Birth As We Know It ™️-Birth Stories and Experiences

67-Elliott Leslie-Miscarriage-2 Cesarean Births-Bicornuate Uterus-Breech-Preemie-Adelaide & Brennan

• Episode 67

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In this episode, Elliott shares her two preemie birth stories of her daughter Adelaide and her son Brennan. She talks about how being a midwife was both a pro and a con while pregnant and how she learned about her special bicornuate (heart-shaped) uterus. 

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Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.

If you like this episode tune into episode 51- Rachelle Samia- 2 Vaginal Births-Uterus Didelphys-NICU-Breech-Wildflower Birthing Services

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Intro:

Welcome to birth as we Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiana Nissenbaum. I have experienced birth as a Dula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth state.

Disclaimer:

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your license provider.

Kiona:

Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to remind you that you are part of the BAWKI community and I would love to see you in the Birth As We Know It Podcast Facebook Group. You can request to join by going to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community. The reason I created this Facebook group is for exactly that to have a community. This is a place where you can ask all of your questions, talk about the podcast and more. So I would really love to see you there. In today's episode, we will be speaking with Elliott Leslie, she talks about having Bicornuate Uterus, which is also known as a heart shaped uterus with a septum in between. So if you find today's episode interesting, I highly suggest you check out episode 51 with Rachelle Samia. In that episode, Rachelle talks about what it's like to find out that she has Uterus Didelphys, which means she has to completely separate uterus. So tune in to that one next. All right. Let's get into this episode. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It Podcast Today I am super excited to have on an old friend named Elliot Leslie, who is a licensed midwife in Washington State and practices at Wellspring Midwifery with her. midwifery partner, Liz Faye. Today we are going to be talking about the birth of her kiddos let's just go ahead and get into it. So welcome, Elliott. Thanks for coming on today.

Elliott:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Kiona:

I am super excited to dive into this. We have actually, I did a little bit of the math we've been trying to connect for about a year,

Elliott:

yeah. I right. because when you first kind of invited me on, it's. I was still pregnant with Brennan,who I'm going to talk about today. And I was like, Oh, great. I'll just. Yeah, we'll talk about Adelaide, the older kid. And then I went into labor really, really early with Brennan and life got crazy from there. And so then it's been, you know, a little while since we've been able to connect. And so yeah, that's, that's the reason why.

Kiona:

yeah. And that's okay.

Elliott:

Yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

Life happens,

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

right?

Elliott:

Totally. Yeah,

Kiona:

Yeah. So let's just go ahead and dive right in and let's have you tell us a little bit about your journey with you and your husband and when you decided to conceive and what came forth from there.

Elliott:

My husband, Ben and I, we met when working at a restaurant and decided that, we were definitely interested in having kids earlier rather than later. But I was in the middle of midwifery school, which it's really hard to get pregnant and have a baby in midwifery school because I was on call 24 seven at that point, just about so I finished midwifery school, I opened my business and we, were pregnant right when I knew, you know, when we were working together and we had a loss at that time. So I had a miscarriage, an early miscarriage. And then we got pregnant pretty soon after that and had our eldest in January 2021, and then a little while after that got pregnant and had the second one.

Kiona:

Getting pregnant in midwifery school is super challenging. I do know a couple of other people who were students that tried to get pregnant in midwifery school. And it's just so hard because of the lifestyle of being on call.

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

Like you can do as much tracking of ovulation and everything and it could be your time. And then they're like, like you got to go to a birth

Elliott:

Totally. Yeah, yeah. And you know, it was challenging being pregnant as a midwife as I am currently with my own practice and everything, but it was more challenging when I was a student. And I think for a lot of people, like the amount of work that it is to be a student midwife is really intense. I mean, it was like 60, 70 hours a week with school work and then all of the midwifery work. And I just thought, I'm not sure how I fit in and like having a baby and that so I, pushed my journey into parenthood off a couple of years because I just didn't feel like I could do it, in midwifery school. But it's a wild, difficult job and it's a difficult thing to be a student midwife to really. So.

Kiona:

right? Yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah. So do you want to briefly share anything about Adelaide's birth

Elliott:

yeah. I mean I could a little bit because the background I think is helpful. I mean her birth was also interesting and unusual because she was born early as well. So both of my kids were born really early Adelaide was born at 35 weeks and six days. So, knew that history going in to getting pregnant with the second time. So my water broke at 35 and six and that kind of classic movie kind of way before contractions started and I was like standing in the bathroom at 5 a.m. and it was like a gallon of water, you know, That's what it felt like. It was just giant all over the floor. And, you know, because I was a midwife at the time, I knew, okay, I've got a pre-term baby. I know I have to go to the hospital to have her because I was planning a homebirth. And the other piece that's similar about Adelaide is that both my kids were breech, so they

Kiona:

Mm.

Elliott:

are both breech, preterm births. So I knew when my water broke with Adelaide that I was going in for a C-section because she was both breech and pre-term. And so vaginal births with breech babies are outside of the range of normal in this area to have a vaginal breech birth, but still a possibility. I was planning a breech homebirth with Adelaide because she wouldn't turn but when my water broke and she was pre-term and breech, I knew I was just going in for a caesarean. So of course that whole history informed my second birth because I know as a midwife that, you know, I'm more likely to have a preterm birth next time. And then I was also more likely to have a breech birth

Kiona:

Yeah, you went in having some information because you were a student, so you kind of knew what to expect, you knew what symptoms that were different, basically you knew what symptoms to look out for.

Elliott:

Mm.

Kiona:

how did being a student midwife and having that information impact the decisions you were making throughout your pregnancies?

Elliott:

Oh my goodness. it's a double edged sword, because for both of them during the especially during the birth process and early postpartum, I was really thankful that I had all of this information as a midwife because I understood what was going to happen. I understood like the process of a C-section and other things. And also when you have all of that information, the whole pregnancy for both of them was thinking, I know that this can go wrong and this can go wrong and that can go wrong. And sometimes, like having all that information is terrifying, frankly, you know, and anxiety producing for sure. So it's a double edged sword. Absolutely.

