64-Melissa Llarena-3 Vaginal Births-Twins-Gabriel, Noah & Nicholas

In this episode, Melissa shares her two personal birth stories of her three boys. She talks about what it was like to give birth for the first time while being induced and then going on to have a precipitous vaginal twin birth the second time around. 

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/64 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.

Want to hear another twin birth story? Check out episode 10-Kendra Buchholz-Miscarriage-Vaginal Twin Birth-Mora & Wren

Resources:

• Melissa Llarena: https://www.melissallarena.com/ 
  1. Mom Founder Imagination Hub (formerly Unimaginable Wellness)
     • https://www.melissallarena.com/podcast/ 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International:https://www.postpartum.net

Definitions:

• Precipitous Birth
• Vacuum Extraction Delivery 
• Twin-Twin Transfusion Syndrome (TTTS)
• Monochorionic/diamniotic (mono/di) twins

Transcript

Intro: 0:08

Welcome to birth as we Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiana Nissenbaum. I have experienced birth as a Dula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth state.

Disclaimer: 1:05

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your license provider.

Kiona: 1:25

Before we dive into the episode today, I want to remind all of you that we have an awesome Facebook community, and in order to get there, you have to go to birth as we know it. Podcast dot com forward slash community. This group is specifically for birth as we know it podcast listeners. So I would love for you to join us now. If you're looking for another twin birth episode, you can go to one of our older ones, which is episode ten with Kendra Buckholtz, where she talks about her unmedicated vaginal birth experience with her twins. All right, let's dive into the episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the birth as we know it day I am decided to interview. I actually met her once, Real life at Pod Fest in January of 2024. So it was super awesome to run into her. And I'm excited because Melissa is an author, imagination coach, consultant, speaker and contribute to Forbes women articles that she is also the host of her own podcast called Unimaginable Wellness for Entrepreneurs, founders and creators who are moms. So welcome, Melissa. Thanks so much for coming on today.

Melissa: 2:38

Thank you so much. It is always amazing to meet someone in the flesh and then be in this audio format. So this is a treat. A pleasure. And yeah, I vibed with you. Right. Good energy. Right? So I'm very excited that we're having this conversation.

Kiona: 2:57

Yes, I agree. I think that meeting someone in the flesh and vibing is a great start to just a good connection in general, because you already know that you can have a good conversation with them off the record. you are here today to share your personal birth experiences with your three beautiful sons. So let's start all the way at the beginning. Let's talk about the moment that you decided that you wanted to be a mom.

Melissa: 3:25

It's so interesting because I will say and I heard this from my mom at that time, and I always knew that I wanted to first complete business school. Like, that was important for me to get the Master's or the JD. I was planning on going to law school, but I quit that because it sucked, to be honest. And so I was like, I need something else that doesn't suck as much, but, you know, is still kind of taking me along that growth path of my career. And so my mom told me she's like, you know, you're one of the few people that says her goals and then actually accomplishes them. I did it exactly when I said I wanted to do it, which is obviously like a blessing. It's a privilege. Not everyone has that opportunity. But when we began that path of, you know, trying to be a parent, it was two tries and I became pregnant. And and that's and that's my truth. Both parties were extremely clear that we wanted to start a family. I think at that point we were about six years into our marriage and people even questioned whether I could have babies because I wanted to wait. I wanted to wait. We were traveling the world also before becoming parents, and that was eclectic in terms of the people around me and the family members. They're very traditional Latino, you know, very family oriented. that was the first child. That was Gabriel. And I know he would not want to be like listening to this conversation because I just said it took two times of doing nothing that I'm going to share any further on. But it's so awkward, right?

Kiona: 5:09

What you got to do to make babies, you know?

Melissa: 5:11

Got to execute. There's a plan. And you do it. Yeah.

Kiona: 5:14

Right? No, I think that's awesome and good for you for being okay with being happy about it. Being only two times. that's your truth. It is what it is for you. And that's part of your journey. So I'm happy that you were just open to saying, This is me, this is what it was. And we set a goal and we met it quickly.

Melissa: 5:31

Yeah. And the twins, was even more miraculous because that was one time. And we've got two beautiful humans. I don't know what to say. It's like I'm not sorry. I actually wish that more people that had stories that were like my own, I wish more people would open up and be like, This was real to me. And and and I respect anyone for whom it was very, very, very rough. Like, I totally respect anyone that has had a very different experience. You know, IVF or surrogacy or all of that. And and for me, I feel like I'd like to be respected for my experience to.

Kiona: 6:14

Exactly. Yeah, 100%. And that's part of why I do this podcast is because the way that people get pregnant and literally every single step is different for everyone, and nobody should feel bad about their successes. And then nobody should also feel like nervous or scared to share their hardships because it's their truth. It's part of their journey, and I think that's super important. So let's actually dive into what your pregnancy was like with Gabriel. Was it a smooth pregnancy? Did you feel okay? Let's get into the details of that.

Melissa: 6:46

Yeah, that one was simple. Let me just say, you know, because I'm comparing it with, like, identical twins later on, but with Gabriel, I would say I felt beautiful. I did not feel sexy. But I remember one girlfriend said to me, she's like, Melissa, this is I know you're not going to believe me, but this is the sexiest you will ever look and be. And I was like, Really? You know what I mean? Like when your tummy is all protruded like that and things are just like, not, not where they used to be. Like, you do not feel spicy or sexy or any of that jazz. But that's what a girlfriend told me. And so now it only took 12 years, 13 years later. I do believe her. I actually do believe her. So the time, I just I just felt like, wow, okay, here I am, you know, with this this one person inside of me and everything kind of felt a little scary. Of course, you know, I was very anxious in terms of like, well, what is going to happen? You know, when I delivered this child, why does everything have to hurt more in terms of like the OBGYN, you know, doing her thing in order to see what's necessary. Like for me it was like every single do an appointment was just like another like emotional rollercoaster for me, you know, It was more like, why do I have to be touched? And oh my goodness, why can they just leave me alone? You know, those are really the thoughts that pass through my head. And I would say that the whole experience upfront was not invasive, but it did feel kind of like a little unnecessary because I didn't feel like anything was going wrong. I didn't feel like anything was unusual or needed. This, like extra tender loving care, although, you know, stirrups or whatever, those are not loving and they're not caring. But, you know, it just kind of felt like overkill. So it was like, why are we doing all of this stuff? And then forget about like that sugar drink that they had me drink, right? That a lot of us have the check for, like the different sort of diabetes and sugar levels and stuff. Like for me, I was just like, Why are you giving me poison to put in my body when I don't have any history of any of these things, you know? So I was very, very cynical throughout my entire pregnancy. I was just like, you know, I don't feel like I need all of this. And upfront also, when we were choosing or really me when I was choosing the OBGYN, something that I really paid close attention to was C-section rates and, you know, vaginal birth rates. I had never considered doing it or giving birth like at home or anything. Like it just wasn't even in my consciousness. But I first was going to go to one hospital and I went there for maybe the first appointment or so, and then I found out about the C-section rates and that pissed me off because I was like, okay, so going into this, you know, they seem to have this like, interest in C-sections more than I have an interest in being cut open. And so that was when I started into like asking my girlfriends, right? Like, who was your OBGYN and what was your experience like? Funny enough, it was like after the fact, after I had gone into that sterile environment with like the doctor that looked like they were knife happy and such. And I remember that's when I went from one hospital to another and that other hospital was known for, for more vaginal births and having a different philosophy. But at the same time, I had my own convictions throughout this whole process. I didn't feel like because I was pregnant, all of a sudden I was stupid or insane or like like just not knowing. Like, what makes logical sense as far as what I needed as a mom. So I stayed connected to like my gut and to my instinct, even though this was the very first child for us. And finally, you know, I feel like I did make the right decision. But at the same time, later on in the pregnancy, I felt very like fear mongering, even from the new OBGYN, even from the new hospital system. I felt like they were putting a fear in me that was unnecessary because the whole time everything was totally fine. And then at the end, because I was already at that 40 week time frame or whatever, they were just pushing me. They were like, Well, if the baby doesn't come out by, you know, A, B or C, then we're going to have to induce you. And that put the fear of God inside of me. Again, I had zero context for my own birth, but I was just thinking about a knife in my body and I just got scared. That is all it is. I was really, really scared. And so what I did was Google like crazy, right? And we're just like, how to induce your self in a natural way? Or like, what do you eat? You know, in order to get those contractions going? And what I decided to do, apart from I think it was dates or whatever it was at the time, was to walk like a lot. And when I say walk, being in New York, you have an opportunity to really walk miles and not even notice it. And so that's what I did. We actually went one night into a story, a park in Queens, and we went my husband and I went to a track like a running track. Well, I was nine months pregnant. I was not running. Instead, we were walking around the track and my husband says that I looked so in pain because I was also like, crouched over as I was walking around this running track. And I was just trying in my mind, I was like, okay, I must get this kid out of me. I must get this kid out of me. And I just kept walking and walking and walking. And then we walked back to our apartment or whatever. But, it was very helpful. Let's just put it that way.

