoulder of me holding the baby. Like in this moment, she's just delivered her first baby and has the, you know, the brain cells.

Tessa: 34:24

I had my phone right there because I was listening to these hypnosis tracks.

Jeff: 34:27

Yeah.

Tessa: 34:28

And so I was like, Oh, I want to get this picture of him catching her.

Kiona: 34:33

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Tessa: 34:37

And so we're standing like that. A then the midwife comes in with her little bag. She's

Jeff: 34:41

No,

Tessa: 34:41

like, Oh.

Jeff: 34:41

he stood there for a while. The thing is, is that she's still attached to the cord.And so I'm like, holding her under. And then I'm like, Well, we have to something like not drop her, but like Tessa's got to sit down somehow with, like, wiggle Maisie under Tessa's legs to get her to sit and then get a towel and. But at this point, we're still like. And then at this point, I call the midwife.I'm like, okay, she's here, so you're late. Please come now. I need someone.

Kiona: 35:05

Yeah.

Jeff: 35:05

Yeah.

Kiona: 35:06

So I'm just trying to think of what's going through your head, Jeff, because this did not sound like it was planned for you to catch her.

Jeff: 35:15

No.

Kiona: 35:15

You're dealing with this slimy, slippery baby. All

Jeff: 35:19

Yes.

Kiona: 35:19

of this bathroom stuff while trying to deal with whatever is happening still flowing out of Tessa? Probably. So what's going through your head? Like, when did you have that grounding moment, I should say, of like, holy crap, I have my daughter in my hands.

Jeff: 35:36

I think the weird part was that I knew because number one, she was very slippery. It was very hard to hold her. And I was actually going to lean over the edge of the seat counter. And so I didn't have my balance very well. And so this whole time I'm like, I'm in this really precarious position of holding this baby. I do not want to drop. And Tessa is in a fragile state, I assume, like I knew in that moment like this is a really important moment. I don't want to mess this up and somehow, you know, calm things down, allow Tessa to hold her, and we can then regroup. So it was. It hit me really immediately, like this is this is real. And it's really bizarre because I thought I would do the fatherly thing of cutting the cord at the end, which I did, but I did not realize how involved I would be with the the birth itself.

Kiona: 36:19

Yeah. Oh, man. So what happened immediately? Post-partum. When the midwife came in, like, what was her energy like? It doesn't sound like she was in a panic state,

Tessa: 36:30

She was so she was so chill. She came in with a little bag and she was like, Oh, I need different supplies. And so she went out and like, got, I don't know, post-partum supplies and she moved me to the bed. She did an assessment, and I think she delivered the placenta and then realized I was still bleeding a bit. And so she gave me a shot of something. Yes, in the leg. But of course, I was like, on this high, so I, like, barely noticed that. And she was just very, very calm and like this, You know, we do this all the time. Like this is old hat, you know, wrap the baby up and gave her to me. And it was lovely. She was such a calming, like vibe.

Jeff: 37:11

Which we both needed, or at least I needed. And that sense of we have this brand new experience. And yet here's someone with, you know, decades of experience is telling us everything's fine. And so I trusted her and things there were great.

Kiona: 37:24

Yeah. And it sounds like she just came and had that reassuring tone of like, All right, here we are.

Tessa: 37:30

Yeah.

Kiona: 37:31

one question that just came to mind is at any point, were you guys upset that she didn't make it there?

Jeff: 37:37

In terms of the midwife being there for the birth, you mean?

Kiona: 37:39

Mm.

Jeff: 37:41

Yes and no. I knew she literally lived in a house that was 5 minutes from our cabin. And so I really didn't care that much because the farm has multiple midwives on staff in this facility. It wasn't like we were alone. But it was this sense of we drove there in the middle of the night and we're in this dark place. It's brand new to us. And we have a newborn baby that's still attached to Tessa by the cord. I'm holding it. And she's bloody and messy and I'm like, This is a weird moment. I need someone to come pull us out of this. You' like, There is that kind of feeling. But she was there within a few minutes, so it wasn't a big deal.

Tessa: 38:15

And I think that I and this is true for both my pregnancy all talk about that other one later, I'm sure. But I think I really wanted to do it by myself, like I wanted to do as much as possible by myself. I had heard like, leave her home as long as possible. So I was not even like really in a hurry to get in the car. And Jeff's like, you're like, pretty far into labor. Like, we need to go. And was very confident that my body would do what it needed to do, and I didn't want anybody, like I said, like touching me or asking me questions or like taking data on me or like, checking for like I wanted to do it all by myself and stay in my little hypnotic zone. And so I, I mean, I know it was not Jeff's cup of tea, but I, I was happy that I was able to sort of do it with like, just the two of us. Three of us,I guess.

Kiona: 39:01

Yeah, definitely the three of you. little baby plays a role, too. I think that's so amazing. So in your immediate postpartum time after the midwife leaves, tell me what's going through your heads and what's happening next do you breastfeed? tell me more.