Kiona:

Yeah, yeah, I can attest to that. And saying that I had similar experience when I was pregnant with my youngest, specifically, like I knew a little bit about birth. I was already a birth doula with Kairo my second,

Elliott:

Mhm.

Kiona:

but with my youngest I was like, Oh my God, I'm experiencing all these things like I know X, Y and Z. And then I was also still supporting other people, like throughout their labors, births, and stuff

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

was happening with them. And, and it was hard for me. I don't know if you experienced this, and I would love to know if you did when you were pregnant, were people around you having losses and if they were, how did that impact you? Because when I was pregnant with my youngest, it seemed like everybody was that was around was like, Oh, yes, I'm pregnant, too. Like, this is so exciting. And then they would have a loss and I didn't. And I felt a little bit guilty, even though it was out of my control,

Elliott:

mm.

Kiona:

you

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

know. Did you experience that at all.

Elliott:

Yeah I definitely did. And I mean even Even now, right. Even when I'm not pregnant. But to have had some of those experiences, I feel a different level. of sympathy, for sure. Yeah. I remember really clearly when you and I were working together as students that I had experienced a loss already and then was pregnant with Adelaide while we were working together. I think that you were still there at that point

Kiona:

mm

Elliott:

and then we had someone who had a loss and came in. You know, as a just kind of a wrap up visit, right? Not necessarily a clinical one, but as a just kind of a wrap up midwifery visit that were so good at to help support them emotionally and all of those things. And it was extremely difficult for me to be in the room. Right, having had a loss fairly recently just a couple of months ago, and then also being pregnant early on, not knowing if I was going to have a loss and then having this person there, it's so intense. It's so intense to be pregnant working with pregnant people and also beautiful. You know,

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

I remember when I was also a student and was about 18 weeks along or so, and I was feeling movement and it was the first baby I had caught while like feeling movement in your own body and then, you know, catching a baby, helping a baby be born. And I remember sitting there doing the newborn exam and that baby was moving their their feet in their arms, everything. Right. And and, you know, doing the newborn exam. And I can feel my own baby inside. It was just so I mean how gorgeous, you know. Yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

Yeah. Just so many emotions like that are in that moment and that observation of knowing that the baby that's moving inside your body is doing similar things to the baby that you're physically touching

Elliott:

Yes,

Kiona:

and like watching and knowing that there is a human inside you and this is what the end result will be. You

Elliott:

I.

Kiona:

know, the hope

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

is that the end result will be that you have this baby on the outside kicking around and

Elliott:

Right.

Kiona:

it's so insane.

Elliott:

It's so insane. I still, you know, having seen and helped people and witnessed and, held space for over hundreds of births, And it's a miracle every single time. And I feel that way. You know, I go to a birth even though I've seen hundreds at this point, and I'm like that that was miraculous, you know? It really is. Yeah. Wild.

Kiona:

Yeah, it really is. And I think the hard part about practicing as a provider is that constant tug and pull of joy and terror,

Elliott:

Mhm.

Kiona:

you know,

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

of like knowing that you're literally walking the line in. This sounds really intense, but this is how I felt when I was a student was you're walking the line of life and death like you truly are at that moment, and you're doing all the things that you're trained to do to catch, which direction you're going on that path.

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

Right?

Elliott:

yeah

Kiona:

So what's going to inform you of which way this is going and how can we steer it towards the life path

Elliott:

right.

Kiona:

versus the not life path?

Elliott:

Yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

it's just crazy.It's crazy to think about. But let's go ahead and dive into the birth of Brennan, tell us all the details. First, let's talk about the conception and how was that process with finding out? How did you feel all of those things?

Elliott:

yeah. We were yes. Definitely planning and were very excited, when we got pregnant and I was also a little bit surprised in a way because I was gosh 37 I think at that point I had Adelaide when I was 35 or 36 something, you know, something like that. So I was a little surprised to have gotten pregnant so easily, honestly. with both of them. But I was really happy that I did,in part because there are minor risks if you're over the age of 35. I mean, you and I know that a lot of that is a little overblown. But I did want to have a second and maybe even a third, I wanted to do that before I was 40. So I was kind of like, let's, kind of hurry. I mean, you know, it's different having a baby when you're 37 than like 44. So I was happy that I got pregnant pretty quickly after, as we were ready to get pregnant with Brennan. pregnancy was quite easy, but I had an extra ultrasounds and things because I have what's called a bicornuate uterus. So I don't, I don't think I mentioned before when I was talking about the birth Adelaide.

Kiona:

You did not tell

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Tell us about that.

Elliott:

Yeah. So when I was pregnant with Adelaide after I think of like the nine week ultrasound, they discover it that I have what they thought was a septum, a uterine septum. So like a wall down the middle of your uterus So I had multiple ultrasounds to kind of watch it. through the whole pregnancy they thought it was a septum, which is a little bit different than a bicornuate uterus, a bicornuate uterus. is a heart shaped uterus. So the whole thing is shaped like a heart. And so there is a little bit of that wall, but the whole thing is, you know, shaped heart shaped instead of just like a wall down the centre of it. so I had a few ultrasounds with Adelaide to watch. The septum. And then there's a concern about where is the placenta going to implant when you have a septum, because if it implants on that wall, then it might not be as vascular as you might not get as good, blood flow and nutrition and oxygen to the baby. So where's the placenta going to be? And then the other thing to consider with, uterus that's differently shaped is that the baby can get into a weird position and you can't move them. An so that's what happened with both of them, is that they were breech so shut down and couldn't be moved. Basically, they didn't want to do an ECV with Adelaide, a lot of people have a breach, baby. They'll try to help turn the baby on the outside. But they didn't want to do that with Adelaide's because a little bit of my placenta was on the septum or on the wall and they're worried that it would come off, that it would abrupt if they tried to move the baby on the outside So they didn't want to do that. So, so when I got pregnant with Brennan, I knew, okay, I've got this. Oh, this is the other thing with Adelaide is that, on ultrasound they all thought that I had a septum so just that wall. But when they do a caesarean they don't always do this but they most often do, which is not something I knew until I had had a cesarean myself, is that they take your whole uterus out of your body, which for people who are listening, you can request that they don't do that, but they often do because it's easier potentially for them to do the repair and all that. But so they took my whole uterus out of my body and they said, well, I was you know, they're like on the table. Oh, it's actually a by cornea uterus. You have a heart shape uterus. But they wouldn't have even known if they hadn't taken it out of my body, which is so weird. And I have a picture of it. know, they're like, Do you want a picture? Yeah, Yeah. Because of course they know I'm a midwife. I'm like, Yes, I absolutely do you know about that? I would love it. they took a picture of it. And then, you know, I had the baby that first caesarean. and Ben, my partner was like, Oh, do you want to see it? And I was like, Of course, right. I'm a midwife. I you know, they're like stitching me after this. But I was like, Yeah, of course I want to see it. And he shows me and I was like, Actually, I don't, not right now. Like

