71-Valerie Probstfeld-3 Vaginal Births-NICU -To Mom is To Love

In the episode, you will hear Valerie talk about her 3 birth experiences. She goes into detail about how challenging her first pregnancy and birth were and how medical bullying played a huge role in her NICU experience. She then goes on to talk about what it felt like to finally have a baby that stayed on her chest without issue after giving birth to her son. 

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/71 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.  

Like this episode? Check out episode 44-Martha Snyder-3 Vaginal Births-Oliver, Luna & Caspian-Brave Steps Doula Services.

Resources:

• Valerie Probstfeld: https://www.tomomistolove.com/ 
• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International: https://www.postpartum.net
• Suicide Crisis Hotline: 988  
• Taking Care: The Story of Nursing and Its Power to Change Our World-https://g.co/kgs/FqAD6pJ
• The Little Word Project: https://www.littlewordsproject.com/ 

 Definitions:

• Best Rest During Pregnancy 
• Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU)
• Against Medical Advice (AMA)
• Nurse Practitioner (NP)

Transcript

Intro: 0:08

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth state.

Disclaimer: 1:05

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your license provider.

Kiona: 1:24

Hey, everyone. I'm just stopping in again to say thank you so much for listening to the birth as we know what podcast the Baha'i community is so strong and I love it so much. And if you want to become part of the Buckie community, go ahead and go to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community and you will be able to join our Facebook group. In that group we talk about the podcast and so many other things. So I would love to see you there. And if you find this episode interesting after you're done listening to this one, you should check out episode 44 with Martha Snyder, where she shares her three birth experiences as well. And one thing that both of these individuals have in common is their births guided them to become resources for other parents. So don't hesitate to check that one out as well. All right. Let's dive into the episode for today. She is also a nurse practitioner. But her own podcast called To Mom Is to Love And that podcast is dedicated to embracing love. And in perfection for moms. So welcome, Valerie. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Valerie: 2:45

Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'm super excited to chat.

Kiona: 2:50

Yes, I am actually super excited to dive into your three birth stories because we've briefly talked previously about how they are all different. So let's just go ahead and start off right away with what the conception process was with your first. Was she planned was she not like, just tell me all the good details?

Valerie: 3:11

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to talk about all of my babies because I just love birth stories. So once I got married, I had in my head just all these plans. But then life doesn't work that way, right? Like, what we plan is not necessarily what we experience. And I think that's what's a beautiful part of life. So when I got married, I was a bit older in my thirties, so I guess not too old, but just I think in my mind I'm like, oh, like I thought I was going to be married by the time I was in my early twenties and all of that. And I was like, Well, let me go ahead and have kids right away. But that's not really how it works. it was a lot more challenging than what I thought it would be. that took me by surprise and that was the first, I think, glimmer of I do not have nearly as much control as I thought that I would have. we did not do IVF. We got close to talking about all of that, but eventually we did get pregnant and was super excited. I remember I found out on April Fool's Day like, this is not a joke. Pregnant. So but anyway, so it was a beautiful moment. Still, I think so much of this ideal was still in my head at that point in time. but that's kind of like how I would say the conception story of my my first was

Kiona: 4:40

That's a journey. And I think it's so true that there are many people that actually have this anticipated timeline of what their life is going to be like. So tell me how your pregnancy was with your first. Did you have any really intense pregnancy symptoms or anything like that?

Valerie: 4:59

My pregnancy with my first was a whirlwind. I would say before 20 weeks it was fairly smooth. Not too many issues like it was a lot of just me being so excited about pregnancy, and I think that was a beautiful time. I remember going to Hawaii with a few friends in the summer and. I remember really not enjoying the moment. I've always been a Type A person, but I think my anxiety control kind of started to come out a bit more then and you know with pregnancy? You have so many rules and especially with your first, you just go, Oh, is this okay to have this type of cheese What about this? And I think I remember like walking on the beach with a friend and not even like being in the moment thinking about what was in my smoothie and because there. Or not that said, Oh, you can't do X, Y, or Z. I don't remember what it was, but I just remember being so concerned about that. And those things are all legitimate, but it was just hard to get out of my head. Then I came back and I don't know, there were just some really unexpected things at a couple of doctor visits after that that I just did not know how to take in. I think that, it was difficult because, like I said, I had everything planned out and I knew like, how I was going to control and react and be perfect. But I was getting this not perfect news that I didn't know what to do about it, where I was just like, How am I supposed to take these visits where people are saying, I had to go on bed rest? I think it was. 26 weeks, maybe 28 weeks, but fairly early on. And that was scary. It was very scary because I was like, I have to be okay for this baby. I have to control my thoughts. Again, I think it was a lot in my head and a lot of self-blame because I'm like, Well, what if traveling? What if me going there did something like whatever, I did something and I would ask my doctors and they're like, No, there's nothing you did. But I think as moms, we're just experts at self-blame. And even though I know logically there was nothing that I did, I mean, I got the trip approved beforehand. I did everything carefully, all of that. I still like it was in the back of my mind, like, there must have been something. So after I was put on bed rest, I really tried to control all of. Those thoughts and it was difficult. But I felt that drawing, journaling, writing that was very helpful and also as a health care provider, being a nurse practitioner. I think I got my first experience of truly advocating for my baby then, because I think there was this disagreement between providers of how we should move forward. And as moms, we have this amazing feeling deep down of what our baby needs. And no one else knows that except for us. And I think that is an amazing, beautiful thing about being a mom. And I really advocate for that now that I've experienced all of this. But I just knew deep down that I had to advocate for her. So we actually got to pretty much full term. would do many scans. And I was induced and again, I think I had as much prepared as I thought I could. I didn't really know, I guess, what to expect because there was so many I think I was on. My pregnancy. I felt like it was just high risk pregnancy. And what is high risk like? You know, it sounds so scary, it really is just people are watching I think it should be comforting to know that, there's an extra set of eyes. But I think in the moment, hearing high risk was just scary and it almost all. I don't know if shaming is the right word, but I think I felt some shame with that of like how the medical world and. OB they say, I think anyone over age 35 is geriatric pregnancy, which is we should change that term. I feel like But I was not 35, so I wasn't getting like this special thing. But I somehow got put into this special category. And it was just it was a scary moment. And I think it really kind of put my anxiety even before she was born into overdrive, if that makes sense. And I'm not sure if I'm saying all this clearly, because a lot of this I don't feel like I think about until like I'm kind of like forced back to that moment. In my mind which I think is important because these things, has shaped where I am today. And so sharing these stories so other people can hear that they're not alone in having a scary pregnancy, I think is so important. So I think that I felt very alone and isolated in that. Because I saw a bunch of my friends, like they didn't have any issues, they weren't on bed rest, and I was scared to go to my baby shower. I'm like, Well, if something impacts something, you know? So sorry, that was a long winded answer. But that was what my first pregnancy was, I guess I would say.