Tessa: 39:15

So I knew I was going to breastfeed. I had read all the books about breastfeeding and it was very painful for me. Like, I have pictures of me just like running my hands down, my face, being like, this is so, painful. And I was really hoping for it to be this, like, wonderful, blissful moment where, like, the mother brings the child to her breast and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And like, that never really happened for me throughout my breastfeeding journey. So those first few days, especially were hard because I was like, this is not going as I wanted it to.But being in the little cabin that we were in, I thought was like, really cute. And we didn't have cable TV. We were off of social media. Like, I would have been happy to stay there for, like, months.

Jeff: 39:56

It's totally off grid. There's no cell service. There's nothing. You're in. You're in the woods. Which was. Yeah, in a sense, it was a very, very cool place just to have a few days to just hang out and be with the baby.

Tessa: 40:07

And our parents did come and sort of rotated in and out. So they didn't stay for like with us or for a super long time. But we got to see family and, were connected that way. But it was you know, it was just sleep and trying to breastfeed. And I was a little like, this isn't going how I wanted it to go. And the midwife was like, It's hard for people sometimes. Like, this is pretty typical.

Kiona: 40:28

Hmm. Did the midwife offer you any resources or guidance or lactation support in order to make it a little bit less painful for you?

Tessa: 40:35

She did. She tried. She also I started pumping when I was there because I felt this need to like. I don't know, like my baby's not like latching and getting like I need to start pumping this milk. An she was like, You don't need to do that. your milk hasn't even come in yet. the pump is like, n making you happy. just lay off that for a little while. And I don't think I really heeded her advice as much as I would have in hindsight. But, she knows a lot about lactation as well. So she she did a little bit of sort of training on that. And she's like, this is actually like not going as poorly as you think it is. But she's like the latch just like doesn't seem quite right. And I think she's the one who assessed Maisie for tongue and lip ties the first time and was like, You should maybe have someone check into that. Which we followed up with once we got back on the grid.

Kiona: 41:21

And so with being off the grid without cell service and everything. Did your midwife talk to you during the prenatal time about what it would look like in case of an emergency? Did they talk about that at all?

Jeff: 41:32

Yeah, there's a hospital probably 25 minutes away from the farm, which we drove by on the way to the farm, and I was considering stopping there, but we passed by two hospitals, actually. And both times I was like, Do I turn? Do I go to the farm like I was? Yeah, that was a lot of concern on my end. But yeah, they have a hospital nearby that they use. I think the data said it was like less than 2% of the birds in the farm utilise the hospital at all, and so we didn't expect to have to use them and we didn't. And it was I think I felt comfortable knowing that the people at the farm are experienced and then, you know, worst case scenario, we've got a try minute drive, so we're good.

Tessa: 42:09

Which is not that different from where we are. We live in a suburb here in Nashville, so the nearest hospital to us is probably like, what, 20 minutes?

Jeff: 42:16

It's the same as probably half an hour to get to a hospital from our house now.

Tessa: 42:20

That part, I think, also made us feel like, well, it's about the same.

Kiona: 42:24

Yeah, just that extra reassurance, you know, that you were making a good decision.

Jeff: 42:28

Yeah.

Kiona: 42:29

Yeah.So how was the the postpartum time for the first few months when it came to your emotions and fluctuating, getting back to home life, back on the grid.

Tessa: 42:40

I was a real mess with my first pregnancy. I did not sleep much and the breastfeeding wasn't going well we went to see like a few different people to get different support and then, just going to lots of appointments. At some point I was like, look, I'm I'm just not going to do this anymore. And just sort of went with the semi painful breastfeeding for the rest of it. I think I really kind of over programmed myself those first couple months and I had been like dreaming of having a baby. And so I wanted to do all these things, you know, it's like I wanted to like, make cute photos and like, take her on stroller and all this stuff that I had been wanting to do. I sort of went through my bucket list in those first like three or four months, which I think in hindsight, like it it overstress me. I should've just like stayed in bed more as my midwife told me to do.

Kiona: 43:25

Yeah. And I think, you know, that brings up the emotions of how hard you were trying in the first place to have a baby. And then you're like, She's here. Let's do all the things before time. As time runs out, you. So I understand that for sure. at what point did you both decide that it was time to try for another?

Jeff: 43:46

That took a while, I think in large part because we wanted to be very ready for another one. I think because the first few months after, after the birth was were hard and learning how to deal with daycare and feeding the baby and diapers and like there was the whole like being new parents is a lot to take on for one kid. And so to bring in a second, we want to make sure, like number one is like systematized and we've got a plan and we're good. So you feel comfortable, you know, doubling in the challenge if that's what ended up doing. And so it took, I don't know, two and a half years for us to pull the trigger on that because we really wanted to be sure we were ready.

Tessa: 44:26

There was a direct timeline between when we finished potty training, like our first one, it's like, Oh, she can feed herself, she can clothe herself, she can toilet herself. I'm like, What are we going to do with our time now? And I was like. You wouldn't have another baby.