Kiona:

Wait.

Elliott:

that's

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

like,

Kiona:

So

Elliott:

yeah, like,

Kiona:

as you are still open getting

Elliott:

yes.

Kiona:

fixed stuff, he's like, Hey, you want to see your uterus?

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Oh, wow.

Elliott:

Because, because he knows it like into that stuff.

Kiona:

Right,

Elliott:

And I was like, Yeah, I totally do. This is so cool. And then I was like, He shows me. I was like, Oh, actually, nope, I don't actually want to see that right now because that's still like outside of my body, like

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

too much to it. Yeah,

Kiona:

That's like, how it looks, right this moment.

Elliott:

right. Yeah. Like, okay, I can't know. Yeah, too much. But

Kiona:

Oh,

Elliott:

anyways.

Kiona:

that's so cool.

Elliott:

Yeah, I'll send you the pics if you want to see

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

it.

Kiona:

I totally want to see.

Elliott:

Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

We're all like yes. We don't see it. Yeah. So Yeah. But anyway, so we knew that I had this heart shaped uterus. I know that I have a higher chance when I'm pregnant with my second Brennan of having both a preterm birth and a breech birth and all the other things that can go with along with having a bicornuate uterus, you know, fetal growth restriction, like the baby's too small for placenta implants improperly laid that kind of stuff. yeah. So I said, Oh, yes, I was really excited to be pregnant. And now that I talk about, I was like very anxious also about how it was all going to go.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah. So you just unpacked a lot just then?

Elliott:

So I was like, Oh, we'll just talk about the second one. The first ones, no big

Kiona:

No.

Elliott:

deal.

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

But it was a

Kiona:

I.

Elliott:

lot. Yeah,

Kiona:

Yeah, it was a lot. And I love it. And I honestly am a true believer that it's really hard to talk about one birth, especially if it's a subsequent birth without talking about the others. So

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

I love

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

this. And we're just

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

going to be talking about both.

Elliott:

Okay. Yes. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

Okay, cool.

Kiona:

which is great. so I guess one question that I have is the bicornuate uterus with that, is there a higher possibility that you will implant on a specific side, or is it equivalent?

Elliott:

So with the type that I have, I think it's equivalent, but I'm not totally sure. There's even uteri. Delphi, I think is how you say

Kiona:

Mm.

Elliott:

it. Where? Right

Kiona:

Uterine

Elliott:

where.

Kiona:

didelphys. Yeah.

Elliott:

Yes. Yeah. So this is like a kind of milder case of that. So. Right. In those cases when there's like two uteruses, you know,

Kiona:

Mm

Elliott:

or something

Kiona:

hmm.

Elliott:

then or two like that, there's a full wall between the two, then maybe there's more likelihood to implant up one side. But I think I'm not sure for mine, but they nobody ever said anything about it because the line was pretty well in the center.

Kiona:

Yeah. when you mentioned your condition, it' called bicornuate uterus, I thought about Rochelle Samia, who is episode 51. She has uterus didelphys and

Elliott:

Oh,

Kiona:

so I learned about uterus didelphys from her and so that's why I asked that question is because she was talking to me about the details of that. So yeah, that's so interesting to me. And I love learning stuff like this, but with all of that info, let's go ahead and dive into Brennan's birth. So when you got pregnant with Brennan, you were excited but also anxious because you kind of knew what was going to happen when you got pregnant with him. Did you automatically assume that you were going to have a cesarean or did you plan other routes?

Elliott:

No, I was planning a home. VBAC. I was like, well, try, you know, And my midwife was my business partner and very good friend to Liz Fay that, you know, we own our business, and we were planning to do a VBAC at home, with knowing that that might not happen. And then, yeah, I mean, through the pregnancy we did, a lot of ultrasounds to make sure that the baby was growing well and also to, like, check out where the placenta was going and everything. Brennan was breech from like the moment, you know, just was never, ever head down. Just like that's not how they fit in my uterus. Well, So starting at 24 weeks, they started to do things to try to get them to turn, even though I knew, like, potentially that's the way the babies need to be in my uterus to fit. And, if that's the way they need to be, then that's the way they need to be. But I knew if I was having another breech birth that, you know, I probably wasn't going to do a breech VBAC at home At term, I was like, I don't I don't know. Some people would, but I think I wasn't going to.