Kiona: 13:17

So when you were in these OB offices, what kind of vibe were you getting from them that gave you that gist of like, No, I don't want to work with you.

Melissa: 13:25

So at the beginning, what was really interesting is a lot of times when you talk to a mom, I don't know if we like, forget like selective amnesia or something when we're talking to someone that is pregnant or we just want to be nice or whatever. But I had gotten this recommendation from a friend and she had her baby at this particular hospital, and I did not know until after the fact that she was then told to get a C-section. I didn't know that piece of the puzzle. Basically, I had to do my own research after I had that first appointment. It was only one appointment. That's all I needed in order to feel like, okay, know Those before making a true commitment to an OBGYN. Although to be honest, like if anybody's listening, you get the heebie jeebies from anyone, even last minute. Still stand up for yourself and ask some extra tough questions if necessary. That would be my guidance. But for me, it's really a feeling. And then I'm very, very direct, especially when it comes to health care. I will say something that is absolutely rude if I have to, because I don't care. Like at the end of the day, I care about me. My body, my baby, my family, that that person that's in the room, the obudu line or whatever they are a nice to have in my opinion, as long as I'm healthy. And they also have zero consequence in terms of my legacy nor my choices. This is my opinion at this point. So while the person might be in the room, they are not in my life like so. So I would directly ask this OBGYN as I did when I went to that first one that gave me the heebie jeebies for lack of a official word. I went and I asked this person. I said, okay, I want to have a vaginal birth. So that's direct. I want to have a vaginal birth I want to be sure that this is in alignment, that this is something that we could work towards. I'm not saying I'm crazy, and if things happen, I'm going to risk it all for that vaginal birth. You don't go crazy when you become a mom. You know, you might be more bold. You might say things that you wouldn't have said before, but you're still, like, legitimately, like a caring and intelligent and logical human being. So I said that to this person. So this person, I don't remember what he said, but he didn't say what I wanted him to say. Let's just put it that way. Chances are he says something like, We'll see, you know, we have to see how things progress. Essentially, anything someone would say if they don't want to be sued. Right. So it's like, cover your ass season when it comes to talking to a medical professional, especially when you're saying something that's so ballsy like that, something didn't align. There's something, and I think a lot of us, we might ignore that, you know, because we might assume the person went to like a great medical school. They're in a position of power, quote unquote. I could care less, to be honest. You could be the next coming of God. But if I feel that something is wrong, something doesn't feel right, I'm going to go and advocate for myself. And that's what I did. I was just like, okay, I'm already in my mindset when I'm in my thirties, I'm going to start the family. And I also, in my mind said I wanted to have a vaginal birth again. I am not like, no matter what, it must be vaginal, do or die. No. If I feel okay and if things are okay, then that is my preference.

Kiona: 16:57

Hmm. Yeah. No, I think all of that is so intriguing because even though you this was your first pregnancy, you still listen to your intention. You still followed your gut feelings, you know? But in addition to that, I did have a question for you. Did you ever pursue any kind of childbirth education throughout your pregnancy to kind of become a little bit more educated on how to prep for labor and birth?

Melissa: 17:21

Oh, yeah. So with my first, this is actually like really, really fun. And I suggest for anyone that is already doing like yoga, I was doing yoga for a really long time. And so then when I became pregnant, I then was like, Oh, what prenatal yoga options do you have here in this yoga place in New York? And what was cool was that they had this amazing prenatal yoga instructor. She wasn't a mom, but I didn't care. She made me feel good. And if I had things to complain about, we could complain about them. And that was just like what I needed. I remember I you know, I always liked child's pose, but for some reason when you got a big belly in prenatal, it just hit differently and it was like the best child pose experiences ever. So that was one thing that came in really, really handy for two reasons. One was, of course, the fact that you're moving your body right? And so that's one side of it. And she also helped in terms of finding a way for you to rest, even during those microscopic moments of like a tiny bit of time between pain. That was great. But the second side of it was that here I am, brand new person to having a baby. And there were other women that were in that room. So the community piece of it was really cool. And also it was just a time where so much uncertainty, it's like I needed to hear other people say something like, you know, my bellybutton feels like it's being ripped out of my stomach, you know, like, because otherwise you feel really weird. And if I were to ask my mom, she'd be like, Well, I don't know. I had your sister in, you know, 1993. We're in 2011. I don't know. to get that information from people going through it at the same sort of stage is so useful. So that was that was what I had access to. And that same prenatal yoga instructor had this one class about birthing specifically. And I can't say that I used any of it at all in any way, shape or form, not even breathing, none of it. She definitely said, Don't scream, which is what I did do. But it was an opportunity to bring my husband with me to this class. And it was cool because, there were things that she was showing that I could not have explained to my husband. Like she even had Prop ups and it wasn't anything gory or whatever. It was like, you know, a can of like coffee or something, like a folgers metal can of coffee. Like that's the size of the vaginal canal or whatever the biggest size. You know, these visuals years later are still in my mind. And, and for me it was like even if I was getting information that was theoretical and I never used when I actually, like had the baby, it was still like so much fun because it was also like, Oh, I'm learning about this. This is interesting, honestly. So that, yeah, that's what I did and I really loved it.

Kiona: 20:33

Yeah, and I love that you talk about the visual aspect of it. Even if you didn't use any of what was taught to you at that time intentionally throughout your labor. There might have been something subconsciously, potentially, that came about and you weren't aware or you're like, even maybe after the birth, you're like, Oh yeah, I remember blah, blah, whatever, you know, But even if all you got was the visual of that metal Folgers can, when the provider tells you, Oh, you're complete, you might have had that come into your head and be like, I'm as big as your skin, you know. So I think that that's, that's interesting. And because people learn in different ways, you know, people have the audio learning, they have the visual learning, they have the hands on learning, like all of this is so different. And just to be able to get whatever you can from that childbirth education class slash prenatal yoga, I think that's awesome. Even the movement, you know, just being able to move your body in ways that make you feel good throughout your pregnancy is awesome. I.

Melissa: 21:28

Yeah.

Kiona: 21:29

Super, super awesome.

Melissa: 21:30

And you feel special. It's like, Oh, I get to be a topic, you know, you just feel special. And I think I think anything that makes you feel special and to know more about your body, it's worth it, for sure.

Kiona: 21:45

Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%. let's go ahead and dive into the birth of Gabriel. When was the moment you found out? Like, okay, this is really happening.