Jeff: 44:39

But is also a big choice too, because we had to repeat a decent chunk of the IVF process to do it. And so for me, by the end of the delivery of Maisie, our first, you know, first born, we had already been through a couple of years of IVF and pregnancy and it was we were already tired at this point that we already had this sense of like we've been through a lot and now we have a baby to take care of. And now that's a lot by itself. And so after two years of that, it was okay. We've had four years of a lot of this. And I felt like,just do we want to do more? Like, is that we have enough in the tank to say, let's continue this sign on again to more IVF, more of the, you know, whole process of pregnancy and delivery and a newborn. And it's a lot to say. Yes to if you've been through a lot already.

Kiona: 45:24

Yeah, absolutely. Because that was actually going to be a question of mine of like what was similar in the process from the first time of going through the IVF for conception and the second. Like, did you have to do everything over again, basically, or did you kind of get to meet in the middle and then move forward?

Tessa: 45:41

There's a part of the IVF where they're getting your body to like, make eggs and then they harvest all these eggs. So that's like a big piece. And we actually did that twice with the first time. And so with the second one, we can sort of pick up at that point where they just like defrost the egg and implant it. So there wasn't as much sort of a lead up to the IVF. The second time. So I was 35 at the time. And we are using frozen eggs from when I was 32. So it's sort of the same batch that we had gotten the first time. We so we didn't have to do quite as much of it. And we already knew, you know, what it was. I knew how the process was going to go. We knew the clinic. It's very like you just follow this path and it should work. And since we had had success the first time, it was, I think, a lot easier. I also knew that I wanted to do natural birth, like I had my own ideas of like, you know, what's going to be similar. And so that was helpful.

Kiona: 46:39

I think that's a good point is. B through at one time gives you a really good roadmap to what you can expect it to look like. The second, at least at least a little bit, right. There's of course, regardless if it's IVF or natural conception, nothing is ever exactly the same. The pregnancy is different, the birth is different and everything like that. So tell me about the details of your second pregnancy and how it differed from your first.

Tessa: 47:06

I think as any second time mom will tell you, like having a toddler while you're pregnant is different. You don't get to rest as much. You're much more on the go. But I. I embraced it a lot more early on. I also shared a lot more of my journey with our, like, family members. You know, we've got cousins and things that are like sisters to me. And I think I brought them on board a lot earlier. With the second one, I wore maternity like I was physically comfortable a lot earlier and all that fear and uncertainty wasn't as present. It was still there, but it wasn't as present. I went to the A lot more the appointments by myself, you know, I didn't I sort of was like, Yeah, I know how this goes and it's going to work out this time to.

Kiona: 47:49

Mm hmm. And then one of the biggest differences just time wise, was that COVID was happening the second time, right? How did that impact how things were going on?

Jeff: 48:02

yeah, that was part of the decision making was are we going to bring a baby into this world. This world is very different now than it was the first time around. And it was complicated in the sense that we had to figure out like, are the hospitals allowing patients in? Can you have both parents come in at once? There's just one allowed and there was some of that was a little bit goofy to navigate, but technically everything was still available. We could still go through the whole process. And like she was saying before, there's less of US involvement because we had eight, I think, embryos that had gone through the full cycles we collected, I think it was 16 or 17 eggs originally. And then, you know, not all of those survived the process of genetic testing. And you're trying to find the, you know, most fertilized healthy embryos to work with. And then from that, we could just, implant the ones we wanted. And so the second time around, we just were pulling from that batch and making that process easier. And so it was COVID wasn't really an issue because we were able to just, you know, sho that that, you know, t time span, bring in the embryo, get it implanted, start the process. And most of that's done at home. You know, the all the the testing is done in the office but the all the injections, all the drugs you're taking are generally at home. And so it's just a matter of getting through the pregnancy yourself, you know, on your own.

Kiona: 49:16

How did going through this pregnancy and everything during COVID determine where you decided to birth? And did you consider doing the farm again or not? And why

Tessa: 49:28

Covid didn't really impact us a whole lot in that like pregnancy part leading up to it. We were like, Should we go to the farm or should I just like have a midwife and do it at home? Those are sort of my only two options. especially with Covid I knew I didn't want to be in a hospital setting or even like a medical setting if I can help it.

Jeff: 49:44

They didn't allow both parents in at the time anyway. So if we're going to have a hospital birth, it would just be Tessa. I wasn't allowed to go and so we already knew like we want to avoid the hospital all costs because of these restrictions.

Tessa: 49:57

And I was like, Do you want to go back to the farm? And he was like, Um.

Jeff: 50:01

Yeah. I rejected the farm the second time. Not because I don't love the farm, but because I knew how quick she delivered. And like, there's no way I got to drive an hour and a half and then have her deliver a baby in my car on the way there. Like, that's not in my in my plan. We've had enough surprises. I want to avoid that if I can.

Tessa: 50:18

And having a three year old here. I was like, well, you know, if it's in the middle of the night or something, we have more options for taking care of Maisie. If we stay here. So we decided to do that and get a midwife and plan for homebirth.

Kiona: 50:34

Aweseome. So, during this pregnancy, did you decide to revamp your hypnobirthing or did you kind of just remember what you were doing your previous pregnancy?