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Elliott:

So I was trying to get him to turn doing other things like moxibustion and acupuncture and all that. I tried to do a bunch of stuff like supplements that might reduce the likelihood of water breaking early of prom that were like not really evidence based, but, you know, was like a little bit of extra fish oil, a little extra vitamin C, nothing harmful. And I was like, Yep, I am going to take extra protein shakes like anything that was like that. That wasn't going to hurt anything. I was like doing all of that, all of the things to try to get him to turn ultrasounding all the time. Because I have an ultrasound at work because I guess he still breech. He's still breech. Yep, yep. Always breech. Always breech. was never growth restricted so he grew well and then I was just like, okay, he's going to be breech. Probably he's not going to turn, but maybe he's still will and still going to do other things, going to acupuncture twice a week. If he's breech, then my goal was to make it to 34 weeks because the other one was 35 and six and anything can happen. Of course, but at 34 weeks, they're pretty fine. they might have a little jaundice. They may have to stay in the hospital for a little bit. It might be difficult to feed them, maybe, but like, they're fine. They're not like NICU early, early, baby. So I was really just like, as long as I can make it to 34 weeks, you know? But I didn't.

Kiona:

Yeah. So how did that happen? Tell us about the details of when you realized that. Oh, Brennan's coming now.

Elliott:

it was July 23rd last year, July 23rd. And it was my mother in law's birthday party. So we are hosting a birthday party for her at our house. We had like 15 people at our house I had been kind of uncomfortable most of the day, but I was often uncomfortable because beach babies don't fit that great I mean, they did. That's how they needed it to be in my body. But it's more uncomfortable in your body because you just have a big head up underneath your ribs So it would be uncomfortable day. But I thought, oh, I'm, you know, maybe he didn't drink enough water. I'm up and moving around and, you know, doing all this stuff. Then we, sat down to eat and I was like, Oh, wait, no, these are time-able contractions, I'm pretty sure, I told Ben I kind of whispered to him. I said, I'm just going to go lay down, drink some water, because that's what you tell people do, right? Drink a bunch of water, maybe take a bath or shower, try to calm that down. I took a bunch of cramp bark. You know, because if it's like Braxton Hicks, all of those things will help it, right? And then I was just sitting there and I was like, No. And I started and I was timing them and they were like every 3 minutes at this point really, like it was like every 5 minutes. Then pretty soon it was like every three or 4 minutes. And wasn't that long that I was sitting there just like talking louder, that they were getting closer together. So so then I called Liz, my business partner, and was like, I think I'm having pre-term labor. I think I'm in labor, and we're kind of talking on the phone. I was like, Oh, yeah, I definitely I'm like, I can tell when's coming right now, And yet here's the peak of it and now it's coming down. And I bet if I timed it, it would be another three or 4 minutes and I'd have another one. So we went to the hospital. Ben and I left and my toddler at that point was two and she went to stay with family and that's the other thing about being a midwife is like, I know what's happening. Like, as soon as I knew I was having time of contractions, I knew I maybe am going to be able to keep them in for a couple of days, but maybe not till I'm just going to have another cesarean and this baby's going to be in the NICU for a long time and like I know all the things both was helpful for me because I knew what the path was and also like immediately was really, you know, scary and all of that. So

Kiona:

And so when you got to the hospital what happened.

Elliott:

They put me in triage for a little while, and I had Ben, my husband, and then Liz, my business partner and co-midwife and very good friend, came too and they put me in triage for a while to assess if I was really having progressive Labour, even though I was like, I am a midwife and I am having progressive labour and you can see it on the monitor. But they went to make sure my cervix was changing before they took the next steps, including admit. So after they assess that my cervix, yes is dilating, because I'm having these contractions, they gave me a shot that they give to people to help baby's lungs mature called Betamethasone. So they gave me that in my glute in, my butt. And that shot hurts really bad. I was so surprised as And so that shot works the best after you've had it for 24 hours to help the baby's lungs mature. So at this point, I'm like, please, like, let's try to hold this off for 24 hours or And then they admitted me, right, and put me in a room and they put me on magnesium sulfate, which just helps to protect babies brains when they're born really early. it makes you feel really crappy. it gives you like, anxiety and you feel like hot, kind of like you're on fire a little bit. And then once you're on magnesium, you're a fall risk. So you can't get out of bed at all. Even to go to the bathroom. They would bring me a bedside commode and I would sit on to go to the bathroom And then this was, you know, 2023. So not deep COVID times, but they were doing COVID test still. And I had a now I know it was a false positive COVID test. So they thought that I had COVID. They did many, many tests over until I had the baby. And rest of them came back negative. But they thought that I had COVID so they weren't coming in the room. And when they did, they all but they were put on like a huge not just like an N95, it was like a like an astronaut suits.

Kiona:

mm. Like the whole hazmat thing.

Elliott:

like a whole hazmat thing. Yeah,

Kiona:

Mm

Elliott:

Yeah. So I was in bed in labour On magnesium can't get out of bed and then I because I knew this baby was going to the NICU. I told my husband to sleep because I was like, You have to be ready to be able to go there. So I just made him sleep. And then, they were trying to like, hold off as to giving me the cesarean as long as they could. Right. With Adelaide, they just gave me a caesarean right away because she was 35 and six and it's like you're in labor, we don't have a breech baby, like hurry, we're going to do a caesarean. But they're trying to hold off as long as they could in case, in case they could hold my labour off for a day or something. But it didn't work at all. I just kept having like the same frequency of contractions every couple 3 minutes or something. so eventually I was like eight centimetres and so like, quick, quick, give her an epidural, you know, because they're going to give me a caesarean. So they gave me an epidural real quick and. Oh And as I'm telling all this, I just feel like this is the craziest story. Of course, everyone's birth is wild, you know, But the epidural didn't work. So I felt some of my caesarean that was crazy. And they, like they said that it didn't work because sometimes when people are that early, the that I didn't know this but the epidural space like in your spine where it goes is bigger than usual. Then like when you have a term baby it like changes how big the spaces in your spine. and I had no idea. So they gave it to me and they had placed it correctly. Like sometimes it's like not placed correctly or something, but they placed it correctly. It's just that they had to like keep giving me more. because it wasn't working, you know, and they do like this pinch test and they're like, Can you feel this? I'm like, Yes, yes. They're like, Are you sure? And I'm like, Yes, So as soon as the baby was out, they gave me fentanyl because I was like in extreme pain during the caesarean.