Melissa: 21:56

Yeah, that was really hilarious because they wanted to induce me. And so, you know, I spoke about like, going on that track, that running track, right? So that was the night before my scheduled induction. And again, I was really banking on somehow inducing myself those 24 hours beforehand get to the hospital. They decide to put in me sort of a deal to thin out my cervix. And that was extraordinarily painful. I have such an opinion on things that are like extra versus normal. And I can say with certainty that the stuff that was extra, as in like the hospital put something in me that was like, man made that sort of hurt more than the stuff that was just my body doing its thing. So this cervical thing, they put it in me. Okay, so you're supposed to sleep 24 hours or whatever, and then in the morning the cervix things out. And then they were going to induce me with Pitocin and all of that stuff. that was a great plan. I love that they had a birth plan for me. I also love that that went into a shredder because it did not happen that way. So of course, I was watching a TV show where this woman owned a boutique in Manhattan that had maternity clothes. Then all of a sudden, of course, I started feeling the pain. The pain. I could not tell you then that that was a contraction. I didn't know what the heck that was, but I know that they put cervical in me and I know that it jacked up my lower abdomen because it was hurting a lot like a strong menstrual cramp. But super extra. And I think it's because it's something that's manmade, synthetic. You know, it was really ouch for sure. And my husband was there and he was sitting down, you know, in those like plastic chairs that are uncomfortable that don't recline right next to me. Somehow he was catching up on his Z's. I was not. I was looking at the TV and these maternity outfits. And every time I felt pain in my head, I was like, What the fuck? And I was looking at the ceiling in this hospital, you know, sanitized hospitals. And I was looking at a red blood dot stain on the ceiling. Go back to yoga class. Yeah. You're supposed to focus on something. And I'm looking at this blood of some other person on the ceiling while I'm feeling these experiences in a hospital, and we're just there and I'm like, Wow, this is hurting a lot. And they kept coming all of this to say my husband there was just no way I was going to go through that alone. So I woke him up and I was like, I don't know what's going on here, but I'm in pain. And so then he started like monitoring like how long in between? And I don't remember precisely why, because we were, like, in a legit hospital. I don't know why he didn't, like, get help. You know, we're in a hospital. Hello? They did the service, though. It was like, I don't know, maybe three in the morning or something. And so we're there. These two novices in in giving birth, and we're just like, hmm, pain time it time it pain. And so we went on and on that way. And then all of a sudden my husband's like, I think these are contractions ions because they were coming at a pace that felt like, oh, it was in alignment with what it is to give birth. And I was like telling my husband, I was like, You think? Mind you, here I am. I'm like, you know, in in labor or whatever this is. And then we go and we decide to call someone in. And at that point I told my husband, if this is not labor, if this is not giving birth, then I am not going to be able to do this because this felt disgusting, a horrible, horrendous like hell on wheels. so my husband gets help. Of course, my OBGYN was not available because why would that be the case? Like, I mean, come on now, that's just ridiculous thinking. And there was this person there who I don't even know who it was. It could have been like a Green Goblin person, but they were there to help me then. Great. Right? So they came over and they're like, Oh, wow. I think I was at the time, I think I was eight centimeters when they came in, you know? So I was holding out. I was holding out. And I was still like, Oh my God, am I having a kid? Like, what is going on? You know? I'm like, going crazy. They're. And then the person couldn't find my OBE doing whatever. But it's like, you know, I'm not waiting for anyone, obviously. But at the time I remember thinking, okay, I can't do this. Like, I just kept saying, I can't like, Hello, I can't do this right. So eight centimeters is almost there. almost Folger's can. Right. And, and I remember I remember saying, okay, I want a epidural. I want an epidural. So of course they come and then they start describing what this entails. And I did not know what this entailed, but I wasn't carrying funny enough in that very moment. I was just like, I'm going to die. Like, we need to resolve this. Let's get this done. And all of a sudden they're like, Oh, you're too far. And, you know, there are certain words that just like, stand out in your brain after a lifetime. And like, those words stood out for me, because then that meant, you know, here I am, Serbisyo was really kicking my ass, that's for sure. I know it was. But on top of that, the whole time, I didn't know I was in labor, but it hurt a lot. And then all of a sudden now they're saying, Oh, and yeah, it might hurt more, but it's too late. You know, it's like this too late. That's basically what stands out for me. And then they're like, All right, let's do this. I'm there and I'm just like, kind of like a little helpless bird that just has, like, a sailor's mouth, you know? And. And they tell me me not to curse. And I'm looking at that blood dot on top with my gentle gaze. And they're like, Don't, scream. And I was sarcastic, very sarcastic. I was like, But it helps me, you know? And I just kept doing it because it helped me. And I honestly did not care who was in the room. I was just like, I need to do what I gotta do anyway. All that to say finally. Kid is crowning. No epidural, no nothing. Just, you know, doing what I'm doing. And then they had to, like, suction him out, like, get late. The little suction vacuum thing, which is like his mom. My mom told me that they used. Was it not tongues? You know something?

Kiona: 28:52

Forceps.

Melissa: 28:52

Forceps. Yeah. And I have a beautiful little dent in the middle of my head on top because of that. But for my son, they used, you know, technology got advanced, I guess, and they suctioned him out. And I remember my husband saying, Oh, my God, that was so scary. Like, what if his head comes out of his body? But thank God he came out and everything was perfect. And I remember at the time, just being a little bit in a daze, kind of like, Oh my God, what the hell happened? But then it got worse because I was like, I didn't know. I had no idea that stuff had to happen after that. Like, how was I supposed to know? And all of a sudden I'm there and I'm thinking to myself, Oh, great, I could be left alone. And then all of a sudden they're like, Oh, now, we got to give you Pitocin in order to take out the placenta. Now, mind you, me, my impression of Pitocin was like death. Like, I was just like, Oh, my God, I did all of this. And now they're putting this, like, poison in my body and going to have me feel the pain that I didn't feel before. And they did it because I guess I didn't have a say or whatever. And then I think they just pulled it out. But I didn't even have, like the baby on my chest. You know, kind of experience. I just had a baby, which was amazing. And my husband just followed our son Gabriel to wherever it is that they took him to clean him up and all that stuff. But I just remember being in that bed and just kind of like, what the fuck was that about? So it was like it was like one of those shocking things. But my body, funny enough, my body as a body, I felt very like, okay, well, if I have to go and walk around, mop the floor, clean the blood stain that I've been looking at this whole time, like I could do it, I felt like I felt kind of like, okay, you know, but that cervical thing, like, I feel like that fucked me up. That was the thing that was like, Why do we do this? That was really bad. Yeah.

Kiona: 31:05

Oh. Oh, my goodness. That is. First off, ill with the bloodstain. That's.

Melissa: 31:11

I know, I know.

Kiona: 31:13

But I will say with some experience as a birth worker, it just happens, man. Blood splatters, urine splatters, amniotic fluid, like it just sprays sometimes. And I. It would be great if hospitals regularly clean their ceilings or at least looked for that. But did. Maybe it just like didn't catch their attention. But yeah growth. Second, I love how your husband Jesus. This was still like, okay, you're in pain, let's timeless. Let's do this like we can let's figure this out. And the fact that you didn't know you were in labor, it amuses me because like I have had experience of being in denial of being. Because you also don't know what to expect the first time around, right? You don't know what to expect. You're like, okay, they gave me this video like they say, okay, it'll give you some like cramping and stuff, but what you were experiencing was not like cramping. You know, it was full on labor that just needed a whiff of manmade solution to, like, get things rolling. And I understand your husband's fear of the thought of your son's head popping off with the vacuum extraction, because when you look at it from the outside, it's very scary to look at because you're just like, whoa, it's like this mini plunger, basically, that they suction to the top of your baby's head and just like, help navigate them through the pelvis. But like, it's it can be scary. It could definitely be scary. So. Oof! Okay, so Gabriel was taken Was he taken out of the room or was he, like, in the same room at a warmer. And then your husband was over there with him.

Melissa: 32:47

I mean, they put me in a wheelchair and I was holding him and I think I was then taking him to maybe the nursery or something like that in the hospital, the whole cleaning process and stuff. Like I think my husband went with him when he was being cleaned. For sure I was not present. I think that's kind of how it happened. Like he wasn't in my room and this is something that I'm very like clear on was, okay, I know I'm not going to be sleeping when we're home with my children, so it's okay for them to be in the nursery. Well, I have a little bit of space to myself for a couple of days.

Kiona: 33:25

Yeah, that's good. I like that you have that boundary set beforehand. let's go ahead and dive into what your initial couple of weeks of postpartum look like for you with Gabriel. Did you decide to breastfeed? Did you experience any postpartum mood disorders, like anxiety or depression? Let's get a little bit of insight on that.