Tessa: 50:45

Yes, I knew I wanted to do Hypnobirthing again, and I just sort of pulled out the materials and like walked myself through the process. A big piece of it is like you really have to practice. Like if I wanted to put myself into hypnotic trance right now, like, I can do it a little bit, but not as in-depth as you really want to be when your birthing time comes. And so I maybe for like five or six weeks up to the, due date, I was like practicing and doing this at home. And that also just helps the end of the pregnancy be a lot more relaxed. So I kind of, pulled it back out and just did a like a home study kind of. But it is a skill that like since I have done it successfully before I was able to get back into it pretty easily.But I wanted to make sure that like the moment I say, like I need my body to relax, I will be able to do that. And so I was definitely practicing leading up to this one.

Kiona: 51:35

So let's just dive right in to the moment it happened. you are pregnant. You get through your pregnancy all as well, and then your body's like, Oh, we're having a baby. What happens?

Tessa: 51:46

Yeah. So I woke up in the middle of the night, as you do, to go to the bathroom. Well, first I was fully expecting this baby to come two or three weeks early. And like, t didn't happen. So I'm like, waiting and I'm ready. And like, you know, toward the end of your pregnancy, you kind of uncomfortable. Some like, I would like this baby to come out of here. An so I actually did a hypnosis track like the day before my due date, which they tell you, like, do not do this track until your due date has come and gone. But the track is like, get this baby out for like, I'm giving my body permission and the baby to, like, come out. And so I did that one a day early and then within 24 hours I was in labor again. So I don't know if it worked or if I just because my due date was right there, but I had done that the night before, so I was like, I'm ready. And then, I don't

know, m like 3: 52:29

00 or 330 or something. I woke up to the bathroom and I was like, Oh, I think the water has broken, but I wasn't sure. And so I just kind of like hung around in the house in the middle of the night. And I was like, Oh yeah, am I getting ready to go into labor? I think it's like my hypnosis tracks out. I'm like doing some of the early ones and I was wanting to wait and wake Jeff up at five because he's like 5AM Miracle. And I was like, I want him to get a good night's sleep because today is the day then like, at least one of us will have slept. But I think at like 445 or something, I didn't quite make it to five. I was like, So welcome up and like, it's time is like, time for what? I'm like, It's time. And he was like, Wh are you talking about? I was like, I'm having a baby. and then I just went into my little zone as as I do. Maisie slept the whole time I was a bathroom. He's asking me, like, should I call the midwife? And I'm like, Don't call her yet. Like, I want to labor here as long as possible without the midwife. And he's like, okay, well, how far apart of your contractions? And I'm like,I don't know. Don't call the midwife. And he's like, I'm calling the midwife. And you were, like, checking on me.

Jeff: 53:33

Yeah. So at this point, I was checking on her because I was convinced there's going to be another fast delivery. I just had no reason to believe otherwise. So I call the midwife and she gave me the same kind of speech of like this will probably take longer than you think. I'm not in a hurry to get there, but I'll start packing my bags just in case. And then I called her back 10 minutes later. I'm like, W, there's a baby here, so you might want to come now. It was one of those. Just another super fast experience on this one, though. When the baby was delivered, I was making a coffee in the kitchen and Tessa was in our bedroom in the bathroom of our master bedroom. And I hear her once again yell my name. And I'm thinking, Oh, no, I think I just missed it. I rushed in with my coffee and I see Tessa holding our baby in her arms, like, well, there we go.

Kiona: 54:17

There's that. So, Tessa, you got to give me the details of what's going on in your head when you realize, Oh, baby's coming and now baby's here

Tessa: 54:28

Yeah, I was like at one point I like I was sweating and I was like, Wait, I remember sweating like last time and I was like, Oh, that was like right near the end. I'm like, maybe I'm like, toward the end of this. And, you know, when you're in the hypnotic state, you're really not trying to, like, thin ahead and just is like, right now, like I'm riding this wave and then the wave crests. You know, it's very in the moment. And so I didn't really let myself linger on that a whole lot. But then I was like, Oh, this baby's coming, like right now. And she just came out and I was kind of like stage yelling because I didn't want to wake Maisie up. So I was like, Jeff. And I don't know, like why I thought I needed to be super quiet because she's going to wake up eventually. I had I think he was like, I'll go get some coffee. Like, you'll be fine. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, like, I'm sure it's not going to be anytime soon. And then it was like minutes away.

Kiona: 55:17

That so I'm just so in awe because you're so aware of what's going on in your body. Just but in a hypnosis mindset, You're. Embracing what's happening. Staying in a calm state and just going for it and literally taking it one breath at a time.

Tessa: 55:39

Yeah.

Kiona: 55:40

then you're like, Oh, I have a baby. This is great That's the dream. Thats the dream that people want. They want to be like, Oh, look at this. I just sneezed a baby out,you know?

Tessa: 55:51

Yeah. Yeah. The way that I did the hypnosis thing is, I was a bit, like, disassociated from my body. Like, I wasn't trying to pay attention to, like, every single little feel. Like I think I probably could have been a little bit more aware of, lik, where I was in the process if I was like, Oh, there's a there's a feeling that's different or like, Oh, my body is pushing and I'm not really doing that. But I was just sort of almost like kind of staying distant from my body and just like really focusing on my breath and, and being relaxed and just letting my body do what it was made to do. And again, I was very confident that it would. And so I think that's partly why, again, I was a bit surprised because I wasn't really paying attention to like I was trying not to pay too much attention to like pressure and and things like that.