Kiona: 10:01

Yeah. No, No need to apologize at all. that's honestly what I love about asking questions is just seeing where it takes you. Because when you start thinking about. The answer. You're like, Well, yeah, there's this that I experienced. But then there was also this, this, this, this, this, this and this. Because of the first, this. So yeah, So you were put on bedrest and was the diagnosis of bedrest for you or because of your baby, was there specifics of who it was pointed toward?

Valerie: 10:32

Yeah. It was for the for the safety of the baby. The safety of the baby would be the right word, but it was for the baby So much of it was they didn't even know if that was going to help. It was a lot of, oh, maybe we can have you go on bed rest, maybe at some point in time we'll induce you early. We just don't really know. And so that was kind of unnerving because I didn't feel like there was really ever this, like, concrete set of rules and a rulebook. I truly saw how medicine was from the patient side. I was always on the provider side. Prior, but also how there's an art to medicine, I guess. You have this evidence based practice. But What if we just don't know? So then it's kind of provider dependent and seeing what you see and then going from there. I think I remember being thankful every week that went by that. She still was in my belly. And that's like, I think, a bit hard to relive, but I can see it from a different perspective now and how truly grateful I am for my OB at the time to be my advocate and to be there with me. And he was not my first OB. I had a different OB for the first half, and I'm thankful for that because I think it would've been a lot harder if I did not agree with the plan. Like, I think it's so important for us patients and moms to be comfortable with a plan like you are an active part of your health care plan that you are just as important We need to know from the patient. We need to know and we need to hear. And he truly, I felt like was part of that team and wanted to help us all and to make sure he told me, which I'll never forget that he's not going to let anything happen to my baby. So I am very thankful for him for that.

Kiona: 12:20

That's a very sweet and. reassuring term to hear from your provider. You know that they are going to be doing all that they can to be supportive, to make sure that both you and your baby are safe throughout the journey as much as he can possibly make happen. So, you did mention that you were induced. How far along were you in your pregnancy when you ended up getting induced?

Valerie: 12:43

it was just shy of 40 weeks. So we were able to get to full term. So that was great. I was very excited about that. And it was. Though, because that OB that walked with me every step of the way with this whole crazy journey. broke his ankle the night before.

Kiona: 12:59

Oh, no.

Valerie: 13:00

So he couldn't come in the day I was induced. So, that took me by surprise. where I'm like but , he were supposed to be there. I do clearly remember that wasn't on my own. Obviously, like, there was a health care team, but I was so wanting him to be by my side that it was like. Okay. Now, now, what do I do? How do I do this? Where do we go from here?

Kiona: 13:20

let's go ahead and dive into what that induction process look like for you. Did they start you off on Pettersen? Did they do like a cervical ripening kind of thing? Let's talk about the details there.

Valerie: 13:31

From what I remember, they did do a ripening, but it didn't seem to have any effect. I remember them saying that they would maybe have to send me home, which scared me because I remember my OB, which again is a different job now. I don't know anything about this person. And we've had such a journey that I didn't know if that was okay because it was like, well, my OB said I needed to be induced now, so like, can I go home? This is scary. And then within an hour my water broke. So then they were like, Oh, well, you're staying now. So then, I had the pitocin, actually. I don't know if I had the I don't remember if I the windows down before the water broke or whatever. I it's such a blur. I feel like it's a it's a beautiful, scary blur that I don't think the English language really has enough words to describe. But, yes.

Kiona: 14:16

Yeah, No, I get that for sure, because pregnancy, feels like it goes by so fast. And then when you're in labor or prepping for birth at all and you're like, there, it's such a time warp because things take time, but then it feels like it's not happening fast enough, but then it feels like it's happening way too fast. Like it's just coexisting, those two feelings of too fast and not fast enough. So I understand that. So throughout your labor, was there anything that you did to help cope with any of the pains or symptoms that you were experiencing? What were your plans there?

Valerie: 14:51

I had an epidural, which I did not think I was going to have. I thought it was going to do natural and did it. And I was pleasantly surprised I didn't really have too much pain, which was nice. I wasn't really expecting that. But I really don't have many memories of the painful part of my first with the delivery. I do remember as a health care provider, knowing some of the terminology and I would every now and then hear things of high risk pregnancy, which I already knew I was considered high risk. NICU team needs to be here. I do remember hearing that that being a bit unnerving, but me thinking like, Oh, it's protocol, it's fine. towards the end I remember I was dilated to ten and I knew what that meant. And I just remember them looking at the monitor so much and I knew that meant something. wasn't in a mindset to study the monitor like they were. But I did know that there was something going on that I needed to summon every cell in my body to get this baby out before something happened. Because in my mind I'm thinking If they're looking at the monitor, there is some issue with oxygen and I need to get this baby out So I think all of my focus really went into that. I'm sure there was pain, but now, taking years away from it, my main memory with that pregnancy was that I mean, my others were a bit different. I don't even know what term I would use to describe it, but it was different to be on the other side. I would say like I've. I wanted to help the health care team, but I was powerless. And because so much of me at that point in time still was being a health care provider and being like, okay, let me let me help you guys. Let me do what I can to assess their chart. And it's like, No, I'm the patient now. Like, I'm. Patient. And that was just so different to me.

Kiona: 16:39

Hmm. Yeah. That has to be so interesting to be in that dynamic of. Being on the other end, you know, So let's go ahead and dive into the moment that she was born. What was going through your head? Because I hear you say that, you know, you knew that you needed to get her out. So what steps did you take after that?

