Birth As We Know It ™️-Birth Stories and Experiences

69-Nicole Bulow-Miscarriage-Bell's Palsy-2 Vaginal Births-Solfuel Wellness

• Episode 69

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In this episode, Nicole shares her experience with loss through miscarriage as well as diving into her two very different birth experiences with her son Baker and daughter Sophia. She goes into detail about how different it was for her to birth in the hospital and then chooses a last-minute homebirth during the prime time of the Covid-19 pandemic.

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Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

Don’t forget to check out episode 23-Samuel Munchrath-PARTNER-Vaginal Birth-Soren


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Intro:

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth state.

Disclaimer:

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your license provider.

Kiona:

Before we dive into this episode, I just want to stop and say thank you so much for tuning in to this podcast. I love producing the birth as we know It podcast and sharing all of these amazing stories with you all. And if you love it as much as I do, come join us and the Birth As We Know It Podcast Community on Facebook. You can do that by going to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community. Now if you end up liking this episode and you want to hear the perspective of of a partner, you can tune in to episode 23 with Samuel Munchrath. In that episode, he talks about what it's like, to support his wife throughout her pregnancy as well as throughout her labor and birth. And spoiler alert, he talks about catching his son in that episode. So don't hesitate to tune in after this one. All right. Let's get into this amazing episode with Nicole. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Earth as we Know It podcast. Today I am interviewing Nicole Bulow, who is the owner of Solfuel Wellness, and is located in Seattle, Washington. Solfuel Wellness focuses on pelvic health, physical therapy that unlocks the existing potential for a comfortable pregnancy, smooth birth and efficient postpartum recovery. And today, Nicole is going to be talking about her two personal birth experiences of her son, Baker and daughter, Sofia. welcome, Nicole. Thank you so much for coming on.

Nicole:

Yeah. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Kiona:

Yeah, I'm super excited to dive into this and I'm sure listeners will always hear that. I'm super excited because I really, truly love talking about birth. But let's go ahead and dive right in to the conception process of Baker.

Nicole:

Yeah. So let's see. It wasn't an easy journey. You know, like, many are, like, mapped out, like, okay, I'm going to stop taking my oral birth control three months before I want to get pregnant, because that's what my doctor recommended. And I did that. And actually, I did get pregnant kind of right away. which felt like, Oh, this is so easy. Just like I thought it would be right. And then unfortunately miscarried in that first pregnancy, which was the journey that many of us have been on, I think because I hadn't been trying for so long, like it was definitely hard and challenging, and so I definitely rode an a emotional rollercoaster, but was really fortunate that I ended up having to go in for a not a DNC, but like a different type of procedure where they, like, use a vacuum instead. And my doctor actually sent me to an abortion clinic, which was a really incredible sort of feels like the wrong word, because obviously the process was not what we wanted, but it was actually a really healing experience. I think being in a setting where they're used to supporting the termination of a pregnancy they were so supportive. There was like time in a room where they actually had a journal that you could write in and it just stayed in that room. So like my husband came with me and we sat in like we read some of people's other stories and like, I mean, certainly very like emotional stories in there. But I got to write down what I wanted to write down, and I felt, I think, really supportive, which is not something that often happens when people go through this process. So I would have never guessed that that would have actually been really healing. But we're fortunate that that was the journey that we ended up on. And then from there it took gosh, close to a year to get pregnant again. And I was 16 years of birth control. And I think it just, now knowing what I know and I think it kind of wrecked my intrinsic hormonal system and my cycles were all over the place and super long and, you know, worked with a really great acupuncturist here in Seattle that I think did a lot of amazing work just to help balance my hormones. And then eventually, yeah, a year later, as we were starting to bark up that tree of like, okay, what are the options? Should me I think I even made an appointment with a fertility clinic to kind of start down that road. And fortunately the stars aligned and yeah, I got pregnant with my son and July of 2017. Yeah.

Kiona:

Wow. Yeah. The first thing that sticks out to me there is the fact that there was a journal in a room. Because I can only imagine. Being in that seat and having moments, you know, depending on why you're in that seat, like, are you in there volunteering to have an abortion? Are you in there because you have to have an abortion for medical reasons? Are you in there because of a situation like yours where you miscarry and need a procedure to, clean your uterus out and reset your body? all of those many different reasons could pop up in that journal. can find something that you can relate to. You can find, even if it's not the reason, it's the emotional side of it that

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

you can. I just like my heart. Just like I have goosebumps thinking of the stories that are read because people are so vulnerable and. You have the bravery to write your story in there.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

For other people to read and for you to put out there for people to hear. That stuck out to me. And I think that's absolutely amazing. I also truly appreciate you mentioning how Even though it was very unfortunate for you to be there, the support that you received is so important. The way that you're cared for is so incredibly important.

Nicole:

So important. Yeah. Yeah. It was just as I reflect back on that time, because sometimes I've been like, I didn't really mourn, like, the loss of it. And I think there were lots of variables that played into that. But I think that experience, just like so much of this birth journey, is really about the support. You receive. Like there was someone holding my hand during like the whole procedure my husband wasn't allowed in, but like, she was there. I mean, I couldn't tell you what she looked like now if she, like, walked right in front of me. But there was like another woman holding my hand, just like talking to me the whole time. And it was just like, so nice to have that support. I mean, I think that is so key in this whole I mean, this is probably partly why you do this podcast so that people can feel supported and heard and understood. And there's so much of that that is lacking that anywhere we can receive that support as birthing people and also give that support is just really a gift.

Kiona:

Yeah, 100%. I agree with you. And you're correct. That is one of the reasons why I create this podcast Community is extremely important. Relatability is extremely important, and being heard and feeling seen is also extremely important. And so to be able to do that in any way that I possibly can as one individual in this world of I don't even know how many. It's it's important to feel like you stick out of the crowd and matter. we're not just numbers. We are also individuals that have impacts on this world as well. So. Yes. So tell me about the moment you found out that you were pregnant with Baker. What were your thoughts? Were you concerned about potentially also losing this pregnancy? Like, what was going through your mind?

Nicole:

Yeah. I mean, I think yes, especially in the very beginning, like that doubt of like, is it going to stick? And because it took us so long to get pregnant the second time, that was definitely there and like for the miscarriage ultimately. I felt shitty, so I was like, Yes, I'm pregnant, right? And then it was when we went for our first ultrasound that they were like, the measurements weren't matching up. And so it was sort of in those like first, 6 to 8 weeks that there was definitely that doubt. You know, it's sort of interesting, though, like I sort of knew that it was going to stick. I just sort of like had an intuition that it was all going to be okay, which I think was fortunate and comforting. And I think the other thing was, like so many people, the first time we got pregnant, we didn't tell anybody, you know? So then I remember like going for a run with a good friend. after the miscarriage And I was like, So I was pregnant. And then I miscarried and it was just sort of this like it just felt really awkward, And so we had decided, that when we got pregnant again, we were going to tell the people that were close to us, like pretty early on. And so we had done that. And I think, again, just back to the conversation we were just having about like feeling supported, it was sort of like it was exciting to share the news, knowing that we may have to like then share the news that it didn't stick. But I think just not holding that secret gave it this level of just like, I don't know, calmness that made it feel less scary. I guess if we were going to miscarry again because we didn't have to have this like so we were pregnant and then we miscarried and then people are just like, I don't know how to respond to you. And we were certainly an early in our peer group. We were one of the first people to get pregnant. And so, you know, you just don't your peers don't necessarily understand. It's you know, it's just like, grey. You know, you don't know until you know, but just sharing made it feel a little bit better. And as soon as we went to that first ultrasound, which I think we had it on the earlier side because we were nervous about the miscarriage. And then I just trusted like, well, I don't feel very good. And so as long as I keep feeling not good, it's sticking. So yeah.