Kiona:

did they offer you to be put to sleep?

Elliott:

No they didn't no.

Kiona:

If they did, what would you have done, do you think?

Elliott:

I wouldn't have done, I would have stayed awake. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah, because that's my thought. Because I kind of feel like that's what you would say. Because as a midwife or birth worker, like, you want to be present as much as possible. So you fought through the pain

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

to be present

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

during your birth. Do you feel that

Elliott:

Okay.

Kiona:

that potentially added trauma to your experience?

Elliott:

Potentially. Yeah. I mean the, sensations of having a caesarean even when the epidural is working are really. And I've never had a vaginal birth you know. And I see lots of them and I know how intense those are from having witnessed them and held space for people that are doing that, having a vaginal birth. But there's a lot of weird tugging when there's a caesarean. and the other thing, it's just so because there's a drape and you can't see what they're doing right. And they like, shaved you and I know for a cesarean they usually like wash inside your vagina while you're,

Kiona:

mm

Elliott:

you

Kiona:

mm.

Elliott:

know, can't see and they don't tell you. I

Kiona:

I

Elliott:

think

Kiona:

didn't even

Elliott:

so

Kiona:

know that.

Elliott:

They did for me. And I think I think that that's standard practice. But of course, I didn't know this either until after I had had a caesarean.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting to think about because, when people go in expecting a cesarean, they know they're going in for surgery.

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

and for me, the washing of the vagina seems unnecessary, but there may be a reason. you know, getting the vaginal microbiome on the baby when they're born, like do they keep that cloth and rub the baby with it? Is that what they're doing or are they just cleaning the area? You know what I mean? Like, is there a purpose to it?

Elliott:

I think that the purpose is. Yeah. Like cleaning the area. And I. I would have to research it to make sure if this is, like, really what usually happened. I think it. I think it's standard practice. Not with iodine, but with something like. Like that. Like chlorhexidine, maybe, or something.

Kiona:

Interesting. Okay. I would be curious in finding out if that is standard practice, because I

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

have not heard that before in someone like I've talked to and spoken to people both on the podcast as well as just like out in regular life who have had caesareans before. But I feel like, you know, a lot of information because you are a researcher and I feel like you are the type of person that's like, okay, this happened. I'm going to obviously want my records. I want to see what's going on. What does this mean? I don't know this. And then you research it because that's how you are and you want to know and you want to learn. You're also a practicing midwife, you know,

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

So you have the sources of where you can research these things with getting more information than the general public.

Elliott:

Totally.

Kiona:

So I feel like a lot of people I mean, I'm just saying this as an umbrella kind of statement as I don't think a lot of people dive that deep into it, you

Elliott:

Oh,

Kiona:

know,

Elliott:

yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

So I'm super curious about it. But yeah, that's just one part of this story, you know?

Elliott:

Yea, totally. Yeah. I think that's probably true that I mean, potentially part of the way I cope just generally, it's like, let me learn everything that I can. I I just wanna understand it more? Like, why did they take my uterus out? after a while, I was like, Huh, why would they have to do that? They already got the baby out through the whole through the incision. Why did they take the uterus out like that? Seems so bizarre because they're taking it out through, like, a really small little incision and. Right. and it's because it's easier them to stitch it up. Right? So

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

I then had some people who have had planned caesareans for various reasons and they, wanted to create a birth plan and so they'll, write down some of the things they're interested in. And I'll mention that, they can request to not have their uterus exteriorized is what it's called, because it often creates a lot of nausea for people because you just had this organ pulled out of your body and then they're like really nauseous, postpartum. I mean, of course we all want the surgeon to do a, job setting us up. But if it's just because it's easier to just kind of figure it out, you know,

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

just leave it in there and figure it out if you can.

Kiona:

Mm.

Elliott:

The other thing sometimes they do a caesareans is they strap your arms down. Have you heard that. Has anyone ever said that. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. Mm. I've seen it personally as a doula and I have had people talk about that kind of being traumatizing, like adding some trauma to the experience because they want to hold their baby afterwards as well. And they have to ask permission for someone to unstrap their arms,

Elliott:

yeah. And I, told them they couldn't do that to me because I was. Because it's also. Yeah. That's just. I mean, that's kind of terrifying, you know, to have someone strap you down, you are already numb and can't move. You can't see anything below your chest because there's this drape and they're going to strap your arms down. It's like I mean, it sounds torturous, right, I told them they couldn't basically, because they just don't want you to move your arms too much around because they have IVs and blood pressure cuffs and all that kind of stuff. And I think that's the only reason.

Kiona:

And a sterile field. But beyond the drape. in my mind, I'm thinking that that's done because of the moments where people do have extreme reactions. Right. there's a spectrum always on everything that there's people that are totally fine, don't feel anything. They don't mind it any anything. That's standard protocol. But then there's people that are well aware, feel everything and are kind of having this freak out moment of like, what the heck out of body experience kind of thing. And then their body just reacts. So it's really hard to find out where you lie in that spectrum if you've never experienced it before.

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

And so this is also your second cesarean.

Elliott:

Right, yeah.

Kiona:

And so you had the experience of having been numb with Adelaide

Elliott:

Uh huh,

Kiona:

and then with Brennan, you felt things.

Elliott:

yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

MM

Elliott:

yeah, that part was you asked earlier if it potentially added to the trauma and I do think it did. Just because it was so such a foreign kind of yucky experience. And then of course I'm feeling all of this and knowing that my baby I don't necessarily think that they're going to die, but I mean, that's always a possibility. And also with the 30 weeker, but that they could be really, really not doing well. Right. And so I'm like I all these like painful sensations in my own body. And I'm so worried about the baby, so worried about him. it was really hard. Yeah. That, peace was hard.

Kiona:

Yeah. So let's go forward into hearing more about after he was born.