Kiona: 56:34

Yeah. And so thinking about the time that you said you woke up around 330 ish and it was just before 5:00 when Jeff went downstairs to make his coffee. So this is a precipitous birth, this birth as fast.

Jeff: 56:50

It took 2 hours tops from the time that she woke up to go pee to the time the baby came was 2 hours.

Kiona: 56:57

That's fast.

Jeff: 56:59

Yeah.

Kiona: 57:01

how did your body feel afterwards, like after you were out of hypnosis? Because your body went through a lot of changes in a very short amount of time. So, how was. That for you.

Tessa: 57:11

I felt good. I mean, in that like 330 to 5, I, like, put on some makeup and I was like, okay, like, we're going to take some pictures later today and I felt I felt really good. I remember Jeff's cousin saying, you know, if you ever have birth again and you're bleeding, like you should lay down or sit down, at least instead of just standing there. And I was like, okay, we should lay down like Diana is that we should lay down. So I did move to the bed and Jeff wrapped me up and kept me warm. And when the midwife came in, you know, she sort of looked around and was like, Oh, yeah, you look great. Everything's everything's going well. This baby had a much bigger head than my first one, so I felt a bit it wasn't like a lot of pain, but more just like, I don't know what's going on down there but I was again very happy that it was so short and happy that I had been in the house and that I had kind of done it by myself.

Kiona: 57:56

kind of makes sense that the head's a little bit bigger because they were baking for two and a half more weeks than that first one so.

Tessa: 58:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Kiona: 58:03

They had a little bit more time to get a little but of girth on them. So.

Tessa: 58:06

Yeah.

Kiona: 58:07

And you have two daughters. It's Maisie and Rosie. So how awesome that you get to tell your kids I caught you like I caught you. Jeff You're like, Maisie, I caught you. You were flying out And then Tessa. You're just like Rosie. You just. I just brought you up to my chest, you know, like, that's so cool to be able to turn to your kids and say.

Tessa: 58:32

And I really want to be able to tell them, too, that like, you don't have to have a baby in a hospital. Having a baby is not necessarily an emergency. For some people it might be. But if you have like a typical sort of normally progressing pregnancy, there's no reason that you have to have it in a hospital. So if you know, I'm a big advocate of like have it wherever you feel most comfortable. And neither Jeff or I feel really comfortable in a hospital setting. So we chose somewhere else. And so I think that is also like a message I want to be able to tell our girls that, like, you can do what you want with this. There are you don't have to necessarily follow like the typical medical path.

Kiona: 59:11

I think that's a really important message to pass down because, you know, I'm the same way. I'm personally not like anti hospital or whatever. I'm like you birth where you're most comfortable, you birth where you feel safest. like to each their own because everybody has their own things that guides them in a specific direction. And so for you to have the experience to tell your kiddos and to have podcast recordings of your thoughts and being able to share those with your kids, to say, Yeah, this is what was going through your mind, but like you turned out fine. I didn't drop you, you know. So I think that's really important to mention and keep at the forefront of providing agency for all decisions in their life. Right. To be able to trust their gut when they're making decisions.

Tessa: 59:58

And I also like the idea that, lik,I think there's this real notion in the birthing world that somebody else, a man or a doctor, has to tell the birthing mother when to push. But like, my body just pushed the babies out. I didn't stay, like, I'm going to push when I count to three. I didn't have someone screaming at me to push. I didn't have someone like timing. Like, I don't I mean, even the idea that someone else would tell me when to do that is so cringy to me. Like, it's just even now I'm like, Oh, I'm so happy that I did not have somebody saying push, push like you see in TV. I just I wanted to do it without an external person telling me how to do it. And, you know, I think because I had worked so hard on this hypnosis thing and we had picked an environment that worked well for us, and we had sort of had this vision and thought through some of the details. I was able to do that. And I know that just because we have a good plan doesn't mean it always works out that way. But I think, again, to kind of highlight this idea that, like our bodies were made for this and many times, not every time, but many times this can be a very natural and calm process that doesn't require someone else there to sort of push you through it. For lack of a better word.

Kiona: 1:01:11

Aboslutely. I agree with you there, because there is a lot of fear mongering and just fear behind birth in general because it has become so medicalized. And even when people go into the hospital and try to have an unmedicated vaginal birth, say they don't get an epidural, they're still very much coached through the purple pushing, which is like to hold your breath for 10 seconds while you're bearing down. And it's because I feel like in most hospital settings, when people are in that state of, oh, you're fully dilated, it's time to go. It's like, But what is your body telling you? You know, what is your body telling you in that process? Is it saying it's time to go? Yeah, cool. Let's do it. Is it saying, I don't know. Then listen, you know, if you can, but it is hard to listen to your body when interventions have been put into place. So purple pushing, I feel, is very, very common, if not always done with epidural birth because you're numb, you can't feel it. So when they say push, push, p, push, like you're pooping or like, you know, laugh or whatever to get your body to do the thing, a lot of providers tend to forget that there is sensation in people that decide to go unmedicated, and they're just used to checking the box of like, Let's do this this way.