Kiona:

I actually truly appreciate that process that you're explaining because there are people that have a miscarriage and don't tell anybody about it, but continue to not tell anybody about it. And then they feel that if they do, they're just going to be disappointing. Others if they get private. They have a loss. So it's so comforting for me to hear this and probably some of the listeners as well, because it shows that community and support in your situation felt more encouraging and supportive versus, Oh, I'm going to disappoint people But everybody has their reasoning as to why they decide when to But yeah, I appreciate you sharing that with. Me and the listeners. So I think that's great. as far as your pregnancy with Baker, you said you were feeling gross. So what were all of your symptoms

Nicole:

Yeah, I mean, definitely I had a lot of, like, the fatigue. And like, although I did tell my peers, I didn't tell my boss or any of my colleagues, you know, that just didn't feel like the right space for me to share it I would like go. I had like a pillow and a blanket in my car. And so like on my lunch break, I would like go out to my car and I'd move it to a different place in the parking lot, like there was a pretty big parking lot. And like, I just remember, like, taking a nap in my car. And of course, in hindsight, I'm like, Well, if I had told them that I was pregnant, then I wouldn't have had to hide that, you know? But probably still I would have made the same decision. And then, yeah, I remember like it was summertime when I got pregnant, so I'm like a pretty big, like, salad. Fresh veggies, especially in the summer. And I immediately was like, I cannot eat a single green leafy vegetables. Like, No, thank you. And that, like, persisted through my whole pregnancy. I think those are like the biggest things that stand out I think one of the challenges for me is that like I run like running is one of my activities and. Just feeling like so, so tired. And I ended up in all three of the pregnancies, including the one I miscarried, had pretty low iron levels. I was anemic and I mean, it made my legs feel like I was running a marathon even though I was going like super slow and not very far. So I definitely struggled a little bit with that like identity piece and like loss of the ability to like, do something that I really enjoy doing in that first trimester and just being so tired. Fortunately, I had some nausea, but it was all very manageable.

Kiona:

Yeah. Pregnancy fatigue is no joke. Like. That was the heaviest symptom that I had. And it's seriously like you are fighting so hard against yourself all day, like 24. It's like you're like, Why am I so tired? So, so intense. So I. And Pregnancy anaemia is also no joke because. Really hard to handle. So throughout your pregnancy, did you do anything specific to support that to prevent you from having blood loss? Like, did you have to go in and get I.V. infusions?

Nicole:

in my first pregnancy I was able to just supplement I did like a combination of like just like an oral pill iron. And then there's like a liquid based, plant based iron as well that isn't as constipated. And so I took that well, it tasted terrible. So like in that like kind of nausea, you know, I had to, like, balance out, like, the constipated pill with the, like, sort of nausea inducing liquid. But I was able to do both of those in my second pregnancy. I did end up going in for one round of iron infusions.

Kiona:

Mm hmm. So as soon as you say liquid iron, I'm thinking of Floradix, Is

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

that what it was

Nicole:

Yeah, that's exactly what I was.

Kiona:

That's really um, Not very flavorful.

Nicole:

Or flavorful in all the wrong ways.

Kiona:

So tell me about what you did during your pregnancy to prepare for your labor with Baker.

Nicole:

Yeah. So I didn't really do very much because honestly, like coming into this space now, I mean, ultimately, and we'll get into this more later, like my journey to where I am professionally was influenced by my pregnancy, birth and postpartum with Baker. And so I really like I didn't know now I'm a part of all these birth professional groups and I'm like, Oh my God, there are so many resources. And I think because I was early in my peer group of getting pregnant, I had no idea. Like I was based with a hospital based midwifery practice here in Seattle. I also have an amazing naturopath, and so my naturopath and acupuncturist were kind of my primary education sources. But, I kind of followed the advice that is pretty cookie cutter out there, right? Like you can continue doing the activities that you've always done. And so for me, like I ran and probably shouldn't have been, you know, it was like I was mapping out like, okay, I can run a mile before I have to go pee. So does this route have a porta potty or a bathroom or like, I mean, honestly, I squatted behind some bushes that, like, I probably shouldn't have, but it was like I just couldn't. I mean, I think I was loading my system. Those were signs that I probably should cut back my running. But I ran until about five months and then I just really didn't feel good, you know? And I continued to like, hike and move. And I have like a little stretch routine that I would do every day, but it was nothing specific to pregnancy or labor. It was just like, Well, I'm empty and I kind of know how to move. And I knew nothing about like public health at that time. So I did that. And then our few friends that had been pregnant or and had kids before us were all kind of meh on all the hospital based birth classes that they had been to. And so I came across I'm not sure how an online birth training based out of Australia called. I think she births is what it's called. And they had some like prerecorded lessons and meditations. my husband and I did those together. And so I did this kind of daily pregnancy based labor prep meditation. But honestly, it was very breath focused and calming focused. it was great, but that was really all I did. You know, we took like infant CPR, but from a like birth prep labor prep standpoint, like, I didn't really do anything Which is funny to me now knowing all the resources that are out there and also sort of like man bummer. Like why didn't anyone share that stuff? I had at the time my, like physical therapy bestie also was pregnant at the same time. So I think the one thing I did was she and I traded treatment like body work type treatment every other week. We worked in the same clinic at that time and we didn't know anything about, like pregnancy specific treatment, but we knew a lot about the body and hands on stuff. And so we were kind of just like, let's just experiment on each other and like, this seems safe. we don't really know, but it feels better when we do it. And so I think that was probably the main thing that I did it was more but just like we want to feel good in our bodies and we kind of don't then like any gold direction beyond like, how do we just feel good as we get bigger and bigger?

Kiona:

Yeah. First off, I think that's an amazing resource right there. The.

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

Another person who was pregnant at the same time that could trade body work with you. That right there if you did nothing else. That right there is also beneficial because that supports the physical process of.

Nicole:

Mm hmm.

Kiona:

Well, as you know, fixing alignments and things to ensure that your birth is smooth. That's super awesome. And as far as finding an Australian online birth course, I think that's cool.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

You know. You just came across and you're like, Oh yeah, that sounds good. I'ma do it. Because, having something is better than having nothing.

Nicole:

Totally.

Kiona:

And so that brings me to a question. When your peers did start having children, did they then turn to you for resources since you had already had kids?

Nicole:

A little bit. I think I was also like pretty vocal about all the things. I mean, part of my mantra, it's sort of been like I'm a physical therapist and like, I don't know any of these things. And like, we're as a profession supposed to be these experts on the human body. Like if I didn't know anything, how does anyone else know anything? And not in like an egotistical way, but just sort of feeling like, wow, I guess I sort of felt let down by my own, education and training and profession. And so I was pretty vocal about sharing, you know, what I did and mainly more like what I had learned coming through the process. I mean, thankfully, a friend was like, Are you getting a doula? And I was like, What? You know? And then ultimately I was like, No, but that sounds great. And she literally gave me her list. I was like, How do I even she was like, Here's my list. And I was like, Thanks. You know, we didn't end up using the same tool, but like, I think I was just sort of still, overwhelmed that I just interviewed the people she interviewed I mean, we found someone that was a great supporter for us, how it worked. But yeah.

Kiona:

That's cool. So you did get some good resources from your peers, which is great.

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

That's awesome to know that you hired a doula. So at what point in your pregnancy did you end up hiring a doula?

Nicole:

I think we probably sort of like end of second or early third trimester that I kind of did the interview process. Like I went and did the initial interview and then narrowed it down to like two. And then my husband kind of did a follow up interview with me. And we ended up with somebody who was a good match for us. sometimes I'm like, I wish she'd been a little different. And now I'm like, If I knew now what I knew, you know, like. But she was great and, like, A huge player in our birth. My husband is like a huge believer in doulas like we teach a birth class together and he's always like, get a doula get a doula because for him it was really supportive.