Melissa: 33:44

So when I had Gabriel, you know, he had I think they were saying like, oh, you have to be mindful that if he has jaundice or something. And so, like, you know, keep him in the sunlight and whatever else they told me to do. So that was something like, Oh, great, instant worry. Like the second I'm home with this child, you know, and he was not in the nick you. He was £6 and change. I don't even remember the change. Everything was good in the sense that, you know, he came out totally cool. And so that was one thing. It was like, okay, welcome to motherhood. Here's something to worry about in case you didn't have anything else to do. And then I remember saying, you know, I want to exclusively nurse my son for a year for 365 days. I was quite specific about that. And I remember that that was such a rough path for me because that was not something that was common in our families at all. From my mom's perspective, for example, she always said, Oh, I always wanted to nurse you, but me and my sister, we were formula babies, you know, through and through my husband, formula baby, through and through. And so for me to decide that I was going to nurse my son, I feel like it brought up some insecurities from other women in our lives. And that is the reason why it was rough. Like, if it was just me and my husband and my son, it wouldn't have been so complicated. But for some reason, if I were to go to a family home or whatever, it was very weird for me to have my nursing cover, you know, in the middle of like a living room with, like a bunch of people from the family. But I did it because I'm crazy that way. I said, Let's change things up a bit. I had to be very brave in order to do that, because that was not uncommon. And for me, as far as emotions with my eldest, it was really, really rough because I have a very complicated relationship like with my family. And when you start singing lullabies that were sung to you while your emotions who it is not cue like your emotions are so tender to begin with. Now you start bringing in stuff from when you were a baby. I don't know. You know how they say the body keeps score? Like God knows if you know I'm singing and the vibration of my vocal chords is reminding me of a time when, you know, my mom was very like, anxious with me. Like, my mom has a mental illness since forever. So for me, you know, I in the womb and not that I remember this, but I surmise, given the fact that I read so much about this stuff. But in the womb, probably, probably I was very, very anxious because my mom was very, very anxious. So now here I am with a baby on top of my chest, you know, and I'm singing songs that maybe subconsciously I associate with nervousness and anxiety to begin with. So I was feeling definitely very insecure as a mom. I was feeling very like, you know, first you had the jaundice thing and then you had the. Here I am nursing this kid, you know, am I producing enough milk? You know, I'm an eight cup girl and I love my eight cups. And that's what we're going to have and we're going to keep. And for me, I was like, well, let's see, you know, let's see if I can produce what's necessary. So I would go to the pediatrician and then you weigh the baby, whatever. And he was growing, but he wasn't like going to be a jolly green giant. And I'm five feet. So where you going to get a jolly green giant from anyways? But for some reason, you know, doctors have their charts and, you know, some of their charts are based on formula fed babies, you know. And how do I know this? Because I was Googling the whole time, because I was feeling insecure and I was trying to increase my milk production. You know, if there was a tea, I was drinking it. If there was water, I was drinking it. I mean, it was just an obsession. Every time I would go to the doctor to have the number go up. And so for me, I was like very committed. I was just like, no. But I felt like everything was fine. Like, it's a pattern. I felt things were fine. Things were fine. But when you look at the numbers it didn't match up with what the doctors wanted to see, so I had to, again, just be very thoughtful all about, okay, am I feeling this kid enough? Does he look happy? Houses, jaundice, all of this kind of was, like, co-mingled in my mind. And then you add on the whole emotional reminder, right? Of, like, complicated relationship that I have in my life and a tenderness that goes back to being a kid or maybe a baby in my mom's uterus. I mean, you know, stuff gets really, really gnarly when you are emotionally tender and you are tending to life, you know, and not just life, but to your offspring, to someone that just is half of you and you feel like you're like they're everything in that moment. It was very complicated. I was crying a lot, but I wouldn't say I had like postpartum depression based on people that I spoke to. If anything, I think if I'm honest about it, like a little bit of like, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder popped up for me. You know, like anybody that has a parent that has a mental illness, you don't get out unscathed. You know, it's not like, oh, that was an experience. No. Like, you know, it really does. He hits you. And so if you are coming in with little sleep at that and then you feel like a reminder to like all this like emotional gunk that you may have not fully processed, but you got to keep going. And then you're told every day, hey, you might not be feeding your kid enough. It can get to you, it'll get to anyone. You know, you put you put a Navy SEAL, okay, And have them have no sleep and a touch of baby to their nipple. I don't care. Your man, woman, whatever. Like, you're going to start seeing things. You're going you're going to be delusional, and it's just going to be really messy. And yeah, there's a lot on the line, period. I don't care who you are.

Kiona: 40:28

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. There's so much about what you just said that just rings true for both myself as well as a lot of my listeners, because, man, I don't think that people talk about it enough. How sleep deprived you are and how that impacts you mentally, but then also how you don't realize some of your emotional reminders or triggers until you are a parent yourself. Your child will do something or you will do something for your child and you will feel like your parent, like you will feel like your mom, or you feel like your dad. Like some of the ways that I discipline my kids. My sisters will tell me, Oh my gosh, you sound just like dad. And I'm like, That's not my intention. But we learn how to parent about the things that we want to do and the things we don't want to do from our own personal lived experiences. So our lived experiences have so much importance and they navigate so much about how we do things. So yeah, I can't even like, bring to words how much I can relate to with what you were just saying. I'm sure that many of my listeners will also relate. So if you relate to this, you guys share this episode right now because somebody else will be able to relate to that too. Let's go ahead and jump forward a little bit because you had this experience with Gabriel and then you got pregnant with your twins just two years later, correct?

Melissa: 41:52

Mm hmm.

Kiona: 41:53

How was that? When was that decision made to start trying again? And then what were your reactions when you found out that you were having two babies instead of one?

Melissa: 42:04

Yeah, it's quite memorable. See that one I remember even more vividly. I think the emotional high was like higher than high because of the unbelievable ness of it all. So I would say, you know, Gabriel was about one and a half or something like that. And I remember thinking, okay, and this is so bad. It's a little bit so it's a little bit like kamikaze. So I don't know if it was World War Two or whatever. You had a Japanese like fighter jet, people that would just throw themselves in situations. And it was very extreme. That's exactly what it was like for me deciding to have a second child. That is what I thought in my mind, very close. So for me, I always would tell people before I even became a mom I wanted to have a full life experience, what that meant for me. It was like, okay, I want to have two children. That was the thinking. I was told that you should have, you know, more than one child. Mind you, a lot of people I know were only child. I felt like one for 14 years of my life until my mom had my sister. But, you know, have more than one. They keep each other company after you're gone. Right. And so I was like, all right, so we will do this. We will have a second child. And I told my husband upfront years earlier, I say, you know what, Because he always wanted to have 12 kids, which clearly is not happening. Yeah, I told him, I said, who? Who are you going to have 12 kids with? Because it ain't going to be me. Like it's just. Yeah, not even. But I did tell him. I said, you know, we'll have three if. So there was a big if, if I'm drunk. So I was like, we're going to have two. But if I'm drunk, then we could have three. I said that. That's what I said and I meant what I said. But I wasn't drunk when we started for the twins. Now this is like, legit. I really told them that. So anyway, I said that that was in the in the air. Then we, you know, I said, okay, let's, let's start having, you know, the second child or whatever. And Gabriel was about like I think one and a half or something like that. And so I knew that I wanted to have the second individual, I think before I was 35. Again, that was fear mongering in terms of like health care people. It's like, oh, once you're 35, you know, then you know, you can have as many kids as quickly and all of this stuff. That's what I was told. Mind you, my mom had my sister when she was 43. No problems. So anyway, we go and we we start the process of, you know, trying to conceive. And as I mentioned way earlier, it was one time. So I remember that we tried to conceive and, you know, I got pregnant and I knew I was pregnant and I took the pregnancy test on the day that we celebrated my oldest son's birthday when he was turning two. So after the birth, they party we were in the living room and my husband was feeding my two year old now. And I don't know why I did this, but there was like a pot with water near my son. I think it was to entertain him like as he was being fed. And I just like threw the pregnancy test like into the pot of water. And I was like, Oh, we're pregnant, you know, And and it was happy. We were all happy. Everybody was great. Happy. My eldest didn't know what was going on, which is great because now that that's been a whole rigmarole, you know, the whole jealousy and and things. But we were happy. So this was a happy day. Then, of course, we went to the OB-GYN. So this was not exploring the one that did the C-section thing. We were still now at the other place where they were more open to vaginal delivery. And so we go there to see the doctor to do a sonogram, very first sonogram. I want to just say, before that day, I was feeling extraordinary nausea. And I remember, you know, how they have like those bracelets you put on for nausea. So I had two sets on both wrists, like I looked like Richard Simmons from like, you know, dancing to the oldies. Like I had two bracelets on because I was that nauseous. I was like, crazy, nauseous. And I told my husband I was like, this better be twins because I feel horrible. That was a joke. I meant it as a joke. So we go to the ob gyn and we're waiting a very long time. And my husband then had to leave before we had the sonogram because he had a meeting or whatever. And when I say long time, like this is legit, like waiting for an hour and that's like out of control. So I'm by myself in the OB-GYN. The doctor goes, does a sonogram, and she's like, I think there's two in there. And I was like, What? I was just like, to what? You know? And say, there's I think there's two two fetuses or babies in there or whatever. And and when she said that, I said, Are you joking with me? That's what I told her. And she's like, Why am I going to joke with you? Is like, well, we're like, where is this coming from? Like, you know what I mean? To to. And so then, yeah, she said it was too. And then for some reason, it's kind of like a gear got stuck in my head. I just kept saying, Oh my God, oh my God, Oh, my. Like, I just kept saying that over and over. I couldn't really say anything other than those words. So some gear was stuck in my head and I was in complete shock, clearly, like, you know, I'm waiting there for an hour. I'm like thinking it's just a regular sonogram. I also, before this whole thing told my husband, you know, I really want this to be a very calm pregnancy, unlike my first because my first I didn't know what was going on. I was anxious, whatever. And I said that. And that was a straight up joke, because then now I have twins, right? So when I told my husband about this, I played it very cool. Same day, same, you know, right after the doctor's appointment. Like, I couldn't hold that in, really. So I called him and I said, Hey, let's do lunch. I want to show you a picture of the sonogram. I was very cool, calm, didn't see a thing. And he's like, All right, sure. So then I go to a papyrus card store. Like one of those fancy card stores, Grand Central. I pick a card, and I wrote on it, and I wrote BOGO. Buy one, get one free. Basically, I had to write on this card. A card did not exist. Not even an expensive place for my situation. So I created it myself. So I go and we meet up at Chapultepec because that's where you tell people that we're having twins out of Chapultepec. And so we go to Chipotle and we're having our burritos and I just throw the car to him. I was like, I didn't know what to say. I just threw the card at him. He opens it up and he's like, What? Like is like we're having twins. And I said, Yes, we're having twins. What is it like? It was just like we were so I felt like I had air in my head, you know, kind of like, what is this Twilight Zone moment in a Chipotle in midtown? And yeah, it was a shock. It was so shocking that when I even told my mom, my mom didn't believe me. She thought I was joking. She's like, No, I have to talk to your OBGYN. So I was like, in my mind, I was like, you know, she was in my time. I mean, we a little bit of her time. So I call my hope is you weigh in. And I had her tell my mom, Yeah, like I'm not lying. You know, like this is actually twins. And so the whole thing is that identical twins are twins that happen almost as if magic. And the odds are like one out of 200 and something. Those are the odds. And it's not necessarily something that happens from IVF or any any other procedure. It is like just a miracle. And it was just like the biggest shock in the universe for me. It was so shocking.