Valerie: 17:00

I would say I don't really know the exact moment when she was born but I do know that I had a crowd around me and then a crowd around her. So it went from everyone in here to everyone there. And I remember I just knew this from school, like the Apgar scores you access at one minute and five minute. How are they crying? What color? And I was trying to as hard as I could assess her from the bed, but I. Couldn't. I heard her cry, so I knew that was a good thing. But They weren't giving her to me, which I was fine with because I'm like, okay, what would they need to do? Whatever they need to do. But I couldn't hear what they were saying. And I wanted to to so desperately hear what they were saying And I couldn't move because I had the epidural. So I felt powerless. And I think that was truly the first moment that I felt like I didn't have any control. And the control that I thought I had was ripped away from me in that moment. it was probably not too terribly long. It would have been after 5 minutes because I know they were doing the Apgar's they gave it to me and they said, Mom, you're a nurse practitioner, which they were very obsessed with the fact that I was a nurse practitioner and they said, You're a nurse practitioner. This always happens to health care people when they have babies. She's struggling, so. You can take her for a second, but we need to take her to the nick you like. She's just having problems breathing. She's struggling. She's fine. But we need to just make sure she's breathing normally for a while. I didn't really want to hold her because of the information that's given to me. I mean, I obviously wanted to hold her and I wanted to meet her. She she's my baby. But it's like, well, if she's having issues breathing still, like, take her like, I can't help her with breathing right now. please do what you need to do. So I don't really feel like I met her at that point. My husband. I'm so glad we had this conversation before. He went with them to the NICU. He was able to do it because we talked about, you know, if she does have to go to the NICU, please, I want dad with her. So he did. And I remember her feeling so alone because there was that crowd that was around me, that was around the baby, and then nothing. And it was almost like I had my own Apgar score of Mom. And mine was declining. I'm glad that my baby was improving, but mine was declining. And I remember just being kind of drugged up and I was I started crying and I fell asleep. And then I woke up to a text and it was one of my husband with a picture of her and her eyes were wide open. And she was. She was beautiful and at the moment when I saw that picture, I mean, I immediately fell in love and my heart melted. But I had a new feeling of anger I was really pissed that I could not meet her and that, you know, I was glad my husband was able to meet her. But it's like strangers are greeting her and it's not me. I planned all of this out and. She should be looking at me in retrospect. I love that I have that picture, because that's that's the moment I became a mom. And I have that. I have a picture of that. And it's like a beautiful my favorite picture, I think because of the feelings I had when looking at that for the first time. But I just remember thinking like, A-plus moms don't they don't get angry. They're not mad. And they certainly are able to be with their baby. It was a lot of self-blame, even though I didn't have anything to do with it. S needed to be there. And I think that's a common thing that we talk about amongst moms that happen to you babies or, you know, or have whatever struggles they have. Postpartum are emergency things, is that we feel like we did something wrong. And I was still so blaming myself that it must've been something in Hawaii, like there must have been something that I did that caused all of this. But again, everyone was reassuring me. It wasn't, So I remember it was about 12 hours that she was either with my husband or with the NICU staff. And the way the hospital was set up, it wasn't the best set up for where The NICU was to the postpartum area. It was like a six floor difference, and I had to wait for a staff member to come get me. And I was I was pissed. There were emotions that I didn't think I could have with strangers. And I wasn't, like, angry, angry. But I was I just remember being pissed. Like, someone came in and she was so nice. She, like, gave me a cupcake and, like, a little. non alcoholic wine thing. Like, congratulations, Mom. And like I said, thank you. But as soon as she shut the door, I was like, I don't want this. Like, I want my baby. Like, get me that eff out of here and. You need to calm down. I almost. But I felt like it's like, why can't people listen? Like, I don't care what they're doing. I they need to stop. They're charting But I couldn't move. I just felt so powerless. I wanted to get to her so bad. And it was just the hardest. Time was just so slow. When the nurse finally, wheeled me up to the NICU. It was a very long ride. But once I finally got into her room, I just knew immediately she was mine. that was my favorite part of delivery, meeting her in the NICU. Like, it was just a beautiful memory. Like we all have, like our first time. We truly feel like we connection meet with our baby. It was just it was beautiful. So I remember playing music throughout pregnancy. So I played music with her and spent the whole day with her. But then I was still a patient on the postpartum floor, so the nurse told me I had to go back and she couldn't come with me. And that was very hard to leave her. But we were in the queue for seven days but those seven days made a big difference in my life story and my advocacy and my career moving forward and how I want to help other people because of the trauma I think, again, being a health care provider, it was a very unique situation, but it was a traumatic moment to be in. the NICU like it, it is. and still to this day, I will relive it. When we go to doctors visits. Certain statements, certain words will get the feeling right back. And I think it is something that we are becoming more aware of as a society of trauma and the trauma response. But I just never really wanted to go back to health care the way I was working prior because I was like, I want to do something to spread awareness for difficult situation and how we need to support not only children but also their parents or family members or whoever it is in the hospital, like everyone's a unit and we need to support everyone. And how can. We do that and work together?

Kiona: 23:23

Oh, yeah. Gosh, yes, absolutely. And there is a lot to unpack there for sure. No, it's okay. So you had just mentioned that you were in the NICU year for seven days. what did that look like and why did you end up staying in the NICU for seven days?