Elliott:

So he weighed 3 lbs, six ounces, and I think he was. 15 and a half long, he's tiny. He's a tiny £3, six ounces, Right? He came out crying. He totally came out crying. And I don't know. I actually don't know if I know the APGAR's because he came out and like, cried right away. But then they immediately, you know, they didn't intubate, but they put him on CPAP because his lungs were too sticky to be able to keep breathing. So and I knew that that's, you know, what they were going to do. I saw him for just a second, because they held him up. And I mean, he looks very tiny and very premature and then they took him to the NICU. So I didn't get to hold him, it just he wasn't doing okay with Adelaide. I did. I got to hold her right away, you know, the caesarean. But I knew I wasn't going to be able to get to all them or even see him for a while. Then I would have to go to postpartum recovery. then he went to the NICU, and Ben my husband went there and sent me a couple of pictures, you know, when he could. he had CPAP, which is just like keeps his lungs open. at one point they intubated him just to give him some surfactant which helps their lungs to mature. So, when I first saw him I think he had seven various cords. Right. So there's the C pap and then there's a tube to feed him down his mouth. It's called an O.G. tube. A couple IV's a blood pressure cuff for pulse ox to see if he's oxygenating. Well, yeah. And so, he did as expected, but it's like, in those first early days I could hold him. I was able to hold him quite a bit, but only kind of at prescribed times because they try to imitate the womb as much as possible. So keep it really dark. Keep the fuss to a real minimum. So it was every 3 hours they would change his diaper and then start the feeding process through the tube. And so when they did that, then I could hold him because they're already kind of doing stuff. And so then I would hold him for the next 3 hours and then they would change his diaper again. But then I would have to pump so they wouldn't hold him for that 3 hours. I would do like every other 3 hours throughout the, you know, weeks or whatever.

Kiona:

How long was Brennan in the NICU?

Elliott:

five weeks. They thought they told me it would be ten, but we got him out in five weeks he got off the CPAP, the breathing support after two weeks I think, which is I think pretty typical. But of course they monitor him and his heart rate would go down and his oxygen saturation would go down and so they would come in and like they never had to do CPR or anything, but would happen all the time and the alarms would go off and they would come in and like fuss with him, wake him up because he's like stopped breathing, basically. But they like monitoring him. So,

Kiona:

once you guys were able to go home, how did that look like? How was it different compared to when he brought Adelaide home, if at all?

Elliott:

yeah, no, it definitely was. I mean, in part because we had a toddler And then I think the only other thing that was quite different is because we brought him home and he would have been 35 weeks like, a month before he was supposed to be born. And we brought him home right. And so at 35 weeks, he had this really long newborn phase. So he was like, not behind. But it was normal for him to be having a newborn phase, for like two or three months. So he just like did the newborn thing for like longer the other babies would have if they're like term babies But he's like caught up in all the ways now.

Kiona:

Awesome. And you mentioned pumping. Did you end up breastfeeding either of them, Adelaide or Brennan?

Elliott:

Both of them. Yeah, both of them. And he actually did really well. that's really why we got him out so early is because, I was just there all the time and, like, skin to skin and breastfeeding he was like breastfeeding at 34 weeks gestatinally, people were pretty. impressed. But I mean, it's also because I'm a midwife and I've already breastfed a baby and I had all this milk and I, like, knew, had all these resources and everything. and I had the time to be there all the time. And not all parents have the time to do that, have that luxury. So I was lucky in a lot of those ways.

Kiona:

Yeah. And, I mean, let's not discredit the fact that you fought for that.

Elliott:

Hmm.

Kiona:

That sounds like a very challenging place to be

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

as filling in all your roles, you know, because I'm imagining Adelaide's like, Where's Mommy?

Elliott:

totally.

Kiona:

And also pushing through to utilise your resources in that time because it's so I don't want to say easy but People can so easily look at the negative side of things in that process and struggle.

Elliott:

Mm

Kiona:

And I just hear you telling me that you fought for everything that you received. You fought your best to try to hold him in for more than 24 hours. You fought your best to stay awake and have agency in the decisions that you made throughout your cesarean with him. And, did your research between pregnancies to know, hey, I want my uterus to stay in my body this time, I don't want my arms strapped down. Just let me peek at him and then you're ready, you know, set in bed up and saying, all right, this is what is going to happen. You're going to go with Brennan. I'm going to be here doing the thing. I'll see you when I see. You know,

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

you're. I hear you saying that you're fighting for them is what I'm basically trying to say. And I don't want you to discredit that because you're just

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

coasting over it. Coasting

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

over?

Elliott:

So thank you. That's very sweet of you to say. Yeah,

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

yeah,

Elliott:

yeah. Thanks.

Kiona:

yeah.

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

And breastfeeding during the time of NICU. From what I've heard from other parents, it's not an easy thing to do.

Elliott:

yeah,

Kiona:

So

Elliott:

yeah. It's not. It's

Kiona:

good job.

Elliott:

true. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, It's

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

really being in the nick. You is. I was so ready to get out of there, and be hot and, like, you kind of mentioned, be home with both my kids because it was really, really hard to, not be seeing my eldest one as much. And what Ben and I did is we I so I would do the daytime in the NICU for, about 12 hours or so, ten, 12 hours. And then they would come home and spend the evening and sleep with the toddler while Ben's up to the hospital. So we like, almost every day we're like barely saw each other because I was like, I want to just be at the hospital and be breastfeeding. Brennan And getting him out of there and giving him snuggles because he just is otherwise like sleeping in the box, you know what I mean?

Kiona:

mm

Elliott:

It's sad, but I also have this beautiful kid at home that is like he needs my attention too. So it's just it was really hard to figure out the schedule of it was so and I was very worried, motivated to get him home so I could just snuggle them both at

Kiona:

mm

Elliott:

once.

Kiona:

mm mm.

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. That picture you sent me of you snuggling both your kiddos in the chair.

Elliott:

Oh, yeah.

Kiona:

I saw it and it melted my heart. Oh,

Elliott:

Oh,

Kiona:

my gosh.