Kiona: 50:11

Man, I cannot even imagine. I would probably do the same thing just saying, Oh, my God. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Over and over. Because, like what? You know, like, that's amazing. It's scary. It's crazy. It's all of these things at once, and you're like, Whoa, There's no going back now. Like, this is happening, you know? It is. Tell us a little bit about the details of how this pregnancy was different from Gabriel's, because you have two babies now and you're five foot.

Melissa: 50:41

We.

Kiona: 50:42

Babies in your little body. So I got to know. Tell me all the deets.

Melissa: 50:46

Yeah. So with these twins, I was not back in a regular full time job. What I had done, because I'm. I guess maybe I am a little crazy. But at the six month mark when I first became a mom with Gabriel, that's when I opened up my career. Coaching practice is what it was at the time. So I was coaching people virtually had always been virtual. And so when I got pregnant with the twins, I'm happy that I didn't have to, like, physically go on trains in New York City and commute and go to a job because I was super nauseous, Like it was just like beyond control. And what was interesting was that I did have a craving that is so weird and so nerdy, but I'm going to tell you what it is. So apparently I really, really wanted to have roasted beets and after the fact I researched it. But beets have a lot of folic acid that you actually do need when you're pregnant. And so my body was just feeling a lot of beets at the same time with this pregnancy. I was so scared. I was like, Oh my God, I wanted to relax now. Like, what the heck is this? This is not relaxing. Because now in my mind and I think this is just common thinking in my mind, I just said twins equals cesarean because that's just what I assumed. And I was so, again, deathly afraid of the knife big time. And I remember this time around I was like, okay, I'm going to meet OB-GYNs beyond the one that helped or didn't help me birth my firstborn because she wasn't there when I gave birth. So I was like, Let me interview OB-GYNs that might be good at, you know, twins or whatever. And so I remember meeting one OB-GYN and it was a female, and I don't know if that even mattered. I just assumed that they would get it a little more. But I feel like I was kind of wrong in this instance. So I had the conversation with her. And ultimately what I found out was that it didn't matter what I thought that I wanted as a birth plan for twins, because when I spoke to her, I said, okay, well, I would like to have them vaginally. You know, here I am. And I wasn't guns blazing, but I was very like clear on what I wanted. I just had a kid and I didn't have any issues. And so for me, I'm thinking I can do this. You know, I can do this. I'm not saying I wasn't scared as heck, you know, imagining it, but I was definitely thinking, I think I can do this. I would like to try, like give me a chance at least to try to do this. This lady didn't care. She could care less. She was like, And we will schedule your C-section I wanted to say, just get on her right and just be like, Motherfucker. But I didn't say that. I didn't say that. You know, these are things that go on in your head. But what I did say was like, thank you for this appointment. Peace out. No, I'm not taking you on as the person. So then I just went back to the same person that I had for my eldest. You know that, O'Bagy, when the reason was because you get exhausted, there's so many decisions you have to make. And if you have more than one child inside your body, at least in comparison to the first pregnancy, I felt like I had to make even more decisions because there were new things to think about that I didn't even know existed because I am not a twin and I had no idea. So was just a lot more information that I had started to consume also, because again, I was not working full time. So now I had more time to actually Google stuff, to understand like what the heck was going on in my body. And I also started questioning because it's like, okay, I'm five feet tall. Like, what the heck is it about me that makes me the one to have identical twins? So obviously anyone that has twins probably knows these little tidbits. But, you know, there's certain criteria for people that are more likely to have twins. And being five feet eight, one of them. So I was like, what the heck? They get to be tall, apparently. You know, these are things you find online it to be tall. very, very healthy. I was like, all right, you know, I eat healthy. And then there were other things that were just like out of whack with me. So I don't know what it was ultimately, it was a lot of trying to understand, like why I had identical twins, which is hilarious. Like, I just kept wanting to understand why me, you know, in a good way. But like, what the heck did I do that brought this about? And then the other side of it was, you know, being extra careful with my weight. Like, I was very concerned about that because with my first born, I put on, I don't know, £40 or whatever. But then it came off very simply for me. And when I had the twins, I was like, Oh my God, is my body going to, like, just break like, you know, I'm so little, I'm very petite. So it's like. So then I started thinking to myself, What can I eat that just puts the weight on the kid and not my thighs? And so of course, I fell upon horrible eggs. Of course, I was eating a lot of horrible eggs throughout my whole pregnancy. And I'm not a doctor. Clearly, so I'm not saying eat that. But what I'm saying is that I feel like it really helped me because the twins ended up being full term, which for twins at least four identical twins. It would be, you know, what was it, 38 weeks or something like that. And both of them, they grew perfectly. One was like five, 12. The other one was six two or something like that. And it was just it was a really good pregnancy. It was really, really big. My stomach and both pregnancies, by the way, I didn't want to know the gender of the baby. So with this pregnancy, I didn't know if I was having two girls or two boys. What I did know is that they were mono dye identical twins. So what that meant was that they were sharing one placenta, so they were both being fed or nourished from my one placenta, and they each were in their own respective amniotic sacs. What that meant for me was that you know, it was a little higher risk than twins that have two placentas, one per baby and amniotic sacs, one per baby. There's another more risky version of that. And so that was something else that was always on my mind. It was like, Oh my God, is one kid going to be like eating all the food of the other kid? And then they had something called Titi syndrome or something, I believe, where one kid eats all the food and then the other one doesn't, and so one survives and one might not. And so you have all these extra fears that it's like, seriously, like, I really did want to enjoy the pregnancy, but now if I had the idea that I might get a C-section and T syndrome, I was a little bit of a wreck. And then of course, I had my first born. He didn't, like, magically disappear and get taken care of by a fairy godmother. So that was really like a lot of work. Oh, and then we had a dog. Let me just tell you, here we had a dog that was a Yorkie. teacup. Who would poop on a wee wee pad? So imagine me with the biggest belly in the world bending down to clean up a wee wee pad of a frickin dog. You know that? That dog went to Connecticut to a beautiful family that couldn't have a kid because I was not about to have twins and have my, you know, firstborn and a friggin dog that I had to bend over for. It was either the dog or me. And I was going to win is just not even a battle. But what I did do, I kept walking like the whole pregnancy. And when I say walking, I mean I was walking. Really, really far. Like, if I was in, like, Columbus Circle, like for anyone that's familiar with Manhattan, I would just walk, walk, walk over bridges. I would go through neighborhoods like my mother in law saw me one day close to when I was going to give birth, go to like a Whole Foods, which was close to my OB-GYN, carry my bags of Whole Foods, which had some weight to them, hop on a train and get to Long Island City or whatever. And she was like, Are you trying to make yourself have the babies? And in the back of my head, I was like, Yes, because I didn't want to be induced. But yeah, and I remember I would be in the street. People are very mean. I would be in the street. And this one lady said, Oh my God, you're so big. I didn't know that lady. I didn't know that lady. This is like a stranger in the street telling me I'm so big. Obviously, I wanted to punch her in the face. I was just like. Like, that's messed up. Can people say nice stuff? And then with the twins, the other thing that was unique with twins versus my oldest was that I then had something on my big, big, big belly that looked like a rash. It has a name to it, but I don't remember. But when I had this rash on my belly, it was very itchy and I looked like a burn victim on my belly. I found out that it has to do with the, I guess, testosterone levels that were in my body. And so that was a clue that I was going to have boys. But still, I didn't know until I gave birth.

Kiona: 1:00:37

Yeah. So just for our listeners, if you're not aware t t t syndrome is twin to twin transfusion syndrome. And then when you're talking about this rash, it makes me think of two things. There's help as well as pups. Do you do any

Melissa: 1:00:52

Pop

Kiona: 1:00:52

of

Melissa: 1:00:52

sounds right.

Kiona: 1:00:54

Which is yeah, super, super itchy. And it can it usually does start in the belly area, but it can go all over your body as well. So.

Melissa: 1:01:03

That was horrible.

Kiona: 1:01:04

And to the lady who said, You look huge, may you never say that to another person again.

Melissa: 1:01:09

So rude.