Valerie: 23:40

Yeah. So thank you for that question. it looked very similar to when I was a nurse practitioner. Like I've said before, I was on the other side for so long, but I was on the patient side, so it was so familiar. But yet so different at the same time. It was like this weird shift where I was attending rounds, not on a patient, but baby girl was now my baby girl. And there was this blur of roles that some of the health care providers didn't really I don't know what the right word would be, but I felt like I was being talked to as part of the team, which I appreciate that they were trying to talk. I don't think it was from like any type of intent or anything, but sometimes the words that would come out were hard to hear because as a mom, It's totally different. It's totally different when it's your own child. Like all the medical knowledge that you have either goes straight out the window or it goes straight to worst case scenario. I know this. This is gonna sound like, Oh my gosh, it's this. And so some of the health care providers will talk to me in a way that they would say, we need to rule out worst case scenario. And then like, that's where I'm like, okay, how do I deal with this? And so there was a lot of emotions associated with, I think, being treated as far as the health care team, but also being in a situation that was very scary. And I don't know the right answer to how we can involve parents in rounds because it's so important, it's so helpful in NICU. But also I think providers need to be cognizant of the extreme fragile state that parents are in in these situations and how stressful it is and how we are clinging on to every single word you're saying, even if you don't realize you're saying it. so I think that more training needs to be done As far as bedside manner with that, because these things stick with you for your life. The things that people say and for the most part as health care providers all have the best intentions. But sometimes when you're stressed, when you're rushed, people remember those things. And I think just taking a breath, realizing what you're about to walk in to, people will remember. And I think that is and not to say that health care providers, our hands are tied so much to like we are forced to see so many patients in a certain day and we have to do all these things. So that's part of what needs to change with the health care paradigm in general But, there was some trauma associated with that and sorry, this is a long winded answer of just I felt like there was some medical bullying that also came into play where the providers like really kind of some of them picked up on my anxiety and didn't understand why I didn't get it because I was a mom and that situation. So I would ask repeated questions and I would write things down and they were they just didn't get it or they didn't think I got it, and they were just confused by that. This is almost ten years and I'm still processing things. And that's what I think is so important as parents. Whether you're in the NICU or not, there are some things that stick with you. And so for me, like I have had to kind of work with a therapist on the trauma and work through things that I don't really remember. Like, I don't remember because I'm like, Oh, I think I have a clear answer to this, but then I don't because it's like, I don't remember. Like, I remember the feelings. I remember how I felt. But the details, I don't know. And sometimes the therapist, the can help you work through those things. And for me, like, it's been a journey But for the longest time it was so triggering to even, like, think about it, it was hard to sleep. It was debilitating. Sometimes when I would worry about or think about how that experience was and how frustrated I was that some of the health care providers weren't as helpful as I thought they would be and almost like, let me down. Practitioner as well, where it's like, I thought all these providers wanted to help us and not make fun of us, because there were sometimes that I got made fun of and quizzed and. You should not be quizzing parents on what antibiotics to give, what images to get. It's just not appropriate. and the fact that the medical system doesn't really do a whole lot to make that stop is disappointing. And another reason why I really feel like we need to have more advocacy for these situations to understand that Mental health is just as important as physical health.

Kiona: 28:26

Yeah. Okay. So I am actually getting a little bit more of a perspective of where you're coming from with this now. Because earlier in your story, you had mentioned how everybody that was on your birth team or working with you was kind of obsessed with the fact that you were a nurse practitioner.

Valerie: 28:42

Yes.

Kiona: 28:43

so as they're asking you these questions about your baby, they're like basically saying, hey, let's play you be the provider for your child.

Valerie: 28:52

Yes. Yes.

Kiona: 28:53

Oh, my gosh. That is incredibly inconsiderate because, like you just went through, already having to deal with some of the situations that you were dealing with while pregnant and on bed rest processing that dealing with that, having questions of your own. Like, what could have changed as a person that is becoming a mom, but also what could have changed from a medical perspective? You know, this is kind of walking that fine line of, yes, you're a nurse practitioner, but is the knowledge that you have too much and is that causing anxiety for yourself? And in this story that you're sharing with us right now, it seems as if it was a big contribution to the anxiety that you carried with you.

Valerie: 29:34

100%.

Kiona: 29:36

when you were in the nick, you with your oldest daughter and they were doing this quizzing kind of thing with you. At any point did you say, hey, can you just make the decision and inform me of what's being made? Or did you kind of want to also partake in the decisions that were being made?

Valerie: 29:53

I wanted to, and I did. But I felt like I had to revert back to my role because I worked with some of these providers. And that also was hard because there was this weird dynamic because they didn't want to make them upset because. And it's like, Oh, well, I have to be like this good employee. But I wasn't an employee anymore. I was a mom. And at the beginning, think that I didn't understand. I mean, I did. Like, I was very much an advocate, but at the same time, I didn't know how to voice it without getting angry. And so I would play NP. But then after the rounds, I would get really scared and be angry and then tell the nurse like this pissed me off. I don't know why he did this. And let me look at the chart and like, I verbalized my frustrations to people that I felt were safe, but I did not feel like some of the providers were safe. Some I did. But there were some that I just didn't feel like I could really do a whole lot with. There was one in particular. I think I damaged his ego a bit and he said some things that just were not appropriate and I told him we were going to leave AMA because I was just so tired of it. Really going on with her. I mean, she had to be monitored for breathing but there really wasn't much. I felt like the whole pregnancy and the whole journey really was this much to do about. Not a lot, which I'm thankful it was. But also at the same time. Why do we have to keep treating her and me like a medical case? we are not medical cases. And if you're just going to do this for your own curiosity, I don't know why she had an issue breathing. I don't know why I was on bed rest for my second trimester on like, I don't know why she wasn't gaining weight like she was supposed to. But right now I know and I've been in pediatrics for a long time. She's fine and I want to leave. And that particular doctor did not like that. And he said that If I left I would regret it. obviously doctors have to give patients appropriate information. But there's a difference between practicing just for their own legal stuff and doing what's best for the patient and the family. I understand what the legal implications are, but can we, like, take that aside and just treat people like humans, if that makes sense? just hearing those type of things over and over again of like, well, if you leave AMA, this may happen. This may happen. which is like, I understand those things, but I still want to leave because I know she's okay. and that was a specific situation. I wouldn't advise that for anyone. Like, I just knew like in my heart that it was okay. And the it was the next day that the neonatologist he approved of us leaving. So it was something that we should have been able to do the day before. But he kind of wanted to keep us for his own, curiosity almost, which was so frustrating to me. But medical bullying is truly a thing and it needs to be addressed and. would not have been able to get through that and a huge journey if it wasn't for those nurses, if it wasn't for the other staff, if it wasn't for everyone else. And again, this isn't to like say anything bad about doctors. I'm so appreciative of what doctors do. It's just sometimes we have to make sure that we're taking into account the patient's emotions and feelings as well. And the current medical system ties so many providers hands in that because there's just not enough time to do it. There's just not. And it's unfortunate. And so how can we think outside of the box for that?

Kiona: 33:28

And one thing that I did want to mention is you had said, AMA, and I just want to clarify that for the listeners, which is against medical advice.