Elliott:

that's a

Kiona:

So whoever is listening, if you do want to see that, you'll have to go to my website and check that out, because it's adorable. My heartstrings.

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

I was like, Oh,

Elliott:

So, you

Kiona:

immediate.

Elliott:

know.

Kiona:

Like, oh, gosh, yes. So it's so adorable. let's actually talk about what that was like to bring Brennan home. how was Adelaide

Elliott:

She was great. She was super good. She's just like, loved him, you know, from the very beginning and is very sweet and did a lot of we just did a lot of like all cuddling together and everything. I mean there was transitional moments because she's two and a half, you know, at the time. but I think was also just very happy that I was home more, you know. So that part went really great.

Kiona:

Oh, awesome. That's so great. So how was your postpartum for you when you got home? How was your body from recovering from your caesarean and you know, how was your pumping and your sleep Like how was all of that for you?

Elliott:

the pumping and the feeding and that all was good. And I love, you know, had plenty of milk and stuff, so that's great. Even so early, you know, at 30 weeks or whatever. yeah. I mean, recovering from a cesarean is not fun and it's not fun having to like be walking the halls of the hospital, you know, who's kind of far from at the hospital I was at. That's kind of far from the entrance to, like, walk all the way up there. And so I'm sure my healing would have been a lot quicker if I could rest more. But I was just very, you know, needed to be with the babies. So, but once I was home, you know, at that point, then five weeks and I was, I was pretty, pretty good at that point. But yeah, yeah, that's another thing that the reason that I went to the hospital that I went to is because not all hospitals. Can you sleep in the room with the baby, which I just can't even imagine. speaking of like, the benefits of being a midwife, I knew that I could sleep in the room in that NICU? So that's why I went there and there's probably others, but I just went there because I knew that we'd be able to sleep there. Otherwise you'd have to like, go home. And you know what I mean? Instead of being able to stay the night. So.

Kiona:

Yeah. That's a great benefit. And I've talked to a couple of people who did not have that experience where they weren't able to stay in the room. And, you know, a few people that I talked to were also having babies at the height of COVID and not being able to stay in the room because of that, even if it used to be an option. there's so many moving parts. And I just I'm I'm so thankful that you shared your stories with me because I think that it's really important for listeners to hear that even as a midwife with training and everything you are learning about your body and the way that your body works is still just as different from someone who isn't a midwife. You know what I mean? Like you have all of this information,

Elliott:

Mm

Kiona:

you have all of these resources and you did the best that you could to get the births that you wanted. But your body was running the show and your babies were running the show.

Elliott:

Yeah, yeah.

Kiona:

So it's it's I just think that you're awesome

Elliott:

Oh,

Kiona:

for

Elliott:

that's so nice.

Kiona:

for for like pushing through and doing these

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

things. And I'm super thankful that you're sharing this with me. I learned so much and yeah. Is there anything else in particular that you want to share before I share my three final closing questions with you?

Elliott:

I don't think so. I appreciate you letting me tell you my story, you know, really. it's can be really healing for people to be able to, like, tell their stories,

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I love storytelling and I love hearing stories.

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

Like I said, I learn something every single time. So let's go ahead and start nearing the end of this. And I will ask you my three final closing questions. My first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth and postpartum?

Elliott:

Oh yeah. I don't know. I don't know that's and because and I probably should have thought about this one more, you know, but because I'm a midwife I'm like gosh, there are so many things to say. Right. But you know,

Kiona:

Mm

Elliott:

just coming off of telling my story, I feel like, one of the things I would say is plan as much as you want to plan to make yourself feel good? And then you still have to be really flexible because, if you're rigid about a birth plan, I think it's really, really hard when things change, right? When things shift because the baby decides they need to be put in the hospital or, something happens, or infant feeding doesn't go the way that the plan was. And it's really hard. So, yeah, I think there's just an element of being as flexible as you can. Yeah.

Kiona:

I think that's great advice because it's true. talk about what your preferences are, but be open to following the flow of what labor and birth and what your baby's telling you.

Elliott:

Mhm. Yeah. It's like it's the first one of the first steps in parenting even before the babies out is that their kids will help you be flexible for

Kiona:

100%

Elliott:

sure. 100

Kiona:

there, I can't even tell you how many things I feel like I'm never going to do that with my

Elliott:

Oh

Kiona:

kids.

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

And I'm like, Yeah, sure, go ahead. Whatever.

Elliott:

Yeah, totally. Oh it's fine.

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

Yeah. Yeah. You want chocolate at nine in the morning. Yeah, probably. That's fine. Yeah.

Kiona:

cool. Yeah. Why not

Elliott:

Why

Kiona:

just

Elliott:

not,

Kiona:

add

Elliott:

Right.

Kiona:

a blueberry to it? Yeah,

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

maybe.

Elliott:

exactly.

Kiona:

No.

Elliott:

That's great.

Kiona:

Okay. No

Elliott:

Okay,

Kiona:

blueberries.

Elliott:

exactly. Fine. Okay. But every day.

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

So another question I have is what is one resource that I can share with my listeners on your behalf?

Elliott:

Ooh. Oh, I have one. And there's so many. I mean, because I know, you know, so many of these

Kiona:

Mm

Elliott:

different ones and it's not actually a resource that I've used, but I think it's really important is perinatal support Washington

Kiona:

hmm. Mm

Elliott:

And they have what's called the warm line. So anyone who's, you know, pregnant early postpartum can call to talk to someone if they're just need to talk to someone or if they're experiencing postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety or postpartum psychosis. There's lots of different things. And, you know, they can help people like hook up with therapists that are specialists in the perinatal year. And I just I also just love that they have that warm line because sometimes people just are, you know, at home with the baby that's maybe they're crying or there's whatever is going on. Right. And they just like, I just need to talk to somebody real quick. Right. And I just love that they there's that like quick thing that can be helpful. even though the mental health support in this country is terrible and there should be a lot more resources. But I think that's a great resource. It's not enough, but it's something.