Kiona: 1:01:10

Yeah. Sorry. Do you have no idea what's going on with the individual that you're saying that to? You have no idea how far along someone is because sometimes people show so much earlier and have bigger bellies when they're earlier in pregnancy versus about to pop a baby out, you know? So. Yes. Oh, my gosh. I commend you. You are a saint. Like, you're so awesome for being able to handle two babies in your body. I have had three pregnancies with one baby and each and I was over it. So I can't even imagine two babies fighting for that space in utero. It's just so let's keep moving further and let's actually just go dive right into your birth with the twins. Let us know how that was.

Melissa: 1:01:54

So by that time, yeah, I did realize what it would be like to have contractions. What happened was I was at the I think it was already 38 weeks when the doctors wanted to see me in the hospital, like every single week, Like, again, fear mongering, you know, it was like, Oh, we have to monitor you. We got to be sure that both babies are nourished and all of that stuff. And so I was just in the hospital every single week. You know, I was living in Queens Hospital, was in Manhattan. I was taking a train. now that I'm in suburbia and, like, just use cars, like, yeah, it was more rough than I would have experienced. I imagine, in a more suburban location. But I would say that at the same time, I mean, it did give me exercise, you know, it did keep me going. At no point did they say bed rest. So there I am going to the hospital every single week. And, you know, I had to get like kind of like a like reassurance from the nurses because I was so, so scared and I was, like, talking to them and I was like, do people that come here every single week, like, do they make it out okay? Like, you know, and they have pictures of babies on the walls and stuff. And so that's a little bit more reassuring. But men, it was scary to have to be in a hospital all that time. So anyway, the doctor went and would have wanted to, you know, induce me. But before anything was scheduled, I had actually gone into labor because I had walked so much like I was hard core, like I was walking so much that my stomach was very, very heavy. And so I would be bent over with my hand under my tummy holding it so that I could walk like I knew I was like, as long as I'm okay and I don't feel anything funky inside my body, I'm going to keep moving, keep walking, even if it hurts my belly button. At that point, I kind of lost hope in my belly button returning to its normal shape. And I was like, You're dead in the water belly button. So that's what I did. And it helped me in terms of just making me, you know, going to labor. So one evening we were in our apartment and I was just starting to feel pains and my water actually officially broke, like the first time it hadn't. So this time it did. And so I was like, Oh, okay, this is like what I saw, I think, on The Cosby Show or something, you know, a hundred years ago. Right. We have these, like, TV memories. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, okay, something's happening tonight because I feel this and this feels yucky and ouch and all of that. However, to compare, I didn't have Cerb Dole or anything in me, so I felt more manageable. It felt more manageable with nothing extra going on and to humans inside my body. And I told my husband and of course, my husband. I mean, you know, sometimes you want to like, really hate your partner. And I think I wanted to hate him at that point because I was just like, yo, I think is happening. We got to go. And for some reason he wanted me to, like, not take a shower before, but he asked me that and I was like, really, really take a shower. No, I'm not going. I'm not I'm not I'm not going to take a shower. So I didn't take a shower. I was like, No, we got to go now. We got to go now. And so we went to the hospital and at the hospital we saw had our son with us. So of course, we had to do. And I'm happy we were around family. We got my husband's family to drive to Manhattan to pick up our son. But in that moment that my husband was with my son and I was by myself. I remember being in, like, I guess the waiting room. No, it wasn't a waiting room. So the waiting room has seats. But I was in like an actual. Is it a gurney or. I don't know what is call, you know, those those hospital bed things. And I just remember thinking to myself, like, oh my God, I really hope that I'm not totally by myself when I give birth to these these guys or girls or whatever I was having, I didn't know. And at the same time, I also had there was a male nurse that came in. Now my life experience and you know, this might not be the but to share all of that stuff, but my life experience is very much so that my doctors, I like to make sure that they're women. I just feel more comfortable with that. So please understand, if I'm seeing a nurse that's a dude while I'm there, you know, like holding it in and pushing it out at the same time. I was not feeling comfortable at all. And I remember I told the guy I was like, like first in my mind, I was like, What the fuck? You know? Like, why does it have to be a guy? Like, that's the thought I was thinking. And, and I told him, I said, I said, I have to fart. I remember telling him that I was like, I have to fart. I don't know why. Right? And he's like, Do you? You know? And it's like, I don't need a ghetto hospital attendant. That's a guy, you know, because you think to yourself when you're on the street, these are for me. In my case, if I'm walking on the street, these are the ones that are ogling and looking at my. But, you know, and it's like, so awkward. So awkward, but I farted. Whatever. I farted. He was there. Everybody survived. But I was still waiting for my husband. So in my mind, I was like, you know, I want to push clearly, but I want my husband to be there. Right? So I don't know what that delicate balance was, but I achieved the balance. You know, essentially what happened was my husband dropped off my son. He was, you know, with the grandparents. He comes back and in the moment he's coming back, I'm being rolled to the operating room. And so in my mind, I am freaking the fuck out because I'm like, I do not want to have a C-section. Why are we got to go to the O.R.? Blah, blah, blah. Clearly, I'm not able to do much in that situation. So you're rolling me away. But my husband comes just in the nick of time, and they put on his, you know, scrubs, whatever. And so he's coming. So we get to the O.R., and we're in the O.R. And again, you know, I didn't have anything at all at this point. I didn't have epidural. I didn't have I didn't even have What is it for bacteria that they give you? What is that? Penicillin? Huh? That was the biggest joke. My doctor was like, Oh, we got to give you antibiotics. Yeah. Uh huh. When it comes to real time and you're there in the O.R. and it's just game time, everybody forgets shit. Everybody. And I had none of that. Zero of that. I didn't have that from my oldest either. So, you know, they benefited. Their immune systems are, like, pretty kick ass, I would say. So I'm in the O.R. and my husband's there, and then, you know, I'm pushing or doing whatever needs to happen. Finally, the OB reunion arrives after a little bit of time. Of course, this time around, like, if if I didn't have time for epidural back in the first one. This one was definitely a no go, because at this stage I don't know how far along I was, but I was pretty far. And my OBGYN also got all pissy with like the people that had me in the waiting room. They were like, she already had a kid. She was going to be coming, you know, real quick, you know, in terms of this birth process or whatever, because the first time was six hour labor and this one was only 3 hours. And so I go and I'm pushing and I remember the first child does come out. That was totally fine. My husband says that I look like he was flying thing out of me. That was Noah. That was Baby Ay. So Noah comes out and I was desperate. I was like, What is it? What is? I was desperate, you know, And I still had a kid inside of me. Please be aware. So desperate. I was like, What is it? And so then finally they they said it was a boy. And then I was like, okay, so then I'm going to have another boy. Another boy. That that was like a these are like split second thoughts that you have when you're in the middle of still giving birth and you still have another human inside of you. And I remember at that point it was just me and it was the OBGYN, it was my husband. But then all of a sudden and it could have already happened, but I forgot to mention it, an entire freaking class. Of hospital resident people comes in. I was like, Motherfucker. Like, I felt like they should pay me. Okay, Pay me to watch me do this. And you're learning and you're becoming, you know, an OBGYN or whatever the heck you're becoming. So I had a whole audience for this experience with my legs open. And please be mindful if I was nervous about farting in front of one dude earlier, I didn't I didn't feel embarrassed at this point because I was already like, ripped to shreds, for lack of a better phrase. But I was not the happiest camper to have my legs open. And you see all these people and it's like because I felt like it was like not their moment, you know? It was like, This is not your moment and I don't care. You have to do this for credits. But that's what it was. It was a whole class. I was like, What the heck? Oh, class. And my doctor just kept saying, She's like, Oh, I've been a, you know, a doctor for however many years. And she's like, Yo, you're one of the few people that has twins and has no, you know, surgery and whatever and no epidural and everything. And I was just like not seeking an award at that time. It was like, Oh my God, I want to just have this kid. Right? So, of course, this is the most memorable part for me in the entire world, in the entire universe. So basically, between having a first child and a second child, if you've never had two, then this is new. What could happen is pretty scary. Like you could have your first child vaginally, no epidural, Everything is okay. And, you know, for whatever reason, have to do a like a C-section for your second child, if your second child has any issues or whatever. And that was the one pressing fear that I had in what ended up being only 9 minutes. But it felt kind of like, oh, fudge, you know, if I did it the first time, I need to do the second time quick. Like, this is not this is not a game. And so when I was there and I was just really like in a very prayerful, very still moment and I wrote about it in my book for All Imagination. And I just had to figure out psychologically how to almost like, connect with the child that was still inside of me. You know, it's like I had to somehow summons Nicholas and just be like, I know you like it in there. I know it's warm. I know it's cozy, but please come out. It is time to come out because the alternative would have been a C-section and what was interesting was that in parallel of me having this rather spiritual moment where I was imagining him using all of the power that he has, because I don't care if he's a baby. Like, I still feel like you're still powerful, period. You know, even in your most vulnerable moment of life, you're still powerful and you could conjure that power. But in that parallel moment, my OBGYN decided to and I call it this because this is how I felt. She decided to wish bone me. What does that mean? So if we know a wishbone is where you have a wishbone from, like a turkey or chicken, whatever, and then you pull the two bones apart. What she did to me as I'm having this spiritual moment, trying to connect with my youngest, she basically took my legs and she took probably like my vagina. I would say I did not have a mirror at the time looking. And she just put her hands on both sides of the vagina and just, like, pushed down like, like down. I don't even know how to describe it, but let's just imagine a wishbone and then you're just like, pulling it apart. Well, that's what she did with my skin of my vagina because she wanted me to feel like I was going to the bathroom, like pooping. And for some reason, this pretty heinous act is something that helps you feel like you're going to poop or whatever and helps facilitate the birthing process of a human being That was really bad. Like, I'm like, right now, my, my, my vaginal wall right now is like, quivering because I just said that, like, you know, that's like, real, real shit. And again, I did not have an epidural. I did not have anything numbing me. This was just me. I'm conscious. We're conscious and I see this and there's a suite of doctors looking at this, too, because, you know, now I'm an exhibit, I'm exhibit A, and and so. Okay, did it work or was it my visual was in my imagination, I don't know. But he did come out. You know, he did come out and it was fine. Everybody was fine. But I was very, very it was it was horrifying. Like, it really felt like something that was very like, you would imagine in a war kind of you know, very, very inhumane, very, very striking. And I can't tell you if it was necessary or not. He came out in 9 minutes. He was perfect way again, the second time around with with my twins. I did not have the contact, the skin to skin contact, which I've heard of is amazing. I have yet to experience that. But I yeah, I had them. And then here's the kicker. So now I know I got a placenta inside of me and at that point I feel like there was some grace involved. They don't, they didn't give me Pitocin for that one. I think they just like she literally legit put her hand inside of me and just took it out. Yeah, she took it out. Did I keep the placenta? Did I see the placenta? No, but think about that placenta like that thing that sustained two babies who ended up being full term, full size and were never in the neck. You, you know, like that's a frickin placenta and a half. And. And so, yeah, that is what I can remember of that experience. Just as capable afterwards, like I was able to, like, do whatever. I didn't have any issues. Of course you wear the diapers, right? Because you're bleeding like crazy for both. I had diapers and stuff. I was very, very scared for this one. Peeing. That was scary. That was scary because of the wishbone more than anything else. And yeah, they did stitches and stuff and those dissolve. So funny. These are the things they tell you when you don't give a shit is like, I don't care. Like it's like, yo, you just wishbone me, okay? Like that's a problem. But anyway. Yeah.