Kiona:

Yeah. Okay. I'm just loving this right now because you just said that you and your husband teach a birth class together. Oh, my gosh, that is so cool. I love that because it is so important for partners to have some incorporation in this realm, like in the birth.

Nicole:

Mm hmm.

Kiona:

I love that so much. We will definitely talk more about that birth class because I want to share it for you. Okay. So let's go ahead and focus back on you and let's dive into the moment that you realized that you were in labor with Baker.

Nicole:

well, I was for two weeks and I think six days had the appointment with the midwife And she, they were sort of like, okay, we'll give you to Monday. And if you haven't gone into labour, then like we'll talk about And I was like, Okay. I happened to have acupuncture that afternoon and she was like, How badly do you want to go into labour? And I was like, Really bad. Before I dive into that, I'm going to just I just want to share one thing that's happened to me that sort of was definitely an anomaly in pregnancy. So my 37th week, I got something called Bell's Palsy, which is a facial paralysis. So there's a nerve that comes out right behind your ear. And for me, the telltale sign was like I had this crazy headache that manifested itself as this, like, super intense pain behind my ear. And I was working and I could notice, like, my face just felt kind of funny. And then fortunately, like, I know enough to know what was happening. So essentially, long story short, half of my face loss of motor function. And so, like my mouth drooped, I couldn't close my left eye. Like, literally there's pictures of me smiling and like, half of my face is lifting and the other half is totally flaccid. So this totally I mainly want to share in that it it's caused by swelling that happens during pregnancy. So although it's very rare, it's not a medical emergency. It's only affecting the motor function in your face. All of my facial function came back, but just it's like weird shit happens in pregnancy. So that happened. It was fortunately, by the time I went into labor, I had regained like 80% of my facial function. But just wanted to share that it's like shit happens in pregnancy.

Kiona:

My gosh. Yeah. I'm telling you, I learned something every. That I've never heard of that

Nicole:

Yeah, it's pretty rare.

Kiona:

Bell's palsy.

Nicole:

Mm hmm.

Kiona:

Wow.

Nicole:

Yep.

Kiona:

did it impact anything else outside of your motor functions? Like did you struggle to swallow or breathe?

Nicole:

Yeah. So not swallowing. It was essentially like my lip. So like I couldn't suck out of a straw. and my words and my speech was like a little funny. Like we went to Pike Place Market here in Seattle, and I think people were looking at me like, Yeah, I was 38 weeks pregnant and like half my face was drooping, but I was just like, I'm here, you know, whatever. I obviously stopped working at that point too. I think my body was just like, Take a break. Chill. But yeah, so the biggest thing was that my eyelid wouldn't close, so I had to, like, use eye drops. I had to, like, tape my eyelids shut at night, which was really annoying, or wear an eye patch to, like, keep it hydrated. And then like, eating and drinking was interesting because I couldn't fully close my lips. So my tongue worked, but my lips did it. So if half your face starts like looking funny, it's kind of scary. But It's not like a medical emergency. Like I went to the E.R., like pregnant woman, facial droop. I should go, like, right. in, no. they were like, You have Bell's palsy. We're just gonna sit and wait.

Kiona:

I mean, that's so interesting because, you know, the drooping of the face can be a sign of other things. But I guess it. Also be connected with other symptoms because I'm thinking of, like, stroke.

Nicole:

Totally. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. So definitely don't ignore the fact that you have a droopy face.

Nicole:

Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Go in. But as long as other things are okay, it's not like totally terrifying. And they I mean, they identified it, like, right away. And I was like a little disappointed, you know, because then I knew I was going to hang out in the E.R. for forever. But I was like, okay. They gave me a steroid when I was there, and that essentially helped decrease the inflammation. And because of where I was at in my pregnancy, there was no, like, negative reasons to take the steroid.

Kiona:

Hmm. Okay, great. So interesting. Thank you. Okay, So let's go ahead and dive right back into when you were in labor with Baker, what were the first signs? What were you feeling?

Nicole:

Yes. So I kind of woke up sort of middle of the night with what felt like menstrual cramping to me. I literally, like, picked up my phone and Googled what does labor feel like? You know, because again, like, no one had told me that in any space. and so I was like, okay, yes, this is labor. So that kind of started around midnight on Friday the 13th. I sort of were like, okay, this is it, I message the doula and she was like, rest as much as you can. And so I was definitely like drifting in and out probably til about five, six in the morning. And then I was at the point that I was like, I need to get out of bed. I think I went and like ran myself a bath and my husband was still in bed. I was I was sort of like, I got this, I don't need you yet. And then he got up and made breakfast. Was that was like one of the things our doula had said was like, make sure you eat a meal as soon as you can, in the morning. And so he made breakfast. And, I labored at home. I was sort of like in the tub, in the shower, sitting like backwards on the toilet. And I think around like eight or 9 a.m. our doula, showed up at the house. I think for me, having both of them there was like I was just in my own experience, like I wasn't paying attention to how long were the contractions or the timing of them to sort of help make that decision? I fully gave that responsibility to somebody else at around 10 a.m. they the doula, ultimately, I mean, my husband was also just like, tell me what to do and I'll do it, which was really great because he didn't have to remember anything. And at that point, like he didn't really know anything either. Yeah, so, around 1030 in the morning we went to the hospital. I remember like being in the car. It was a 20 minute drive from our house to the hospital here and being like, Oh man, this sitting in the, in my like car is like not exactly where I want to be, but I got to the hospital, got up to the triage. we weren't there for very long. They checked me and I think I was five centimeters dilated. And so I certainly had had this fear around, like showing up too early and getting sent home. The only real birth story that I knew anything about that phase of it was my mother in law, actually, who happened to be a labor and delivery nurse when she was pregnant with my husband. She went in and they were like, You're not ready. I go home, And she was like sort of embarrassed by that because that was her job. So that was sort of the only story I knew around you have to be at a certain stage of your labor in order for them to admit you. So thankfully, I was there and, contractions were definitely like increasing in intensity, but it all felt pretty manageable. And so we transferred to the birthing room and we were, you know, I think I feel very blessed that like I got another amazing, kick ass supportive team. it was Friday the 13th. And so, of course, the hospital was like packed with people in labor, but we ended up with like a nurse who was finishing her training to be a midwife. And we ended up with a midwifery student who for whatever reason was like assigned to us. So for pretty much the duration of my labor, I had my doula, my husband and then essentially two other midwives, and then the actual midwife came in like intermittently. So I had like a really awesome team. And then I labor for a long time and I got stuck in this like 5 to 6 centimeters dilated for, hours and hours and hours. And, we sort of did everything like I was in the tub, I was on the bed. I was on the toilet, I was walking, you know, like all the things. And I just wasn't progressing. And as things were Marching on the hours as well as like the intensity of everything. I think like a few things started to happen. One, I had this intense what I called rectal pressure, that never went away. So, like, it didn't matter. Like, the contractions came and went. That pressure was still there. I have some ideas now of what was actually causing that. But then there was just no break from the intensity of that sensation. And I think I really hadn't eaten very much or drank very much. So I was kind of running out of fuel and my water had not broke, so they offered to break my water for me and I really didn't know like what that meant or like what that may implicate. But at the time I was like, Well, this sounds like something that will hopefully help move things along. And so I was like, Yeah, sure. Like, let's do it. And then that took all of my rectal pressure and like, amplified it a lot. And I don't know if that's because that allowed my son to drop down into my pelvis a little further, or it shifted his position because he wasn't sitting in that fluid sack anymore. But I went from being like, okay, this is really intense to like, okay, I'm tapping out. I went into this labour, hoping for as little to no intervention as possible. I was open to getting an epidural, but it certainly was not on my list of things that I wanted to do. And at that point I was just like, nope, Like, I like I vividly remember I was laying they were like, let's I think I'd been laboring on the toilet and they were like, Let's go back to the bed. I got up off the toilet and literally, like lay down on the floor. And I was like, I need an epidural. this is just too much. And I think both from the like, intensity and persistence of that pressure as well as been at least 12 hours since I'd really eaten very much in like the randomness of random things we made a loaf of homemade bread at like 4 a.m. And so we'd brought this loaf of bread and butter to the hospital, and I brought cookies for the nurses. So essentially from like 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., I'd eat in bread with butter and some chocolate chip cookies, which is like delicious, but not the most energy giving over that duration of time. So I'm super grateful. In that moment. Both my husband and Dwolla were like, Are you sure? my doula cleared the room for us like asked all the everyone else to leave the room so that I could have a beat to decide was that's really what I wanted. And 100% was what I wanted. And even looking back is the best thing I could have done for a vaginal delivery. And I can share more about that sort of why later. So as for the epidural, of course, it was like a shift change. So 730 is a shift change for most hospital staff. So I had to wait. And at that point, you know, it's like anything, once you decide that you want something, you're like, I can't whatever it is, like you don't want to wait anymore, right? So I think they actually ended up giving me Toradol or whatever that kind of like non narcotic pain medication was. Because I think mentally I was just like, I'm done. I need help. And like, I kind of stopped being able to cope as well Once I made that decision to get the epidural, that did nothing. I think it kind of like took me out of my head a little bit in the way those things do, but didn't help with that. So eventually I got the epidural what it gave me was a chance to relax. It gave me an opportunity to, like, pause and relax mentally. It gave me a chance to rest, I ended up, resting for a couple of hours. But I got the epidural, and within half an hour, I dilated to nine centimeters. And I think and this is where, like, I believe that my epidural was like, the best thing I could have done to ensure a vaginal delivery because it allowed my pelvic floor to relax. And I don't think that that would have happened had I not gotten the epidural. And so, I will soapbox for just a moment, but like, I think that there's a lot of negative. We sort of think every intervention that leads to another intervention, if you get an epidural, your likelihood is that much higher of getting the C-section and like, yes, I think those things are true. But I think for me, had I not gotten that epidural, which allowed every part of my system to relax, that I would have ended up with a C-section, because I think I would my son would not have been able to descend. I would have not been able to relax. I was like out of resources on many different levels. And so I feel super grateful for that epidural. And then, yeah, I rested for a couple hours. They came in, they were like, You're fully dilated. Let's start pushing. And I was like, okay, this is what I came here to do, right? And then I pushed for like 2 hours. And another lesson I learned was that I had no idea how to push, you know? And of course, like, you go into labor being like, people give birth all the time, like, doesn't everybody know how to push? And like, that was certainly like I didn't even think that maybe I didn't know how to push. And I had the epidural and so I could feel the pressure of the contractions. And so I knew when to push, but I didn't have a lot of input. And I don't know if it really would have mattered if I hadn't had the epidural, like I had no idea how to push. And so I think that's part of what made it take so long was I just didn't know. And ultimately I finally was like, I need you to like, tell me where to push. And so my midwife spent at least an hour, like literally with her finger in my vaginal opening, like right here, Like this is where you're pushing it right here. And like, I needed that tactile input because I couldn't. Connect to that space and like I could feel the pressure of her finger even with the epidural. And we were like, Oh, this is going to be, you know, a Friday the 13th baby. And the midwife was like certain like she was going to come. No, he didn't. He waited 1212 on the 14th, he finally came out. So pushed for a long time. But he came out. They were like, okay, you literally have like three more pushes and we're coming in with a vacuum or forceps. And the OB came in and I think I was just like, No, I'm not doing that. Like, I can do this. And whatever pulled in all the wisdom and strength of all those that had come before me and knew that and was able to deliver him without needing any instrument assistance. My husband was there to catch him And then there he was.

Kiona:

Oh, my gosh. So there's a ton of moving parts there. And I actually really love this. So I have a couple of questions. As we're going through this, In my mind, I'm thinking your pelvic floor is very tight.

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

That is what I am thinking. And I am also thinking you're a runner. So. Are those two? Would you say that those two things are coincided?

Nicole:

I think that they often are. I think that there is often this, like both from my own personal experience and then like my professional experience. I think there is an element of people who are quote unquote, like more fit or stronger or like exercise with more intensity, often have more tension in all of their muscles, and the pelvic floor is a part of that. So I think that, yes, there is, not everybody. But yes, I do think that there is a connection there. Mm hmm.

Kiona:

Okay. Yes, that's what I was kind of connecting in my mind, like my doula and student midwife brain is like, hmm, maybe these things.

Nicole:

Yes, totally. Mm hmm.

Kiona:

And then just out of curiosity, I have had a previous client who was an avid runner. Her and her husband were avid runners and her heart rate was always low. Was your heart rate low as well?

Nicole:

Mm hmm. Yup. And I think that in some ways, that works to your advantage. Because if you can keep your heart rate low, then your baby's heart rate often stays low, too. And so I think that that sort of helped me be able to be in that stuck state, in that pushing state for a long time with there being very little concern about his heartbeat.

Kiona:

That's.

Nicole:

Or mine. But his in particular.

Kiona:

Yeah, I think that's awesome. And in this particular client that I'm thinking of in her labor, her heart rate was so low that the nurses were like, Are you, are you okay? Like. Rate was like. I think I think when she was pushing it was like in the sixties. But that was like.

Nicole:

That's.

Kiona:

For her. Yeah. And so I was like, Oh, snap. Okay. It's great if you know your body, you know.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

And she did amazing. But yes. So My next question is, how was your immediate postpartum? Did you get skin to skin? Did you do delayed cord clamping or anything like that?

Nicole:

Yeah, we did all of that. We did delayed court clamping. We did immediate skin to skin. They were all really supportive of all of that. They offered when it was time to cut the cord, they offered my husband an opportunity and he was like, I think he tried. But then it was like, It's a weird texture, right? I don't think he was thinking that. And so they ended up helping. But yeah, what I learned from my second was like, I wish that we had chosen to not have him cleaned as much as he was clean. But, you know, he was under a little bit of distress because of how long the labor was and how long I pushed for. So there was like a moment where they were like, I think kind of rubbing him to kind of stimulate him a little bit. But yeah, we did delayed cord clamping. We did immediate skin to skin, you know, like he immediately, like, pooped all over me. But they were like, you know, they just, like, cleaned it up and like, put them right back on my chest. And that all felt really good and supportive, And then, you know, I think we were in that postpartum room longer because we had to wait for the epidural to run out of my system until I could get up and walk and go pee until they moved us to the postpartum room.

Kiona:

Nice. Yeah. Oh, that sounds so necessary when it. You staying in the room to make sure that you can have all your body functions back when? Less attention on you in the postpartum recovery room. So what feeding method did you choose and then how was your postpartum emotions during your postpartum time?