Valerie: 33:36

Yes. and part of it, too. I will say now, looking back, is it was the fight or flight system? I was so scared. And I wanted to leave. I wanted to leave. I remember it being around Christmas time. All I wanted to do was watch holiday movies with my baby. that's all I wanted. I just remember thinking, I just want to watch Home Alone with her right now. And like, I couldn't like, it's almost like my brain shut down or it's like Home Alone made me feel safe. It's a movie of my childhood and like, I wanted to feel safe. And that's what was going to make me feel safe. And it's fortunate that I didn't feel that, but also at the same time, like, that's such a normal response to when you're in a trauma situation to want to free is or fight or flee. And I think I felt shame for a long time that I was experiencing those things. But it is something that is a normal mom response like. We're trying to protect our babies the best way we know how.

Kiona: 34:34

Yes, absolutely. And I will say, with hearing your story, it's very apparent that being a nurse practitioner, really impacted the way that you were looking at how your baby was cared for. And that goes into becoming a new parent. And that was very primal instincts of protection and using the information that you have in your background to be like, okay, let me protect my baby. But in addition to that, you are still human. So you are trying to take off your nurse practitioner hat

Valerie: 35:04

Yeah.

Kiona: 35:04

and do what a new parent would do, which is just be present, want to protect and have familiarity and just have that moment of be like, God, I really wish we weren't here right now.

Valerie: 35:16

Yeah.

Kiona: 35:16

I would really like. To sit on the couch with my baby and husband and just watch home Alone

Valerie: 35:21

Yes.

Kiona: 35:21

like that. That would be great. So I hear you and I see you and I can hear and validate the fact that the emotions that you were going through were through the roof and you were doing your best in that moment to ground yourself with everything around you that was going on. So.

Valerie: 35:38

Yes. Well, thank you for that. Yes, it really was, I think, a grounding. And I was eventually able to watch Home Alone with my baby. And it was a beautiful moment. But, yes, also, music was very helpful for me to. Self. so there were those grounding moments, and I'm very thankful that I was able to experience those type of things.

Kiona: 35:56

Beautiful. Beautiful. So let's go ahead and talk about your postpartum with your birth. And NICU experienced being on the traumatic side of things. How did that impact your postpartum and was your anxiety still present?

Valerie: 36:11

Yeah, I think yes, I was on edge a lot the first couple of months. And the postpartum period, we always have a lot. We're dealing with, right? We have drastically one shifts, not a lot of sleep. We're thrust into this whole new role. so I think I was doing the best I could with the sleep I had. I was struggling with pumping because she was in the NICU like, we had the pumping situation going on, which kind of like messed up, I think a bit of nipple confusion or something like that. Where, like, she only took the bottle like she would not do anything else. And then one day she only did nursing and then wouldn't do the bottle. So it's like, okay, whatever. I'm just going to do what I can do. I can still hear the sound of that pump. I think I will always be able to hear that in my mind in the middle of the night. but it was nice. I mean, I was able to really just spend time. The anxiety was pretty intense for a bit. It would happen when we would go to doctor visits and there were a lot of doctor visits in the first year of life and we had a couple of specialist visits we had to see like check off, make sure everything was going okay. I actually did have to see one of the providers that was not nice in the NICU. I had to see them again that was a bit traumatic because there was more of the quizzing at that point I did decide to go see therapy because that was hard. I felt like I could never ask a question And now, looking back, I think I had a lot of OCD that I always tended to have. Even prior to being a mom. But it really ramped up. And I don't think they understood it was OCD, so they thought some of my questions are silly, especially with the knowledge I was supposed to have. I don't think I recognized it at the time. With my second, I did recognize it was OCD and because I did have it pretty bad with my second And it was a different form of OCD because I did have very classic OCD prior to pregnancy sometimes. And I knew back then that was what it was. But with this, it was kind of mixed I didn't know why. The answer I was given wasn't sufficient. And now I know. That it was just that compulsion of asking and it wasn't ever enough. So, which makes sense. that it would flare up again. But it didn't make as much sense back then to me.

Kiona: 38:23

Yeah. I mean, you know, hindsight is 20, 20 And when you're in the moment, you're just dealing with that and going with the flow of things. So that makes sense to be able to look back and say, okay, now I can see and understand this more. So let's go ahead and move forward into your second conception journey. So you have a son what was his conception like? Was he planned? Were you excited? Was he surprised? Tell me all the things.

Valerie: 38:51

So he was planned, but we were not getting pregnant. I don't know why. And so we went through that whole journey again of maybe I knew I we actually saw a fertility doctor. He said, we're definitely not getting pregnant. We're going to have to move forward with it. And it was that month that we saw him that we got pregnant on our own. So I don't know. so I guess it was a planned but also surprise at the same time. that was an amazing pregnancy. It was very healing because was nothing. And it felt so good to be normal. and none of these journeys are normal. And what is normal? But I think just the fact that I was able to enjoy and live some of the moments that I didn't think I lived as much with the first. The delivery was. A beautiful experience I remember like I wasn't induced with him. I was watching an awesome history show and I was starting to have contractions, but I wanted to finish the history show, But he was about to come real fast. And I thought I was going to deliver him in the car. And my husband was driving us to the hospital and he was about to come, but then kind of stopped right at the very end. So he needed to be assisted out. I remember full on expecting to be told he's going to NICU like that was my kind of protective mechanism of he's going. And I remember that. I said, is he going to NICU? I asked the nurse that and she was like, No, he's doing fine. I was like, Why would you ask that? it was a beautiful moment where, he was healthy and I cannot put into words how much joy that moment was. So I sang Happy birthday to him and. The royal wedding, I remember, was going on and we just hung out in the hospital and it was an amazing vacation. Like, I felt like because now I had a a toddler at home. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I just this baby's just sleeping and we're watching TV. It was very different. But a nice difference.

Kiona: 40:54

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I can only imagine the feelings that you felt when your baby was put on you rather than the former.