Kiona: 1:17:37

Oh, my gosh. That when you were describing that sensation and feeling of the wishbone that you call the wishbone just like makes me cringe so bad. And I feel the pain. You know, I just feel the pain. And I'm just like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. And keep in mind that that is after you've already had a baby pass through your vaginal canal. So you are tender or you are sore like that is already there. And that intense physical reminder is very taxing and obviously memorable and painful. So. Goodness gracious. Huh? Okay, so let's go ahead and talk about your postpartum time with the twins really quickly before we dive into talking a little bit about your podcast in book. So how was your postpartum time with the twins?

Melissa: 1:18:21

So with the twins, it was very complicated because that year was a year from from hell, to be honest, because my stepmother had cancer, She she ended up dying. So there was funeral stuff going on. My mom, who has a mental illness, had been given too much medication so toxic levels in her body. So she was in the hospital for a solid year and we had no idea what was going to happen. So this one year where I didn't have any sleep whatsoever, I also had that idea of exclusively nursing my identical twins. Like, that is something I wanted to do. But this year was when, you know, I had these other very complicated and emotionally exhausting situations for which I had to then apart from the twins in various moments. It was very taxing, but I really wanted to exclusively nurse my twins and for me, I felt like all throughout my life, actually, I have always felt like, okay, like the world could be falling apart, but I need to fight for myself. And so for me it was like, okay, the world could be falling apart, but I need to fight for my twins. And I know that it might sound to some people like, God, that's a bit extreme because as I said, I was a formula baby and my husband formula baby and like, we're fine. But for me it was just something that I really felt strongly about. I just really did. So what I ended up doing was quite extreme, and I write about it in the book like, you know, when you want something and you're like, for real, for real, you want it like you make it happen. Like whatever you need to do, that's when you get creative. And I got very inventive and I also got very open about what I needed help with. And I think that's important, you know, through all your pregnancy, even if you suffer a loss or a pregnancy too, and you don't have a viable baby inside of you or whatever, like asking for help is so important. So what I did was, you know, I'm nursing the twins. I had to, like, learn how to tandem nurse twins, which hurts a lot, but not as much as the wishbone did. So, you know, I was like, Oh, it's not as bad. And and so I, of course, would go to the pediatrician and of course, it was the same thing. It was like, Oh, your babies are not growing as fast. And because, you know, they're comparing it to formula fed babies and I'm five feet tall, whatever. So ultimately, know, I told people I was like, I don't know how to increase my production, how to get them to be fat, you know, like cute little cherubs. I don't know. But they were like, always happy when they were having milk and they were always, like, cheerful. And so, again, following my instinct, I didn't feel anything was wrong. So I told a friend of mine and this friend of mine, she was she had twins, she had twin girls. For some odd reason, she was able to produce so much milk that she had put milk in her freezer in like a cooler. We're talking about a kind of cooler you would bring to like Jones Beach, a foam cooler where you put like Coca-Cola two liter bottles and stuff. She had so much extra milk. So I told her, I said, look, I have to go to a funeral service. I have to go to my mom's hospital. I have to do this, you know, can I have your milk? And she said, yes, because nonprofits that, you know, you donate milk to, they have so many regulations that I don't think. I mean, she had her two daughters still, so she was in the thick of it, too. And she had an older daughter. So she's like three girls and I'm three boys. And so she was not about to, like, complicate her life and do whatever those nonprofits needed. And I needed the milk. So she donated the milk to me, came over with that big, big cooler. And I was just like, great, You know, at least I have something to help me when I'm away from my kids. So this whole time for 365 days, I exclusively nursed the twins. However, if I had to go out and I couldn't pump as much as I felt was needed or correction, the people that were taking care of my baby just felt like they needed to keep feeding my kids. So they were just using from that stash, right. The stash of the donated milk. But again, they were at my nipple for the most part. You know, I felt like a bird with a nest and my bed was like a nest. And I always had two kids staring up at me, like eating, you know, That was like my whole existence that year. And that year was crazy. I also that particular year, it was also when we moved from the city to a more suburban environment. And that year was also I also had pneumonia too. This was like after eight months when they already were eating solids, which was like a godsend. I was like, Oh my God, I'm so happy they're eating solids. And mind you again, I still have my older son. Like, I didn't like he didn't go with the dog like I still had him. So of course, for me I was very happy and able to get someone to help me, you know, with my oldest. And everybody has their own sort of way of doing it. I don't know if it was the right way to kind of like have someone take care of him and then maybe like always on a bed feeding these two humans, because obviously my oldest is now very jealous of my twins, but ultimately that's what had to happen because I was going to die if I didn't do that. Like, I just, you know, and I had to literally there was one day that I go to the funeral for my stepmother and I took the pump with me to the funeral. And I asked the funeral director, Hey, can I pump in your office? And I had to do what I had to do. And so that's what I that's what I ended up doing. I was very, very focused on this idea that I always have held like close to my heart, which is, okay, like, like, let's say, like my mom has always been suffering or people around me have have suffered. I don't I don't want to feel the full consequence of other people's suffering, you know, because I feel like then it's like not only do they suffer, but then, shit, I have to suffer too, you know? And so for me, like, that's why I was like, okay, you know, shit hit the fan. The world is falling apart. I have these two matriarchs essentially that are disappearing, you know, in their own ways. I need to become the matriarch that I need to be and I need to hold it up and I need to figure this shit out. And and that's that's what got me through that year. And so 365 days and I fed them only from me. And then my friend Angela, which is so ironic because in I think we were 18, we got our I got only one tattoo, but we got our tattoos together. So the same girl that I got a tattoo with when I was 18 is the one who donated her milk when I became a mom of twins.