Nicole:

Yeah. So we decided to breastfeed. And that turned out to be, like, quite the journey. It was not easy. You know, but in that, first, like 24 hours it really seemed fine, he latched, he nursed. It hurt, you know? But like, we ended up in the hospital functionally for two nights because he was born at midnight. And so we stayed that whole night. And then we stayed another night after that. So we were there for kind of a long time, but it seemed fine. But I think also, like I didn't know what it was supposed to be like, you know, And I think there is this like, yes, it's uncomfortable, and I don't even really know how to do this, but like, how do we help people understand that? Like there's a discomfort and there's like a dysfunctional discomfort and, you know, like, what are the signs the baby isn't feeding well and therefore, probably the discomfort you're feeling is maybe a sign that something's off. with baby and their mechanics. So, yeah, I think, like, it seemed fine. It ultimately was not fine. We, like, struggled with a tongue tie and weight gain and a big long journey with that. But in the hospital it felt fine. And then I think in terms of like postpartum mood and stuff I felt pretty good. I think that my biggest mental challenge was because I had pushed for so long and labored so long and had a catheter because the epidural I had, like I would say, no bladder control at first, right? So one of their big things after an epidural is like, Can you pee? Which I could pee, but I could not hold it like there was a moment that my husband, like pressed the nurses call line and was like, I can't swaddle my baby. My baby is crying and my wife just peed all over the floor. And they were like, So you need general support. And he was like, Yes. I didn't really know anything about pelvic health. Like I had sort of been like, I'm not doing that as a PT. So like, yes, I was like those first. I think that was probably the biggest emotional challenge for me was I had to wear like depends for the first like two weeks. Like I like could not if I stood up, I peed like I had very little control over my bladder and that was a little bit like what the f just happened and what happens next. A friend had given me like, here's a bag of like diapers and, you know, whatever witch hazel pads. And like, I literally was like, I have no idea what any of these things are for, but like, I guess I'm going to need them, you know? And in hindsight, I should've been like, What are these things for? But I didn't. I think I was a little embarrassed because I didn't know, so I didn't want to ask and she didn't volunteer. but then I got home and I was like, Oh, I need everything that's in this bag, So I think that was my biggest mental challenge.

Kiona:

Yes. And I have a feeling that this is going to play into decisions that you made later on.

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

Both like with your second pregnancy as well as your profession. So let's actually dive right in to the length of time between birth and conception? Sophia. So let's go ahead and dive into that.

Nicole:

Yeah. So we were about 15 months. Essentially, our doctor was like, wait at least 15 months. And I was like, no problem. And I think then because it took us so long to get pregnant the first time, we thought like, okay, it was right around 15 months and we were like, Let's start trying. I didn't get an IUD, we didn't go back on any form of birth control. I was like, I'm not touching birth control with like a ten foot pole. After that. But we had used like condoms and stuff before. so yeah, we just decided like, okay, let's start trying. And we got pregnant like the first time, you know, that we tried which I think is like such a common story. But also I sort of didn't know that. And you also kind of think, Well, no, not me I actually got pregnant again in July of that would would've been 2019. So two years after the first pregnancy. So that was like vastly different and much faster than we were expecting. But still like, okay, yeah, this is fine.

Kiona:

Okay, So once you found out you were pregnant, what were the thoughts going through your mind when it came to your labor and birth decisions?

Nicole:

so in that space between the two, I drove in like, okay, how can I learn both like how to heal myself and how to support myself to do pregnancy and birth differently. The second time around. So I think like the biggest things that were different was like one that came around running. I had gotten back into running after Baker was born and ultimately, started that process way too early. my pregnancy, with Sophia. I just I felt really bad. My first trimester, like I was more tired, more nauseous, and I had a toddler. And so, like, I really didn't run during my first trimester at all. And I really just like, trusted myself more to listen to my body as opposed to being like I'm a runner and I need to run. I was more like, Do I really feel like running? No. Okay, I'm not going to run. you know, I think also the running I did the first time around impacted some of my like postpartum pelvic floor symptoms and stuff. So I was really cognizant about not wanting to make those worse and also not wanting to repeat the mistakes that I felt like I made the first time. So I think when it came to like movement and activity the second time, I was just much more intentional about listening to my body and my energy levels and acknowledging that like I was taking care of an 18 month old and like that is movement and that is exercise and that is activity. And although it doesn't fit the box of what we think of as activity, I was still doing a lot and using my body and moving and like getting up and down from the floor and like that's maybe even more beneficial than like doing squats at the gym or whatever, you know. So I think that was like one of the pieces that was really different was just like how I approach to movement and really tried to lean into like, okay, what are the things that I can do that are actually helping me prep for birth? Like what does my body need to be able to do? What are the positions it needs to get into, and how do I incorporate that into my like, exercise and movement routine? So I think that was like a piece for me that was very different during the two pregnancies. And then that pregnancy had no Bell's palsy, it was actually like pretty easy in like the medical regard yeah, so then as I like moved in towards like birth prep and labor, ultimately I delivered baker on my back, had the epidural, and then I was like the only thing there was two things. So first I made like a power point with like all these positions that I wanted to do. I told my doula I was like, Just so you know, like, I'm sending you a PowerPoint. And of course, she probably knew a lot of what I was sending anyway, but it was such new information to me and felt like so important. So I had like all these pictures and all these things and all of this like stuff. And I was like, the one thing I don't want to do is give birth on my back again, because I just felt like That was the only thing that I wish had been different. So as I moved into my second, that was like the one thing that I wanted to be different.

Kiona:

Okay. Yeah. So first off, good on you for making a PowerPoint and something.

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

Because that is so cool, because, you know, having the motivation to make a PowerPoint like an actual presentation is awesome because it just shows that this is really important to you. You want to do the. That you need in order to make whatever it is that you want to happen. And then you want the people on your team to support you in that. So you just say, Hey, this is what I want. Here's a PowerPoint.

Nicole:

Yes. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah, I think that's so cool. So did you end up hiring the same doula for your second pregnancy?

Nicole:

Yes, we did. Yeah, yeah,

Kiona:

Awesome. Awesome. That's great. And then in your guest request form, you did say that you ended up transferring from a hospital birth place into a home birth. Let's talk about that transition. What pushed you to make those decisions?

Nicole:

Yeah. So ultimately it was March of 2020 and. Right the world like shut down and there were stories coming out of New York about like them not allowing partners in women were birthing on their own. there were just stories, like anyone who was pregnant or in the birthing space during that time that were coming out that just didn't feel good at all. and my doula, I was communicating with us back about, like changing hospital policies around, like what she was able to do and all of that. And, you know, at 37 weeks I was like, I can't go to the hospital. that is not I mean, in general hospital, like aside from the birthing unit is like. Otherwise sick people. But it was just like it was such a world that I had to go in for some iron transfusions and for an appointment. And there were just like so much fear, just like permeating, I mean, our whole world. But the walls of the hospital and I had sort of always wanted a homebirth but my husband was like not super comfortable with it. And since we had such a great midwifery supported hospital birth, the first time I was like, Yeah, let's do that again. But as we started talking about it, he was like, Well, let me call my friend. And so he has a good friend from high school who has four kids. Her husband's in the military. And so all four kids were born in like four different countries. So like totally different experiences and, we all have our own stereotypes, right? So you don't typically think of like a military like general as someone who's like pro homebirth. my husband called them and I think I was probably with our son and my husband got off the call and he was like, Let's do it. Let's do a homebirth. And I was like, What? Okay. And so we actually went for a walk like down at Seward Park. And I had to have this, like, you know, a little bit of a come to Jesus moment because I was like, Oh, if I choose a homebirth, there is no epidural. And that epidural is something that you know, as I've shared, was like really, really valuable and important to me. And so I was 37 weeks. I contacted like our midwife at the hospital to be like, I'm considering doing this. Like, do you see any reasons why I shouldn't? You know? And she was very honest and was like, I am a hospital based midwife for a reason, but there's nothing in your history, your last birth experience that really gives me any pause about you delivering outside of the hospital. And so that felt really great. And so then we like again, I still didn't know like a ton. So we Zoom interviewed some midwives who Had space because I wasn't the only one making this shift. And I think part of it for us was learning how much homebirth midwives can do in terms of medical support. They're not just like standing by and have like no ability to provide any type of medical intervention. And at least here in Washington, they have quite a bit of agency. So we ended up interviewing two and liked one of them better. And I was like, Okay. Like, we pick you. What's next? You know? And they were really supportive, with all of that, we had to order our own kit of stuff to have at home. And of course, like it was 2020. And so we like, message them and they were like, well, shipping times like may take up to three weeks. And I was like, I'm 38 weeks pregnant. I called and was like, What if my box doesn't come in time? And they were like, It's okay. It's like we have stuff, but, you know, so we then like pivoted to like we got a bath tub and the box came and yeah, so and then we sort of set up. My parents were in Colorado and they were going to come out, navigating all of that weirdness. And I kept saying like, Oh, this baby's coming early. And so finally my mom was just like, We're coming. It's a two day drive for them to get here from Colorado to Seattle. But then I was like, What if they show up and my son is here? Like, I really felt like, I don't want to labor with my parents in my house and like, have a great relationship with my parents, but I, like, didn't want them here. I didn't really want my son here. So ultimately we had some friends that were willing to take my son if we went into labor before my parents got here, I was navigating like, Does anyone have an Airbnb that I can like book last minute, you know, just like all of those logistical pieces. But in the like wisdom of the universe, it all worked out. My parents started driving, but they weren't here yet, so I didn't have to navigate that So my water broke at like five in the morning but then I didn't go into labor. It was like this incredibly weird twilight. And I think this is also a space that I felt really grateful to be with a home birth team because they are so much, at least in my experience. They're so much less reactionary. So they said like, okay, Keep us posted. And I was like, okay. You know? And they were like, If nothing happens in 12 hours, we'll bring you in for a non stress test. And I was like, what, 12 hours? you know, because most hospitals want you in within four. So I had this very weird like Twilight Day where I just was like, okay, I'm going into labor, but I am not in labor. I, like, wandered around the neighborhood, hung out with my son. We got the tub delivered while I went. So then I hit the 12 hour mark. Still, no labor went into their clinic and they, you know, sort of you know, I don't know. There were some real blessings of COVID, like nobody was there was so calm. It was just me and the one midwife. And they were like, sure enough, yes, your water broke. And they did the non stress test and baby was fine. And so I was like, Now what? And so they were like, Here's a recipe for an induction cocktail. And I was like, okay, what's in it? it was castor oil, almond butter, apricot nectar. And she said, Sparkling water, champagne. And I was like, okay, I haven't been to the grocery store now in three weeks, but here I go to the grocery store. I walked in and of course, the shelves are like bare. And I'm like, okay, there's absolutely no apricot nectar here, but here's like a tropical juice. So I like, got all the ingredients. We ordered pizza. We had dinner. I dula kind of freaked me out about the castor oil piece of things. So I was, like, feeling a little bit of, like, anxiety around that. I finally was like, I need my son to go because I. I could feel that I wasn't letting labor begin because he was there, So my husband took him over to our friend's house. I drank with champagne. I was like, no sparkling water at this point, right? I drank the induction cocktail and then we went and did some, like curb walking. So, right, like where your, you know, asymmetrical hips doing things to try and get things moving. And when I told the midwife that I had taken it, she was like, okay, I'll hear from you in two and a half hours. And I was like, okay, you know, like, sure. And at like an hour and a half, I was like, Nothing's happening. so they were like, okay, try and rest. It was like 9 p.m. at this point. And then like, I'm not kidding you. Two and a half hours, I was like, It's happening. And she was probably like, Oh, I knew it was going to be happening, you know? So I think like from there things increased pretty quickly. By midnight we had both the midwives and our doula were at the house. It was sort of this interesting, like, you know, we weren't masking. Our Dula wasn't masking the midwives masked. The only thing that they told me was that I wasn't allowed to actually give birth in the tub, which was fine because that hadn't been my intent anyway, because maybe COVID got spread through feces. Then if I pooped in the tub, you know, so it's just this like, such this crazy time of, like, unknown, right? but then I was at home had it not been for COVID, I wouldn't have had a homebirth. And although I wish COVID didn't happen, like that was such an amazing experience. And so, you know, I labored on my own toilet, on my own couch. And then, of course, like the birthing tub that my husband had made too hot. So I wanted to get in the tub. But we like waiting to cool it down. Finally, I got in the tub. My husband got in with me. It was just like, you know, it's your home and it's a space. I didn't have to bring anything. Everything that makes me feel comfortable was here. And so that was just really, really awesome. And I think, you know, my doula was really great at helping me stay calm and present and like, you know, recommended some position changes and stuff. And so I labored in the tub for a long time, and then I felt that I was moving towards transition and and, I didn't have the same transition experience the first time, I think, because of the epidural would be my guess. But I got out of the tub and had the full body shaking. And ended up going into our bedroom. that was where I ended up delivering my daughter. And yes, I 100% I delivered her on my back, even though that was like my one, I don't want to do this. I was laboring on my side. We were trying all sorts of different positions. And then it was ultimately like, that's just where I feel like I need to be, you know? And maybe that's because that's where I deliver the first time or the mechanics of my body. I don't know. I was just like, That's where I feel like I can push the best. And so I delivered my daughter on my back again. And sometimes still I'm like, Could I have? And then I was like, I'm not sure that I could have like, that was just where I needed to be. And so she yeah, was born in our bed here at home, and it was really magical.

Kiona:

Yeah, it just came full circle, you know,

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

like. Lived in bed and then born in bed.

Nicole:

Exactly. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah, I think that's so awesome. And I think that you brought out some really great points with the benefits and pros of homebirth. And also the concern of your provider. I think that that it's also very important to mention. Being an in-hospital provider. they do have reasons as to why they chose that path versus. Choosing out of hospital birth. But I am a strong believer that there are pros and cons of each birth location and each birth choice. So I liked that your provider said, I don't see any reason for you to pause and to like not do this. the pros of having home birth is being in your space, being in the comfort of your own home, knowing what your toilet feels like, knowing what your space smells like, Knowing what? You have available knowing that your toddler can come back home rather than needing to not visit in the hospital because of COVID policy and all that stuff. You. That is great that you mention that. And also. You are correct that you were absolutely not the only person transferring to homebirth at that time. Many people were very, very fearful and felt the same things that you did while doing their prenatal in hospital of just feeling that fear and uncertainty of even more unknowns with this pandemic of, COVID. So think that it's important that you brought that up. And having that be the push or the deciding factor of why you decided to do home. That's your experience. And the fact that your experience was positive is great because

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

that's not everybody's ending with

Nicole:

No.

Kiona:

trans. Birth with COVID, there are some that do not have the outcomes that they desire to have. But I am happy to hear that you did.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

And.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your placenta, because you had mentioned in your guest request form that your placenta just didn't want to come out. So let's.