Kiona:

Yeah, No,

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

I agree. That actually makes me think I never asked you how your postpartum experience was with both your kiddos. How was it for you both times?

Elliott:

Um, so with my first I definitely had postpartum depression and definitely did not know it at the time, even though

Kiona:

Mm

Elliott:

I screened people for postpartum depression and

Kiona:

hmm.

Elliott:

you know all of that afterwards, as I was starting to feel a little bit better, I was like, Oh, oh, okay. I was, you know? yeah, there was just a lot going on at that time. And then with Brennan, it was it was just very it was sweet. There was a period of time, the first few weeks when I, when I brought Brennan home and they had Adelaide and Ben, my husband was home. And those those are the happiest weeks of my life ever.

Kiona:

mm mm

Elliott:

You know,

Kiona:

mm

Elliott:

it was really

Kiona:

mm mm.

Elliott:

I was just so thankful that they were both okay and they're both home and Yeah. So I think that I was very happy during those first few weeks. Yeah,

Kiona:

Yeah. That's. That's amazing. So after those first few weeks, did you think that you experienced any depression after that or was it kind of more like reality hit you and you had to kind of get back to business.

Elliott:

It's just like kind of reality and you know, it's like, when do I want to start working again? And, just the, the day to day of a new baby

Kiona:

Parenting.

Elliott:

and parenting

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

and whatever. Yeah, Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

But it was really quite blissful in those first few weeks. I was really happy. Ye. But

Kiona:

Mm.

Elliott:

then it just became normal and. And great, you know, like everything's great,

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

but. Yeah, more normal.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. I get that for sure. Yes. Oh, man. have you and Ben ever talk about his experience postpartum with his mental health,

Elliott:

I don't know if we've, like, kind of explicitly talked about it. I mean, I think he definitely, with Brennan being both of us kind of being stretched on both sides, trying to, you know, help both of our kids, was he was definitely it was very difficult for him to, you know, in his own way. But I think we're both in the moment, just like just get through it. Just get through it. Like, you know, keep going, keep going and get it. Like break the baby out of the NICU as soon as you can, you know, sort of things. We were very motivated. Yeah, I know. He was also like we were having a really sweet he was very happy when we were all home. Those first few weeks was really fun, was really sweet.

Kiona:

And that was the first time you guys got to see each other for more than an hour, maybe

Elliott:

yeah, yeah. Really.

Kiona:

for a long

Elliott:

Yeah,

Kiona:

time. Yeah.

Elliott:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

Well, hang on to that feeling of sweetness because it'll push you through

Elliott:

yeah.

Kiona:

life.

Elliott:

Totally. It's true.

Kiona:

You, if you could do that, you can do anything.

Elliott:

Yeah that's.

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

Yeah that's yeah totally. Yeah.

Kiona:

All right, So my last question is, if you can describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Elliott:

I think with Brennan I think I was pretty scared. Yeah. I would say that was, it was scary. I was mostly really scared for him because at 30 weeks that's really, early.

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

And then with Adelaide, I think maybe just surprising because

Kiona:

mm mm mm

Elliott:

I just really didn't expect my water to break and didn't know that this was, you know, the path and, but you know, honestly, I was scared at that time too, though, I'll be honest, because when your water breaks with a breech pre-term baby, there's a high chance of cord prolapse. and I had a Doppler, so the first thing I did actually was I was like, Ben, go get me the Doppler. And I was like, trying to find her in a heartbeat as soon as my water broke because I was worried about cord prolapse and worried

Kiona:

Mm

Elliott:

like, the whole time,

Kiona:

mm.

Elliott:

you know, that that something's going to happen. And they're both kind of scary, honestly. They're both kind of scary births.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. Because they happened before they were quote unquote supposed to. Right.

Elliott:

yeah, for sure, right?

Kiona:

And that's

Elliott:

Yeah.

Kiona:

a scary thing. And then as you know, like you mentioned before with the midwife, with knowing all the stuff,

Elliott:

Yep.

Kiona:

like if a normal person did not have education in midwifery or health at all, they would not have a Doppler to be able to check for a court for

Elliott:

I

Kiona:

less

Elliott:

know, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I don't know, sometimes I think it helped reduce my anxiety and sometimes it helped more because somebody else might not. They would know. Oh, it's not good that my water broke at 35 and six like, you know, with the. But like, I know that's not good. I'm definitely worried about the baby but they wouldn't know specifically about cord prolapse

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

and like, is the baby not breathing right this moment. You know, not in it.

Kiona:

Right.

Elliott:

So yeah,

Kiona:

All the things.

Elliott:

all

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

the things

Kiona:

totally. Totally. Well, Elliot, I am so, so, so thankful that you shared your stories with me today. I learned so much. I'm sure my listeners have as well. And I'm just thankful that you shared with me. So you're awesome.

Elliott:

Thank you for having me. And yeah, thank you for letting me share my story. I appreciate it.

Kiona:

Yeah,

Elliott:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kiona:

of

Elliott:

It's

Kiona:

course.

Elliott:

good to talk to you.

Kiona:

It's good to talk to you too.

Outro:

During this interview with Elliott. I had so much fun. It was amazing connecting with her again and being able to talk a little bit about midwifery as well as really hearing the details of her stories. Elliott, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today. I really appreciate you going deep and being vulnerable with us. If you enjoyed this episode, go check out episode 51 with Rochelle Samia, where she talks about figuring out that she had a uterus didelphys, which means she has two uterus. And hear about how that impacted her birthing process. Now, if you made it this far, you already know that you are part of the BAWKI community. I would really love to see you and the birth as we know it. Facebook Group. You can request to join by going to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community. And if you want to see the show notes for this episode or see the beautiful photos of Elliott and her babies, you can go to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/67. All right, friends, I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you for listening and I will talk to you again soon. Bye for now.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Kiona Nessenbaum

Host

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