Valerie: 41:05

Yes. Yes. It was beautiful. Beautiful. we're not I mean, sometimes we're just not able to experience that. And that's a grief process and. I had to kind of work through that grief process. he was able to be put on me, though, it was something that I, just can't put into words that's like what I remember the most of my second pregnancy. I remember so many details of my first I mean, obviously, like I've spent so much time talking about that, but with the second it's like it was fine and it was beautiful and like hers was beautiful as well, but like, it was just joyful I will say the postpartum part with him, it's funny, the pregnancy, the delivery, the NICU was so hard with my first, but postpartum wasn't too terribly bad other than like those doctor visits. But the postpartum with My second was a bit more challenging. I had a retained placenta. Which was fine. I mean, like, I don't know what's with my body, like having some issues with pregnancy, but they had to take that out. But I had such OCD with him. He was. Fine, but my brain did not think he was fine. And that's when some people said this is too excessive. Like, I think with my first. everyone kind of understood there was a traumatic experience. But like with this one, I remember my husband saying, like, he's fine. You need to stop taking him to doctors. But I couldn't stop. I could not stop and. I had to see a postpartum therapist, and I'm so glad I did. I remember the advice she said, really stuck with me. But the one in particular was when you're feeling these feelings. Just do the next right thing, which that could be brushing your teeth or putting one step forward. Getting up. it broke down task because I think I felt this monumental task that I had to evaluate whatever this worst case scenario is going to be. And I needed him to see a specialist to see what like my mind came up with. And then like, I would do a Google search and be like, Well, no, he doesn't. He probably doesn't have that. Now, what if he has this and that like it was? I was very much in my head. So to just do the next thing, was helpful to kind of stop that thought loop, if that makes sense.

Kiona: 43:19

Yeah. No, absolutely. That makes total sense I do have a couple of questions. So going back to his birth, you said that he needed a little bit of assistance. So did you have a instrumental assistance, like a vacuum or forceps?

Valerie: 43:36

It was instrumental. I don't remember which one it was, but I. Brett being instrumental. And I remember my husband saw it and he said, Good thing you didn't see it.

Kiona: 43:46

Hmm.

Valerie: 43:47

looking back. They gave an epidural at the very end. With the epidural stopped it. So I wonder if that had something to do with that. if I didn't get that epidural, maybe he would have came quicker or not got stuck. But I remember, like, demanding the anesthesiologist to, like, I was like, I want that damn thing. And I remember him saying, like, I don't know if we're going to get this on time I had apologized the next day. I'm like, I'm sorry if I yelled at you. And he's like, Oh, it happens all the time.

Kiona: 44:14

Yeah. I didn't take it personally.

Valerie: 44:18

Yeah.

Kiona: 44:18

Don't

Valerie: 44:18

Yeah.

Kiona: 44:18

worry about it.

Valerie: 44:19

It was totally cool, though. It.

Kiona: 44:21

Okay, awesome. And so after your son was born, were you in the hospital for, like a regular amount of time, like 24, 48 hours, then got to come home.

Valerie: 44:31

Yeah. Yeah, It was a regular amount of time. I got to come home. That was a bit challenging, I think, to navigate life with two. For just a little bit. You know, it's just different. But we eventually

Kiona: 44:41

Mm hmm.

Valerie: 44:42

got into a routine and a groove and I think I was scared for a while or I'm like, How could I do all of this? You just do like you do and then you don't know life any other way.

Kiona: 44:53

Right. Yeah.

Valerie: 44:54

It was really nice.

Kiona: 44:56

I think that's beautiful for it you to be able to come home and then to kind of figure it out. And once you get that flow, I honestly still feel like I'm still figuring it

Valerie: 45:02

Oh,

Kiona: 45:02

out.

Valerie: 45:03

yeah.

Kiona: 45:03

It just like each day each day is a new day.

Valerie: 45:07

Yeah, well, and I feel like when we figure out one thing, then there's another thing to figure out. Or it's like two steps forward. One steps back Beautiful chaos, I like to call it.

Kiona: 45:17

Yes. Yes. So did you breastfeed your son? how was that journey for you?

Valerie: 45:23

It was it wasn't too bad. I don't remember many details, but I remember it not being as challenging. I do remember just kind of more external things, just, you know, funny things with like it was 116 outside for a month and he was a newborn and like, what do you do? It sounds like, can't you put it in the car to go to a doctor visit? And like I mean, it was obviously, you know, having like the air conditioner at full blast. But I remember being kind of scared of that of like the air conditioner being full blast on this newborn, like those type of random things. Little things that you remember because they're so novel and. Stories you tell later on to your kids But yeah, it was fun. It was a fun, a fun time.

Kiona: 46:08

That's beautiful. And yeah, it definitely challenges can't even think about being in 116 degree weather. That sounds treacherous. Oh, gosh. So let's go ahead and dive into your third Did you experience similar challenges to getting pregnant

Valerie: 46:28

No, actually, that was a surprise because I thought it was going to be difficult because for the other two, they're like, oh, it's difficult, But no, not with that one. So it was a surprise I always had in me. I wanted a third. debated for a long time, should I stay with two or should I have a third? And there was just always something in me that knew, I wanted a third so I remember when I found out I was pregnant with her I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is happening again. And I looked up, there's a sign in my bathroom and it said, worry less, have faith more. And I stared at that sign and I remember thinking like, okay, that's what I'm going to do this time. going to worry less and have more face because I have spent the last two pregnancies in my head so much that. I'm just going to give this to God and see what happens. I'm glad that I healed enough that I was able to do that. But then funny that I was able to kind of work through some internal thunderstorms with that. But then COVID happened. So.

Kiona: 47:32

Of course. Then the external struggles come, right?

Valerie: 47:36

I'm like what the heck oh my god, I was like I was fine. But the world is now not fine. yeah, I was in my third trimester when COVID happened, and we all have our COVID stories But I remember being a bit scared that, weren't letting spouses into the hospital they were kind of like these stories that I was hearing on the news and being so petrified because of my first NICU experience of like, I need to have Matt there with me. Like, I need to have my husband with me. Like, I cannot go through this otherwise. So I was very angry hearing those type of things, but otherwise I do remember it being therapeutic when I had a phone call with the doctor because we couldn't do face to face visits. So the doctor was like, Well, how are you feeling with all of this? And I said, I'm feeling fine, but I'm having a lot of emotions for my first with feeling lack of control And, you know, it was very therapeutic that, you know, it's funny that in my third pregnancy, I finally was able to kind of get that answer that I was waiting for for all of those years with my first. And she spent so much time with me on that phone call, reassuring me that there was absolutely nothing I did wrong in that pregnancy and that we don't know why babies do what they do. I'm very thankful. I don't remember that doctor's name, but I'm very thankful for her. And I think it was a therapeutic experience for me to like, I think heal with with doctors too, a bit, because I was angry a lot. I'm very glad for that. I mean, COVID had so many obviously challenges, but that was a very nice conversation that we would not have been able to have if we were in the exam room.