Kiona: 1:25:25

It's amazing. It's so amazing. I think that I, I just think it's amazing that it just happened to play out that way. You know, You had such a strong relationship already enough to get tattoos together and then to say, oh, my gosh, we both have twins around similar time and you have a stash of milk. Can I please you know, can I please take this? And when it comes to taking that donated milk, I think that's awesome that you took advantage of that opportunity because not a lot of people would do that. You know, there are more people doing it and really like wet nursing and milk sharing as part of our history as humans. Like that's something that we've done, especially in like Native American culture, like, you know, there's even some cultures where the grandmother nurses the child. So the mom. Continue to care and provide for other things that the grandmother could no longer do. So it's so interesting to hear how that dynamic played out for you and it, you know, literally sounds like your year after having the twins was so chaotic, but you pulled. And did what you had to do and set your boundaries and stick to those boundaries. I commend you for that. That's absolutely amazing because a lot of people will break. A lot of people will break. So that is that is so awesome. I love that we had the opportunity to hear all of this from you because it's so exciting to actually dive into the details of these things. Before we do hop off, I want to talk to you briefly about your podcast as well as your book. What are some things that make your podcast different than all of the other podcasts out there?

Melissa: 1:27:07

Yeah. So unimaginable wellness. It's really geared towards mom founders and entrepreneurs who I have seen personal only over the last 12 years as myself. Being a mom founder, I have seen a lot of us fall off a cliff in terms of, you know, mental health, in terms of trying to do exactly what people that might not have caregiving responsibilities are doing in order to grow a business scale the business, make money and feel successful. And so on. My podcast, what I always like to do is I'll invite an entrepreneur. I am very, very open. It doesn't have to be a mom at all. I'm just looking for the stuff that can then be translated to a mom who has a lot of obligations. So what I do that's different than maybe other podcasts that are out there is I might bring a world class entrepreneur who you can absolutely hear on like Gary Vaynerchuk podcast, but I'm that person that's there like, okay, and this is how to make relevant what you just did without caregiving responsibilities relevant to someone that feels oftentimes conflicted because when you're working on your business, you're not with your baby, and both of them are very important to you, especially if your business has your name in it. Like, this shit is personal and the stakes are crazy high when it comes to our children. And so I like to support mom founders as they think about, okay, how am I going to make it work and how can I use my expansive thinking abilities so my fertile imagination in order to create a path that I may have never seen another mom in my family walk on before? And that's what a fertile imagination is, which is my book. It's Fertile Imagination, A Guide for stretching every Mom's Superpower for Maximum impact. And what I did was I featured some of the guests from my podcast in my book. And again, it's not just moms and it's not just people from the United States either, because I don't think the United States has ownership on the best ideas in the world. And I also feel like I can learn from anyone as a mom. For example, I do learn from my children, right? So same could be said. I could learn from someone that is in Nigeria, for example, I have someone from Nigeria in my book. I can learn from someone who's in Japan, who's a man who's, you know, multimillionaire. I have someone from Japan was a man who's a multimillionaire in my book. And I am the thread. I am the mom who takes these ideas and I tell you, I'm like, okay, this is how we could translate what this, you know, badass person did to your life as a mom. Even if you have two kids on your nipples, like, I'm there for it. I've been there and I could help you think through how to make your, you know, whatever's on your mind a reality for you, on your terms and your timeline so you don't feel like you're left behind or on the sidelines or not. Cool enough for late. The same level of success as these fancy people out there.

Kiona: 1:30:27

Yes. Oh, my gosh. Yes to all of it. Because I do want to say I read your book and so much of it I resonated with and so much of it I connected with. I even as a mom, as a parent who has primary caregiving responsibility, I connected with the billionaire man that's over in Japan. I connected with the 50 year old who decided that she's going to do martial arts. You know, like I connected with all of these people and I could appreciate and implement their advice and their guidance in things that I could do in my every day. And like you said, it doesn't have to be this massive change, right? It's just really finding that mindset thing that you can change just once in your day or that you can change to continue to do as a habit over time to make you a better person as an individual, which then helps you be a better parent. So I love and appreciate that. So this has been an amazing, amazing conversation. Obviously, like we are way beyond the time that I am used to doing these things, but I just couldn't get enough of what you were sharing. I couldn't get enough of the details. I couldn't get enough. And if anybody is listening to this and this is your first time around, get used to really long episodes because I. Into to it all. I want to get it all in. So before we close off, I have just three questions for you. The first one is what is one piece of advice that you would give to pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth and postpartum?

Melissa: 1:31:59

Advocate for yourself. That's number one. It's okay to be unreasonable, I would say. So I would even go that far unreasonably advocate for yourself.

Kiona: 1:32:10

Nice. I love it. And I agree. Advocacy for yourself. If you can't do it yourself, hire someone that can like or have someone by you that can. And what I mean by hire, I'm talking about like a birth doula or a coach that can help guide you on how to get the the oomph that you need, that extra push to make that step of advocacy. My second question is what is one resource that I can share with my listeners on your behalf? Of course, I'm going to be sharing your podcast as well as your book. It'll be in the show notes for this episode. But is there anything else that you can think of that you would want the listeners to take advantage of?

Melissa: 1:32:47

Let me let me think about that, because I have so many things that are free on my website. Honestly, you know, I really do believe in a woman for example, to have this financial freedom and financial ability to just like fend for herself so she doesn't have to, like, be with anyone who's like, not worth her time. And so, you know, if you were to go on my website as an example, go to fertile ideas dot com, I have there are resources for anyone that is interested in, you know, staying connected to the world of commerce. I think that was the key and has been for my success. A lot of us don't feel relevant if we like pause in our career or like we're home with our families and I want to help anyone that's like shy or hesitant to like, talk to people, to network. And I know that sounds like so boring and oh my God, transactional. But honestly, just like I talk to all these people, like and I'm sure you do too, who are like, fancy schmancy on my podcast and entrepreneurs, you could talk to anyone and I feel like that's a resource that you can definitely use. So if you go to fertile ideas dot com and you take their for example, I have a freebie, a connection playbook. So there's a playbook that I have created for mom founders. It could be used by anyone, so that'll be our secret. But the whole idea is I want more moms. Even if you're not working full time to still talk to people that feel intimidating. Because I believe that you have something to offer like you 100% have something to offer. You don't need to be fancy making a lot of money or any of that. You have something to offer. And I would encourage you, I would dare you actually to talk to someone that intimidates you and see what you can find out in common. That's how you stay relevant and that's how you stay viable, even in the world of work, even while you're not working.

Kiona: 1:34:50

I love that. I love that so much. And I love the aspect of talk to someone that could be intimidating because. I have even with this podcast, as well as just how my life is, I have come into contact with people that would be considered like famous or, you know, higher up like, for example, my mother in law is Nepali and she is a famous folk singer in Nepal. Right. But. She's in my house helping me take care of my kids. She's family. She's a human being, you know? And when I prep for interviews with people that I would consider to be, like, very well known or a little bit intimidating or make me a little nervous, like a little bit fan girly, you know, I have to remind myself they're human, just like me. They got to where they are for a reason. And that's what I want to know. I want to hear about all the details. They're human, just like me, you know? And if there are some people that take that fame to their head, they're not the person I want to talk to because they're not open minded enough to have a conversation. So, yes, I appreciate that very much so. My last question to you is one of my favorite questions to ask all of my guests is if you could describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Melissa: 1:36:05

Hmm. The first one. One word. I mean, naive is the word that comes to mind. Just like totally naive. I was very naive. The whole thing was just like, well, the second one said, I want to say like a curse word, but the word that pops up is like a motherfucker. Basically. Like, it's like. It was like the ramble birth, you know? Like, I really felt like Rambo. So we'll go with Rambo. How about that? So name two Rambo.

Kiona: 1:36:38

I love it so much. Oh, my gosh. Melissa, thank you so much. I'm so happy that a genuine connection that we made at Pot Fest just made it to where we can have this conversation and get to know each other a little bit more. I am super excited about putting your story out there to the world and I'm also excited to just have a new friend. So thank you.

Melissa: 1:36:59

Thank you. This has been awesome. I love the fact that you held space for such a long time. Otherwise, it's like put my stories long, my stories long. But you. You definitely helped me there. And that's very gracious of you. So I appreciate you.

Kiona: 1:37:14

I know. Absolutely. Like I said, you know, that's one of the main reasons why I have this podcast is so people can tell their story from beginning to end.

Outro: 1:37:32

Chatting with Melissa for this episode was throwing me for whirlwinds. She had so much information to share. And I really thought that it was important that she brought up how your past lived experiences. Known or unknown can come up during the post promotion. Yeah. Or just be in. Joined the Facebook group at birth as we do a podcast dot com slash community. And if you want to check out another. Highly suggest that episode can draw. Where she goes about. Birthing her twins vaginally and unmedicated after lots of add. Now for the next episode, I had the opportunity to interview Angela Roberts and she comes on and shares her journey of conception with stage four endometriosis. She also goes into more detail. Of the health issues that arise during her program. That led her to. Micro premier. Just 24 weeks. Making it to where? Her baby in the nick. In the hard part is this was right at the beginning of the. Don't hesitate to tune in. All right. Bye for now.