Nicole:

Yeah. So, I don't know. I think. I mean, the placenta, I think, have, like, some sort of relationship because I had a low lying placenta in my first that ended up moving to allow for vaginal delivery. But yet. So after Sophia was born, you know, they sort of gave the normal time. And you know, after I think was like 15 to 20 minutes and then I was just not delivering the placenta, which of course was like not something I'd even known was like a thing. Right? Because it happened the first time and it just happened. And again, like, you're like, oh, the placenta just comes out afterwards. And so it became pretty clear that that was like not happening. And thankfully, I think in many ways I didn't know as it was happening that this was like a potential problem. So this was a little bit of like the blessing of knowing less. But I could tell that there was like some urgency. They gave me a shot of Pitocin. I think they ended up giving me two doses of Pitocin over that hour. I was like sitting on a birthing stool and like nursing my daughter on one side and like trying to stimulate the nipple on the other side and like, just trying to do whatever I could or what they were really guiding me to do to try and get that placenta to come out. And yeah, we got to the point and like, it's all a little hazy for me, I think, because I was just like in it like you are during birth. But the lead midwife was like, We have to transfer you to deliver the placenta like it's been an hour and we have to transfer you. And I was like, you know, a little bit like, what? Okay, like, obviously this is a thing. And so she stepped out of the room and I laid back down in bed and I was just like, no, like in my head I was just like 100% like, no like if I leave this house, I'm leaving this house without my newborn and without my husband, because they're not letting them come with me. And I guess this was my other moment of pulling in, like whatever divine feminine birthing energy spirit as possible. And sort of interesting. Like, I remember the sensation of birthing the placenta just as much as I remember the sensation of birthing my daughter. Like it was so much this like I could feel it detached. I could feel it coming out. Unfortunately, like it was just a lot of pressure. There was no, like, real discomfort with that. And she came back in like more or less the moment that the other midwife was like catching or whatever, fully finishing delivering the placenta. And it was just this like moment of like you just feel the whole I hadn't realized like how much the energy in the room had like increased. everyone just like, exhaled. And so I feel very grateful that I was one of those that didn't end up back in the hospital, because that would have changed the whole story, So we were at home and they were here and they gave me an I.V. because I had so speak into like that. They can do a lot like I they gave me two doses of Pitocin and then they gave me an IV. So I lost a lot of blood during that process. And sort of similar to like when you're in the hospital, they just clean it all up. there was a lot of blood in our bedroom. And I never knew really, when my mom showed up later that day, she, like, wash the rest of the bedding. But like, they pretty much took care of all of it. then we were just here and it was like me and my husband and Sofia, just like in our bed, you know, like he was in the same bed as we were. And they, like, took their time and did their notes and all that stuff while we were just home. And like that, especially at that time. But I think at any time, just this gift of like, we're just home, just felt so, so good. And it was like that for the first month. Like the midwives also are the baby provider for that first month. And so, like, we didn't have to leave our house for a month, which was just again, a gift for any new parents with a newborn to not have to get to our pediatrician appointments, and especially during COVID was like so amazing.

Kiona:

And with a toddler.

Nicole:

And with a title like, Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Yes. Yes.

Kiona:

Did you experience the same difficulty as with breastfeeding

Nicole:

Yes, I did. But the difference was like, I immediately was like, better and for worse, like, my son had a tongue tie. We released it. It was like the best thing we could have done. But we didn't do it until almost two weeks. He was two weeks old, and with my daughter, I immediately was like, She's doing that clicking thing that they taught us about the first time. I can see that she's not I can feel that she's not getting a good latch. And I was just like, We're doing this, you know? And I had a lot of a lot of feelings about that the first time. Like, I don't want to do a surgery on my baby, like, I have lots of feelings. It's cuts. There's some controversy around it. And the second time I was just like, no, we're just finding someone who is doing this. So similarly, yeah, she was a better feeder all along, but I also didn't let it go. We got it done as quickly as we could.

Kiona:

Yeah. But I think that that's important to mention, too, is having your prior experience of breastfeeding Baker. Okay. The clicking is still there, likely chomping rather than sucking like. This is going on. I don't want to feel the pain I felt before. Let's not suffer.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Let's get this done. Yeah, sounds like that was a good decision.

Nicole:

Yeah, it was. I'm like, you know, with my son, he wasn't gaining his weight. And so there was a much clearer indication, but my daughter was gaining her weight. And I think that's often a piece where they're like, Your baby's gaining weight. So, like, they must be getting enough. And so she was obviously getting more than he got. But I was still like, this isn't efficient. And it's like destroying me. so I sort of made that choice for me, meaning ultimately, I made it for her. But like, I made it for me first, which I think is certainly not the first time I had people the first time be like, I can't believe you're still breastfeeding, Like your nipples are destroyed, you know? And I was kind of like, Well, what else am I going to do? You know? Like, this is what I'm doing, of course. So But I think the second time I was like, I know I'm not doing that.

Kiona:

Yeah. No. And I think that is totally valid to make. You because you have to be able to care for yourself and feel comfortable and make it as easy as possible, morally and ethically for yourself. To provide the high quality of love and care that you want to be able to provide to your baby. So.

Nicole:

Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Kiona:

Good on you. Yeah. So. Wow. That is two very beautiful and amazing stories. And I love them so much because you can hear the education that you receive throughout the process. You can hear how it impacted you in the decisions that you made there forward. So I love that so much. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with me, Nicole.

Nicole:

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for listening. And it feels feels very special to share it. Like I share bits and pieces, but it's been a long time since I've, like, shared therefore in six now. So it's kind of been a long time since I shared the whole story and it yeah, it feels really good. So thank you.

Kiona:

Yeah, I love it. I love it so much. And I learn something new every single time, I swear. But before we bounce off, let's talk about Solfuel Wellness Let's just talk about anything you want to share about Solfuel Wellness.

Nicole:

Yeah. So I think like largely, my experiences as I've just shared and in particular both the birth and the postpartum healing has like led me to where I was. Like I said, I knew nothing. I was like, I'm not doing pelvic health. And, you know, more and more I've just been like, it's just a part of your body. And my, strongest ethos is that like we are one body and we therefore have to, as a provider of health care, like it is my job to treat the body like the one system that it is. And that was my belief even before my own, childbirth journey. But as I've gone through this, more and more has become so apparent that like a we're just like totally providing shitty service to pregnant and postpartum people and that we're not taking the knowledge that we know about the human body and applying it to this realm. So I think like two things are really important, really influence how I work. And so for the most part I am in Seattle. 90% of my treatment is in person here in Seattle and it's primarily body work and there is exercises and guidance around that. But for the most part, my goal is to support someone's body to work as efficiently as it can be. And so what that looks like is addressing this whole system. So that means looking and evaluating like head to toe, like I guess the pelvic floor is a piece of that. But it is really just a piece. And if you have had pelvic floor problems before pregnancy or during pregnancy or in the postpartum, it's not just a pelvic floor, quote unquote problem. It's usually a system that's not working as efficiently as it can be. And so I think for me, it's really the whole system and like that can be your joints and that can be the muscles and it can be the nerves and the organs, and it can also be your emotions and, you know, like with a C-section scar, even a perineal scar like scars, store emotions. therefore a part of my philosophy is supporting all of it. So like releasing the tension in the scar is partly about taking the tension, like manually out of that scar. But part of that is creating space for the story that's in that scar to come out. And sometimes that's the birth story, sometimes it's not. And so, I really we're so compartmentalized in our medical system. And I think, like, those are my like the two biggest beliefs that I have that I wish, like for anyone who's anywhere who's thinking about or wondering about, body support across the whole spectrum of pregnancy and postpartum is one finding a provider that understands the whole system, like there's an amazing growth in awareness and access to pelvic health. And there's a lot of pelvic health practitioners who are just treating the pelvis. And I think there's a lot of people that are still peeing their pants that are leaking when they sneeze, that have pain with sex. You know, so many other things they think they failed pelvic floor, physical therapy. And I think like any profession, there's good and there's bad and there's really excellent. Right. And so I think, what I would love for people to hear is that just if you've tried and either you just don't resonate with the practitioner or you've tried and you haven't gotten the results that you want and you haven't healed in the way that you want, that like healing is still possible, you just have to find someone else. And I think that that someone else is someone that gives you time. you cannot see a pelvic floor for 20 to 30 minutes while they're also rushing off to see someone else who's just doing intravaginal treatment and expect like complete results and like some people. Yes, get better in that framework. And I think a lot of people don't. And I think that's so important. so like, that's one piece. And then the other piece is that like we know that it takes muscles and ligaments, which is what your pelvic floor is made of and facial tissue 4 to 6 months, even up to a year to fully heal. So like if you sprain your ankle or like, know somebody that had a knee or a shoulder surgery that doctors being like, hey, it's going to take you 9 to 12 months to get back to whatever you want to be doing with that extremity. And yet when you deliver a baby, even if you have zero tearing, your pelvic floor still stretches an insane amount. And it's designed to do that. But it still stretches and like many people have a tear. And so that is damage to a ligament or a muscle or fascia. And we know from musculoskeletal research that that takes at least 4 to 6 months to heal. And so then we tell women two things. We say don't do anything for six weeks, and then we're like at six weeks. Go back to doing everything that you were doing before you got pregnant, right? Which is like, forget all the activity that you maybe stopped doing while you were pregnant because it didn't feel good for whatever reason. But we're just like setting people up for, injury, for pelvic floor problems. We're just like doing people such a disservice by simply not taking the orthopedic bubble and applying it to, like, the OBGYN bubble. Right. And so I think like that is the other piece that is so important for people to understand is that like, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like, it's going to take you a year to recover from giving birth

Kiona:

At least.