Kiona: 49:10

Right?Yeah . Pros and cons to cover, right? Pros and cons,

Valerie: 49:13

Oh, yeah. Pros and cons.

Kiona: 49:15

Yeah. So tell me what your labor looked like then with your third. Because with COVID being on the newer end of all the worries that were happening. So what did that look like for you?

Valerie: 49:28

It was bizarre because the world was falling apart. There were riots, there was all sorts of stuff happening at that point in time. I remember there were riots outside of the hospital when I was supposed to be induced, and it was the day before it was on the news. And I didn't want to be induced because I had such a beautiful experience really with my second. But she was getting kind of later on and with the riots, I was like, I have to like, I can't I don't know what's happening. Like the world is falling apart. Like I had just let me go to the hospital, So that was, I think, unexpected, that part of it. But it ended up being fine when I was induced up until the anesthesiologist said, Oh, Haiti, we're epidural now. And I said, Sure. And I think that was too early on because she was with they found out later on was face up. So she was taking a while to get out and I was completely numb and could not push. So they had to turn off the epidural. And they all say the third was the quickest and That was the slowest. And it was so painful because they turned off everything I was induced with the pitocin. I don't even know, like, I was like being medieval tortured. Like they finally put it back on. And then she was born and it was different because of COVID, like. There weren't as many people, which was nice in retrospect. I kind of liked that, but it was just different. So like there just people would come in and masks. They'd come in and leave But we were quickly taken to postpartum and there just wasn't as much. But I think also, again, because of the the times and all of that. But it was a really nice, like relaxing time where we I felt like I was trying to recharge and I kind of knew that that was helpful with my son that was able to do that. And with you third it is kind of like. a nice little stay where you have the other two at home and. Like we all can keep us there for a while. We're okay with that.

Kiona: 51:31

Right. Right. Get a little bit of a break before you have to just join in on the chaos.

Valerie: 51:35

Oh, y.

Kiona: 51:35

Right.

Valerie: 51:35

Oh, yes, yes. But that was so nice when we did it, because the kids couldn't come and meet her. at first I thought they would be able to. But because of COVID, they were not. So they met her all at home. But it was it was nice. I have like a nice video she just fit right into the family. very much know, crazy world time. But in time, though.

Kiona: 51:55

Oh, that sounds so awesome to be able to just have that memory, you know, capturing that video.

Valerie: 52:02

Yes, I'm glad I did, because, yeah, it was a few days after I was up and moving. So I had that video. shortly after she was born, I finally got on medicine for. Anxiety. I knew that I was going to, is not for everyone, but. It was so helpful. I felt like almost like,you put on a pair of glasses of like, this is how the world sees you. You don't have to be worrying about the. I still am very type-A and all of that, but it took the edge off enough and at that point, I was able to kind of gather my thoughts and all the writing that I did, and I was like, I want to do something with this. Like, we went through like such a bizarre thing, especially with my first that I learned so much about myself that I want to help other people and I want to write a book. I want to start a podcast. I want to take all this information and do something with it So that's when I really started doing that after my third.

Kiona: 53:00

why don't you tell us a little bit more about your podcast?

Valerie: 53:04

I thank you so much. really with my podcast, it was born out of me writing this book where I had everything written down. And I got to the point where I'm like, I'm going to publish this book. But then all these publishers said, No, you need a platform. And so I'm like, Well, how do I get a platform? And my husband said, Well, why don't you start a podcast? I did not know much about podcasts, but then started to learn about it. I listened to Andrew Huberman and loved his podcast, learn so much from it. You know what? I can do this so I really at the beginning of my podcast, which started about 18 months ago, I would talk about my experiences a bit and what I learned. Like Mental backroads. Mental Highway is an compassion, self-compassion, kind of tying a lot of my neurology and the books that I read throughout the last couple of years, cause I read so many books on like, how do you work with strong emotions? So I talked about that, but then I started interviewing guests and I really just loved doing that. I loved learning from other experts in different fields and so I do it once a week now and really have been enjoying that. So I still have my book, which I'm hoping to have that out by, later on this year or early next year. I also, like, write different things. Living in the moment again, like I was saying before.

Kiona: 54:24

And what's the title of your book?