Tessa: 1:02:25

I really had this feeling that my body was just like pushing for me. Like, I didn't ever make a, like, intentional, like, I'm going to push now. Like, I just felt like my my abdomen, like, shifting and being like, Oh, it's doing something different now. It's like, you know, just like you don't really get to pick when the baby, like, moves in your body. You know, when the baby drops a little bit, like you don't have control over that. And I feel like my body 100%, just like did it on its own without me having to say, like, do it now. My body just did it.

Kiona: 1:03:01

Yeah. I mean, the fetal ejection reflex is real. Definitely happens. It's just it's just a reflex, like vomiting, you know, like you can't control it. It just happens. So let's talk about your immediate postpartum with Rosie. What was that like? Because you guys were home alone. Your midwife came. Did your midwife deliver your placenta this time? Did you decide to breastfeed? And how was the breastfeeding relationship with Rosie compared to Macy?

Tessa: 1:03:26

So when the midwife came, she was checking everything. She delivered the placenta and found that I was still bleeding. So she gave me, I think, some pitocin. It didn't really help. And so I was like, Am I going to have to go to the hospital? And she was like, Yeah, prob. So she took me to the hospital, and so I was separated from Rosie for two days. That's not right. Of course I kind of lost track of time. And so I was really worried that that was going to impact my breastfeeding journey. But when I came home, my milk was still just starting to come in. And we just sort of picked right back up where I think we probably would have been with breastfeeding anyway. It was a little bit smoother. I think I was also just more prepared for what it was going to be like. We did have her checked for like tongue ties or lip ties or something and they said, Well, maybe she has a little bit. And I was like, I don't want to do it this time. Like, I'll just sort of grin and bear it. Like, I don't think the tongue tied lip typing really helped that much. Anyway. And the process for getting the tongue tied was kind of annoying. You know, you have to wake them up every 3 hours and stretch their scarred muscles or whatever. And I was like, I don't want to do that this time around. So I just kind of skipped over that part. And then I also was much more intentional this second time around about sleeping. Like, I knew I didn't want to get in this deep hole of sleep deprivation that I had been in before. So I was much more willing to say, I'm going to sleep during the day. I'm not going to get up and like put on cute clothes and like, take my baby to the mall. I'm going to sleep until, you know, I get enough like sleep for the day. And if that means that I'm not really getting up fully until two or three, then that's just how it's going to be. So I think this second pregnancy went better, in part because I was so much more intentional about I need to sleep. And of course get her up and feed her as needed. But then I'm going to go right back to sleep. And whoever is here or our parents or whoever can take care of her until I am rested a little bit more. And I think that made all the difference.

Kiona: 1:05:24

that makes a lot of sense because realizing that the sleep deprivation of your really extravagant to do list of what you wanted to do with Maisie the first time around, it does really hinder an impact. Even your breastfeeding. Like it impacts like your production and then the stress levels that are just in your body in general. So tell me a little bit more about how you guys navigated postpartum with two kiddos and who was primary for Maisie. Did you guys have a village that showed up for support? What was that like?

Jeff: 1:05:51

Yes to all of that. Basically, I was taking care of Maisie most of the time because Tessa's taking care of the infant, too, breastfeed and and do most of the primary care. But we have our family who lives in Missouri. It's a eight hour drive from Nashville, and they would come and stay with us for weeks at a time. And so our house was filled. It's like a little hotel here where there's people always sleeping here, always here. Schedules made no sense. You know, I work from home and so my own business and I'm doing the weirdest work hours I've ever had, you know, working in the middle of the night, if I had to, sleeping whenever I could as well. That was that was the key thing. Someone was always asleep in the house. Someone's always resting. And so it was a very quiet place most of the time. And it's trying to keep everybody chill. And it was a very different experience, but one that I think by comparison to our first one way smoother, there was a lot more support, a lot more experience, a lot more like we know what we're doing now. And even though there's a second kid here, like she was much more independent and we were it was a much easier process that time around.

Tessa: 1:06:52

I do think The first time around, I think I was a bit more like, stingy. I' like, I want to hold this baby and I'm just going to hold her all the time. And you can look at her and take her picture. But I'm really just going to hold her all the time. And the second one, you know, I think the grandparents had a lot more involvement. You know, go to doctor's appointments and staying with them and helping with medical stuff and, you know, doing a lot more like diaper changing and clothes changing and helping with breastfeeding. I mean, that was a much more of like a family affair. And I like that knowing that, like they were more and I wasn't intentionally trying to push them out the first time around. I was just like, so excited to have this baby. And I think the second time it was like, I'm also really excited to, like, hug my three year old while you hold the baby. And so I feel like the second time around I realized, like, I'm going to be able to, like, stare at her little face as much as I want in the middle of the night all the time. There's enough to sort of go around.