Nicole:

At least. Yeah, exactly. And like, yes, you can do a lot, that. Doesn't mean like you can do nothing for a year. There's so much you can do to, like support your recovery and healing. And at the same time, there is just tissue healing time lines that you can do nothing about. And so I see a lot of runners because that is part of what I do. And I'm always like, you cannot run until at least four months, if not six months postpartum. And the look that I get on people's faces is just like I might as well have. Just like, I don't know.

Kiona:

Devastated they.

Nicole:

They're so devastated. But I think like this was a big lesson for me the second time around was like I didn't even try to start running until like eight months. And then I had prolapse from my first, which is, you know, which creates a lot of vaginal pressure for me. And that showed back up and I was like, okay, I'm not ready. I'm going to go back to like my strength training and my agility work and like, I'm just not ready. But now at four years postpartum, I can do whatever I want. Like I don't like, I can run, I can jump on the trampoline, I can do really whatever I want from a physical impact standpoint. And am I 100% symptom free all the time? No, but I think because I really rebuilt my foundation and took the time to help bring balance back into my body, that this is where I am. And I think that's where we get it so wrong in the postpartum space. And so I think like I will caveat with like one more piece is that like I think also like in orthopedics, like if you know you're going to go in for a knee surgery, they send you the first. They're like, Let's get your body as ready as it can be. Then let's have the tissue event and then let's go back. and the reason that we do that is because we know it improves outcomes. And so I think for me the pelvic floor rehab, the postpartum healing begins during pregnancy. And so, you know, unfortunately, there aren't a ton of people that are knowledgeable about treating during pregnancy, but there's a growing pool of people who do that. And the more support you can receive during pregnancy means that you feel better during your pregnancy. And B, it means that your labor is easier because if your body has the capacity to do the dance that it needs to to birth a baby, your birth is easier. It's not like it's easy, but it is easier and therefore your postpartum healing is more efficient and so I think like that is, my mission to like support people in, but also to like, help people understand that, like, we already know this, but we're just not applying it to pregnancy and birth and postpartum.

Kiona:

Hmm. Yeah, I actually totally appreciate that you said all of that, because it is so important to realize that, yes, everything in our body is interconnected. and we don't think about it enough because I feel like the general public that's not as informed on how our body works

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

looks at each part of our body as a separate portion. Like, oh I have a headache. It must be because I hit my head when. Really? No, You have like a ton of tension in your upper back and shoulders and all of these other things. So I appreciate that you said that. I just have three final closing questions for you. My first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth and postpartum?

Nicole:

Yeah, I think my one piece of advice would be to find to add in a body worker or pelvic floor to your support team. Like, I guess that team for me is like PT slash body worker or maybe both, depending on where you are. Maybe you need both a doula, your mental health person and then obviously you need the person that's going to deliver your baby. You know, that's like a needed. But I think that including someone who is knowledgeable all about your body and your healing from pregnancy on is invaluable.

Kiona:

Yes, Okay. My second question is, what is one resource that I can share with our listeners on your behalf? And of course, I'm going to be sharing some of your wellness and everything that you offer. But tell me a little bit more about this birth class and if you have an additional resource, I'd be happy to share that as well.

Nicole:

Yeah. So I have two birth classes. One is called Training for Labor, which essentially it gives you a ten minute movement routine that helps prepare your body to do all the things it needs to do to to open at the top, to open in the middle, to open at the bottom with the idea of that. So that goes over sort of the anatomy of birth and movement routine. And then the second class, which is called the finish line. I obviously like athletics and sports and running. So, you know, is actually a class that my husband and I teach together. So that is actually a birth class. so my husband is like an investor. He is not in health care, he is not in the birth space, but he is a partner. And he was at a very instrumental role in my I didn't really talk about his role. He was like really invaluable during my birth. And so we just feel like there aren't enough people talking about the partner perspective. And so many people want their partner to be a part of the team, but no one's really teaching them how to be a part of the team. So it's just a one night class. It's 2 hours. Right now we're thinking about making it three and including dinner because that feels nice. So right now that's only in person here in Seattle. But if you're interested, you can certainly send me an email. We're planning on trialing a either a hybrid class or a virtual class or prerecorded. I don't know. So if you're interested, send me an email. Those classes are really they're just super fun. We keep doing them because they're really fun. then I think like the resource that I would, there's like two resources that I can share is that I have a movement program that takes you through the first six weeks postpartum of starting to move and get your body moving. And then the other thing that I will share is so a lot of my training comes through an organization called the Institute for Birth Healing, developed by Lynn Schultz, and she has a directory. And so anyone that has taken her coursework has just a level of skills, like when I learned from her a long time ago. Now that is what really gave me the tools and resources to really start supporting pregnant people in particular. And so that would be a great resource to try and find someone in your area that can support pregnancy.

Kiona:

Love that. Perfect. Thank you so much. So many great resources there. Okay. So my final question is, if you could describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Nicole:

Let's see. I think, Baker's birth, the word I would use would be supported. And with Sophia's birth, I think let's say the word that I would use for that would probably be connected or grounded, but probably connected. There just was a lot of beauty in the connection that my husband and I were able to have. And then just the connection of being at home.

Kiona:

I love those. I love those words so much. Nicole, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. I am.

Nicole:

Yes.

Kiona:

I did. And I think that the listeners are really going to enjoy this one, so I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Nicole:

Yes. Thank you.

Outro:

During this interview with Nicole, I learned so much more about the pelvic floor, as well as just how our bodies change throughout pregnancy. For example, she talks about how she was unexpectedly diagnosed with Bell's palsy. I had never heard of that before, and I absolutely love when I learn something new. So, Nicole, thank you so much for sharing your birth stories with me and the birth as we know it podcast listeners. Now, for you listeners Nicole has been very generous and has offered a 20% discount for anybody who wants an initial appointment or wants to participate in her childbirth education courses. If they mention the podcast. So go ahead and mention the Birth As We Know It podcast to get that 20% discount. If you want to access the links for these courses and to learn more about Solfuel Wellness, you can go to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/69 and if you have made it this far, that means that you enjoyed this podcast episode and you likely enjoyed other episodes of the Birth As We Know It podcast as well. So I would love to hear your opinion and have you be part of the conversation and the Birth As We Know It. Podcast Facebook Group. You can do that by going to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community. And don't forget, if you want to tune in to hear a partner perspective, you can listen to episode 23 with Samuel Munchrath Where he talks about his experience of being alongside his wife during her pregnancy, labor and birth. He also talks about how he caught his son, just like Nicole's husband did the first time around. So don't hesitate to tune into that if that sounds interesting. All right, friends, thank you so much for spending your time with me and I look forward to talking to you again soon. Bye for now.

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Kiona Nessenbaum

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