Valerie: 54:26

maybe may tweak a little bit. But right now it's To Mom Is To Love. And for anyone who's listening on my website tomomistolove. com. There is a subscriber tab where I have a newsletter that I promise I do not spam. It's just for updates on when the book will come out and any podcast episodes. I send it twice a month and so I love it. If anything resonates with you to join on the list. I also have like a social media platform. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and also Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and a lot of this is just living life like embracing beautiful chaos because I think so much of the first couple of years, I was so scared and so much wanting to be this A-plus mom and feeling so much shame that once I, took off the scared glasses, and just seeing things in a different paradigm. I really wanted to share that with other people and uplift us because not every day is perfect. No day is really perfect, but some days are better than others. Some hours are better than others. And how can we as a community come together and say it's okay to not be okay, but we're going to be with you to support you? And here are the resources. Even though health care providers, like so many times you go to visit, there's just not much time. But if you listen to, you know, an episode or whatever about, you know, I'll have one with mental health, like I'll talk about grounding techniques or or something that we just don't have time to talk about, I just love to educate myself and other people I'm not sure at what point in time I looked up mother in the dictionary. It was during kind of this whole world when the first couple of years. So I wanted to know what mother actually meant. And I love the etymology of words. And it turned out to be a noun and a verb. And I really identified with that because I remember from day one in the hospital, people started calling me mom as soon as my baby was born. which is fine. My mom's a beautiful name, but it's not our only name. And I struggled for a long time to find my identity. And my identity was different once I became my mom, too. But I want us moms to know that We aren't just moms. We're ourselves. But we we also learn and we grow. And that's the whole thing of matrescence as we're developing along with our child. We're growing with our child. But the verb to mother, to mom, there's a definition for that. It's Merriam-Webster says, to care for protect, to give birth or allow one to rise. And if you think about what cares and protects what gives, birth allows one to rise, and that's love. And that really goes back to what that postpartum counselor said of doing the next right thing. I think about that in moments of anxiety or frustration or if I'm just in my own head, I think, can I live this moment right now in love? Can I live my verb? Or will I live in fear? You know, and I think so much of life, if we ask ourself that question, we truly can make a difference. And motherhood is so powerful. We have so much more power than I think we give ourselves credit for or that we realize. And five generations from now, you'll have approximately 30 descendants. And to think that that simple action right now of living in love or fear and to keep doing that and to give yourself that grace when you do live in fear and saying, you know what? I'm going to stop, but I'm going to do something about it the next day or the following day and having that growth mindset. Because I think for a long time I thought I was failing as a mom. Failing my Apgar score as a mom. But we're never failing. We're growing, We're always learning, we're always growing. It's planting those seeds of motherhood and our children, you know, thinking of them as little seeds. But we also have seeds that we're planting and with sunlight, soil, nourishment in all grows. And part of it's also stepping back and letting blood in control. Like love is really the only thing I control. At the end of the day, I can't control. I can't keep digging up the dirt. I can't keep arranging it so much that the flowers grow a certain way, like. Oh, and taking that step back. So that's very much my mission. And I would be honored for anyone to join in on this imperfection, journey Because moms, we're beautiful and I'm so proud of every single one of us because we are doing amazing things.

Kiona: 59:04

Yes, I agree 100%. We just do what we know

Valerie: 59:08

Yes.

Kiona: 59:08

and make mistakes along the way. And. Learn from their. with that said, I have just three final closing questions for you. And my first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth and postpartum?

Valerie: 59:28

being okay with the unexpected because you can plan as much as you can plan. And I think it's wonderful to plan. I certainly did it just knowing that, you know, it'll be okay. It'll be okay and Also to take pictures, take videos. You think you're going to remember all these things, but time just has a way of slipping by. And you don't remember those little giggles, those little baby smiles. As clearly as you. Did. And it's now that my kids are older, I'll sometimes look back and watch those videos and like, Oh, they were like cute as baby and like, I don't think I would have as clearer of a memory now of that. So that would be the the advice. And also, someday I do want someone to actually play push it. That song. I really wanted to do that. I had that in my playlist, so I'm totally playing Push it. But then that's not. So whenever

Kiona: 1:00:26

Yes.

Valerie: 1:00:26

he does reach out to me and I want to have you as a guest on my podcast. That.

Kiona: 1:00:32

That's so funny. Okay. So my next question is what is one resource that I can share with my listeners on your behalf? I will absolutely be sharing your podcast. Is there anything else that you would want me to share?

Valerie: 1:00:46

I will say so many resources, but the main one that sticks out for me is 1988. I think. More people need to know about that. It is a 24/7 service for suicide crisis hotline available in English and Spanish. Also, I think there's some international stuff as well, but it's just an incredible resource. Someone is always willing to talk without judgement. They don't ask for your name or anything like that. And I think that everyone should know about that resource available if you are in a situation where you really just feel like you need to talk with someone and.

Kiona: 1:01:22

Mm hmm. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I agree. It's really important to have that resource available to people, especially when they're feeling like they need it most. Like, for example, there's going to be some people that listen to this and don't need it right now. Right. But since that seat is planted and if they ever come into a situation where they feel like they need that kind of support, I need a super simple, super simple. So, Valerie, I have one last question for you. And this question is, if you could describe each of your births with one word, what would it be?

Valerie: 1:01:57

Yeah, the pregnancy. My first pregnancy would be anticipation and control. And then after delivery, joy and fear. My second, I would say bliss, And my third is I guess, therapeutic. That sounds so medical, but that's what

Kiona: 1:02:14

That's

Valerie: 1:02:14

I

Kiona: 1:02:14

okay.

Valerie: 1:02:14

would say. Yeah. So And I love I'm just going to give a little shout out to this company called the Little Word Projects, and they had like a NICU panel recently and. It was a beautiful, beautiful panel where I felt like I wasn't alone in this journey. And they had the little words bracelet, words. So I was able to like, make bracelets during that experience, and I just loved that. So for all three of them, I made a little bracelet and put their birthstone. And then I also have, like, a boy, mom and girl mom. And So. Yeah. Those are the things that come to my mind.

Kiona: 1:02:54

I know. Awesome. That's beautiful. That is so beautiful. So, Valerie, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. I know that there was a lot of processing in this and a lot of hard thinking, and I appreciate your vulnerability and going back and reliving these experiences with me and my listeners. So I appreciate you.

Valerie: 1:03:15

Thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you for everything that you're doing. This is so needed and to hear other people's birth stories and share with others. I really, truly am so thankful for what you're doing for your listeners and for the community.

Kiona: 1:03:32

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Outro: 1:03:46

During this interview with Valerie, I learned so much. The primary things that stuck out to me was that advocacy for yourself and your baby are extremely important. And the other thing is that it's okay to not be okay all the time, and it's okay to not be perfect because none of us are. And we just need to live in the lovely chaos. So, Valerie, thank you for passing along those positive messages and for sharing your birth stories with us. I am so honored that you decided to use my platform to share them. I'm sure that the listeners are going to be able to relate to your story as well. Speaking of the listeners, if you're listening to this right now, thank you. Because this is work and I love that you are listening. If you're listening that's showing me and telling me that you also enjoy these stories and you understand the importance of what sharing them actually means. So I would love for you to be in the birth as we know what podcast community on Facebook. And you can join that by going to birth as we know it. Podcast dot com forward slash community. Now don't forget if you liked this episode that you should also check out episode 44 with Martha Snyder where she talks about her three birth experiences as well. And how that led her to also being a resource for parents as a birth doula. If you want to check out the show notes for this episode or photos of Valerie, you can head over to birth as we know it. Podcast dot com forward slash seven one. All right, friends, it was great connecting with you today and I hope to do so again soon. Bye for now.