Kiona: 1:07:47

Yeah, that sounds awesome. And I really do truly believe that this is a perfect example of how it takes a village to raise a family because everybody came together for you guys and that is so awesome. Not something everybody has the privilege of being able to experience. So that's super great. And I love the analogy of your home being a hotel when someone's always sleeping. Like that sounds like the perfect dynamic for postpartum.

Jeff: 1:08:13

Yes, but I mean, the idea of a village did not hit me until our second baby. And then it was this realization of it's not just, you know, Tessa and I on an island taking care of our first baby. It was We need everyone who's willing to show up today. You'll give their ill, make us food or help us sleep or get the diapers changed. And I was not just, like,willing to take it. It was this obviousness that that's what this is, is that this is a community effort and that bringing a baby into the world is it should be a group effort and everybody loves their part that they play. And when it works that well, it's just is a really cool experience.

Tessa: 1:08:48

And I think they knew that they I mean, we didn't say we want you to come more. We want you to be more involved. They Jeff's parents specifically knew like, we're coming and we're going to be helping you. And like, whether you want it or not, we're coming. And it was very, very helpful.

Kiona: 1:09:03

That's awesome. So before I do let you guys go with this interview, I want to ask what the transition was back into real life. And, Tessa, are you also an early riser? Do you also wake up at 5 a.m.? But like, I need to know these things.

Tessa: 1:09:20

I like to sleep late and go to bed early, so I just sleep as much as I can.I think with two girls we all have to wake up early and our house is small enough that everyone is awake or awakened at 630. No matter what. But there is like a moment where I was like, should I be a stay at home mom? And after our first one, I was like, I do not want to be a stay at home mom. So I was very happy to go back to work. I actually went back to work after Rosie, like a couple of weeks early. I started kind of like part time, partly because of the just the calendar of the semester and being an academia like semester is starting. You know, it's not going to wait for your maternity leave to be over. I was sort of ready to go into like working mode again. I love babies and I love my children, but I was like, I would like someone else to, like, change these diapers for a little while, while I, like, do some research or write, read some books or something. So I was I was ready for that. We do, as we mentioned in our podcast, we've had a lot of problems with childcare here in Nashville. So we also had my aunt stayed with Rosie when I went back to work because we couldn't find a good childcare option. But I think, you know, there are a lot of women who decide to stay home with their kids, but I was one of those who was like, I'm ready to go back and like kind of indulge in like the intellectual challenges of work.

Jeff: 1:10:41

I was the same way. She was at the same question of would I want to be a stay at home dad. You know would I take on that role. And I think it was very obvious in these for Tessa and I both these last few years of we have like time with being parents, with our kids, which is great and time. We do our more like intellectual work with our jobs. And we value both of those things. And I like to have both times you're both that built into my day and to only do one. It doesn't work like I have to have like multiple things to to draw from. And so to be home all day with my kids was never going to be a thing that I would really, thrive with. It was more they need their autonomy again. They have friends that have opportunities there that I'm not going to provide here. Plus, I just I like I don't know, me time more that I realize now that I've kids. It's like that separation matters. You know, time by yourself is is valuable so.

Kiona: 1:11:31

Yeah, I can relate to both of you actually with that, because I am a stay at home mom right now. But man, would I love to have that intellectual.

Jeff: 1:11:40

Mm

Kiona: 1:11:41

Just like things pulling me in, which is why I created this podcast in general is because it gives you a schedule. It gives you something to do. And I was like, I need a deadline of some kind. Like I have to do something. So that's super awesome I just want to say Jeff and Tessa, thank you so much for sharing these stories with me. I am so excited to project these stories out into the world because they're so different and you guys are talking about catching babies unassisted in such a calm way. W I think is really awesome for people to hear, is that it doesn't have to be a scary experience. So I appreciate you both. before I let you go, officially, I have three final closing questions for each of you. if there was one piece of advice that you would give to pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth and postpartum. Tessa, I'd love for you to tell me that piece of advice from a pregnant person standpoint. And Jeff, I would love for you to tell me a piece of advice from a partner standpoint.

Tessa: 1:12:34

My advice would be to prepare. Like I think some people, their plan is to like, I'm just going to roll up to the hospital and they're going to tell me what to do. But I think really like doing some preparation, either taking some courses or reading some books. even if you do have a hospital birth or medicated birth, there are some time that you might be in labor before you get the support that you're looking for. And I would just encourage people to have a plan for that so that when your birthing time does come, it's not laced with stress and fear. So do some preparation. Be prepared.

Jeff: 1:13:07

I would say I've heard a lot about like the role of dads as being parents in general, and the bar seems to be pretty low for dads. And mostly what I've heard is like, if you just show up as a dad, that's awesome. Like A-plus. And I find that to be so pathetic. just showing up is not enough. Like when I show up as a dad, like, I need to be fully on I no, I'm not delivering a baby. But there's a lot that goes on. There's a lot of logistics, there's a lot of planning, and there's a lot of daycare drop offs and diaper changes. And to be fully involved in the process on purpose and to plan your life around it is it's a big choice. But once you've opted in to being a parent like you're in and I think that embracing that and accepting that makes the process so much better because then you can actually get good at it and enjoy it. And then it's fun. It takes a while to get to be fun.There's a lot of work first, but like, it does get fun and then it's awesome. But I think there's a for me, like, I don't want to I don't know set the tone is like dads are just kind of in the background. It's like, no, like be there and be awesome and then things are better.

Kiona: 1:14:13

I love that. I think that's so important, especially just coming from a dad. You know, it's coming from someone who is on the side of not being the birth giver. Because I also find it quite pathetic that people set the bar so low for parents like, Oh my God, you took the kids to the store by yourself. Oh, you're so amazing. You know, it's like, Yeah, do I get a high five in a cookie every day? So, yeah, I appreciate both of those pieces of advice and viewpoints. the second question that I have is what is one resource that each of you would share with the listeners that is related to preparing

Tessa: 1:14:49

Mine would be the hypno baby's or hypnobirthing. Like, I think the specific one that I did was called hypno babies. But there's other ones I think out there. But I didn't know that that was even like an option. So I would put that out there for new newly pregnant women or people who haven't heard of that before. Like just Google it a little bit and see if that's something that feels right for you.

Jeff: 1:15:10

I don't think I actually have a resource specifically because I piggybacked on it, maybe so much like we did those courses together. And I think a big part of it was like latching on to what Tessa was doing. I mean, a funny story and an obvious thing that I wanted to make sure I told was that one of the Tessa knows where this is going one of the tracks that is near the end of the process has the both of you will listen to the track together as designed for the couple to listen. And at the end of the track it's like, imagine your stretchy vagina. And I'm like, I'm trying to do that. It's not working for me. But like, but at the same time, we have this sense of like, we're in this together and we chose a resource, you know, together that she definitely was vibing with. And so I wanted to lean on what was working well for her and support that and Hypnobabies was so effective for her, like she was so in the zone so much. There was like, whatever I could do. I read aloud the scripts to her to prepare her for that and I became a trigger for her to calm down. I would say the word relax and touch her shoulder, and then she would instantly relax. And so but I think that's a key word for her now. I can do it now,and she still responds to it because it's so powerful and so I just thought me being involved in that process in that way ended up being very helpful.

Kiona: 1:16:26

Yeah, I think that's awesome. That's a really good point. And hopefully you don't say the term relax in an argument because I don't think response. my last question is, if each of you could choose one word that you would use to describe the birth experience for you, what would it be?

Tessa: 1:16:43

One word that's hard to narrow it down.

Jeff: 1:16:45

Surprising is the word.

Tessa: 1:16:48

I think just joyful. Like, even with the ups and downs, like the net emotion is joy.

Kiona: 1:16:57

Awesome. Yeah, I think. Both of those words can definitely be heard in the stories that were shared today. So yeah, I love that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for giving me your time today. I appreciate both of you. And yeah, I'm going to share this far and wide.

Jeff: 1:17:13

Excellent. Love it.

Outro: 1:17:24

If you are still listening to this episode, you know that I had an absolutely amazing time interviewing Tessa and Jeff. They brought so much experience to this episode with having two unassisted births Unexpectedly. And this was all done through Hypnobirthing practice, which I think is such an amazing practice to consider because it really helps you hone in on how you could possibly cope throughout your birth experience. Tessa and Jeff, I want to thank you so much again. And I also want to give Jeff another shout out for his podcast, The 5 a.m. Miracle. If you are struggling to find motivation in order to accomplish all of the things you have on your to do list, you should absolutely check out the 5 a. m. miracle because he focuses on dominating your day before breakfast and it's such an amazing resource for those that need that extra oomph of motivation. now going back to Tessa and Jeff's birth experience, their first one in particular with their daughter Maisie, I was so curious and as I was editing, I realized that I didn't ask if their midwife was Ina May because they were at the Farm Midwifery Center. So I reached out to Jeff and asked him, and he said, no, their midwife was not Ina May, but they did have the opportunity to work with Carol Nelson, who has been with the Farm Midwifery Center since 1971 and has caught over a thousand babies, And if you remember, Jeff mentions that when they were at the farm and he had just caught his daughter, Tessa actually took a picture of him. If you want to see that picture, you're going to have to join the private Facebook group for the BAWKI community in order to do that. Go to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community and request to join because this image is not one that you are going to want to miss The fact that he's actually leaning over the bathroom counter while doing this is truly amazing and if you want to support the production of this podcast, you can do so by going to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/support And I want to give a shout out to all of my patrons so far. It is because of you that I was able to purchase a new set of headphones for the production of this podcast. the ones that I originally had, were on the cheaper end and they hurt my ears as I would sit at my computer for hours editing these episodes. But it is because of you that I was able to purchase a higher quality set of headphones to where I'm no longer experiencing that pain. As for the next episode, I had the opportunity to interview Melissa Llarena, who talks about the birth of her three sons. She has two birth experiences. And yes, you heard that right two birth experiences, which means she had a set of twins, both of her birth experiences were vaginal, and her vaginal twin birth experience was actually precipitous. So that means it happened really fast. So you're going to want to tune into the details on that. I am super thankful that you listen this far. I truly appreciate you and I look forward to talking to you again soon. All right. Bye for now.