Birth As We Know It ™️-Birth Stories and Experiences

90-Deb & Norman Erb-White-Miscarriage-Adoption-Caleb, Patrick, Thomas, Cherish, Isiah & Emily

• Episode 90

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Deb and Norman share how they went from no kids to many through natural conception, also known as their DIY kids, and adoption. They also talk about how the emotions around experiencing pregnancy loss through miscarriages and how that impacts the emotions surrounding the following pregnancy. 

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Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.  

Tune in to episode 73-Lindsay Bruggeman-Adoptive Parent- 2 Births-1 Cesarean & 1 Vaginal & 79-Nicky Yazbeck-Adoptive Parent-1 Birth-Jack-The Connected Community Exploring Possibility

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Intro:

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.

Disclaimer:

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to be directed to your licensed provider.

Doula Audio:

Before we dive into this episode today, I have an exciting announcement. Your girl, Kiona Nessenbaum, is back in the birth space as a birth doula. So if you are local to the greater Seattle area and in need of some birth doula support, please reach out. I would love to support you as you transition into parenthood. To learn about this service, you can go to birthasweknowatpodcast.com forward slash doula. Another service that I'm offering is called Labor Prep from a Doula Perspective. Now this can be done virtually or in person, so it's also available to those that are not local to the greater Seattle area. What this is, is a two-hour info session where you and I connect and talk about the best ways to prep for your labor and to inform you of what your options are. We also touch on how you can cope throughout labor, how partners can support you as you are laboring, and we touch on postpartum. So if you want to learn more about this service, go to birthasweknowatpodcast.com forward slash labor prep. All right, let's dive into this episode.

Kiona:

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. I am super excited to have on Deb and Norman Herb White today, and they are going to be talking to us about their amazing family, which comes with many twists and turns of love and conception. So let's dive in. So welcome, Deb and Norman.

Norman:

Thank

Deborah:

Thank

Norman:

you.

Deborah:

you.

Kiona:

The first thing we're going to do is we have many stories to talk about today. So we are absolutely going to just dive right in to all the details. So first and foremost, we will be talking about Caleb. Let's talk about the conception process with Caleb. How was that for you guys?

Norman:

We have to take a step back, actually, because when we started dating, we made a decision that we were going to do adoption. Not a question of fertility. We just knew we wanted to do adoption. Two years into our marriage, we got trained as adoption. In the third year of marriage, we had an adoption placement. And tragically, that adoption placement fell through for us. We decided to pray a lot and figure out because we really knew we wanted to adopt. But we were like, we need to step back. And one of the things that we realized as we were heading towards 30, was like, we really need to think about if we're going to try the other way, is that we should probably do that. And that's when we started our journey with Caleb. It took us almost two years to conceive. Adoption has always been a part of the story, even before we started conceiving. So I thought it was one of those things that helps us frame the idea of who we are as parents.

Kiona:

Yeah, that's actually a really important part. And I'm actually really appreciative that you mentioned that because your parenting journey started before conception.

Deborah:

Right.

Norman:

Yep.

Deborah:

It was also losing an adoption was really difficult because it was like having a miscarriage, but the child is still there and with another parent. So that made it really hard.

Kiona:

Yeah, I can only imagine the emotional toll that comes from that. It's kind of like a bait and switch, you know,

Norman:

You

Kiona:

like.

Norman:

did it very well.

Kiona:

Yeah. So after that fall through with that adoption, what was the process that was going through your head emotionally?

Deborah:

The year that it happened, we had just gone through, I think my mom died first and then your dad. And then.

Norman:

And then my uncle,

Deborah:

And

Norman:

the

Deborah:

then

Norman:

mother.

Deborah:

his uncle and his grandmother died. And then that was also the same year. So it was like one of the two years in our life that we would never want to do again.

Kiona:

Transitioning from that heavy emotional year. What was the mental process where you went into conception?

Norman:

I think one of the things we did talk about, if we want to think about now conceiving, we probably should do that because then if we don't conceive, we can circle around and think about the adoption again. You know, it wasn't a, oh, if we don't conceive, it's the worst thing in the world. We just try to put in the hands of God and saying, hey, let's try this out and see if we can have a baby.

Deborah:

I don't really remember what specifically was going through my head, but I know that we always wanted to have a blended family of both DIY kids and adopted kids. In the end, it turned out to be a good decision because of the role that our DIY kids have played in welcoming our adopted kids.

Kiona:

Let's go ahead and dive into the conception time of Caleb then. How was that for you all?

Deborah:

It was kind of frustrating because it was like month after month of trying and nothing happening. And we were praying a lot. We had gotten to the point where we said, like, if this doesn't happen, then we're just going to give up, you know, and then like shortly after that is when it actually happens.

Kiona:

And you had set a tick, you guys, about two years to conceive Caleb.

Deborah:

Almost two years.

Norman:

Yep. Almost two years.

Kiona:

Talk to me a little bit about what your pregnancy with Caleb was like.

Deborah:

Don't remember a whole lot of it because this was like, what, 25 years ago. I know I gained a lot of weight. I didn't cross over 200 as 199 pounds, but I was really skinny when I started, so that was a lot of weight for me. I remember it being uncomfortable. I had heartburn. I had sciatica. I remember just like wanting it to be over.

Kiona:

With all of that pain, usually people, by the time they get to the end of their pregnancy, are so ready to have the baby out of their body. So when it came to labor for Caleb, what was happening? What was going through your mind?

Deborah:

I started leaking amniotic fluid, so, like, I didn't actually go into labor. Like, I went to the hospital and they tested it and said it was amniotic fluid, and they started to clock, and, you know, when you get to so many, I don't remember how many hours it is, but, like, they start inducing labor, so they started giving me Pitocin. I was fine. I was, like, handling it fine, but the labor nurse kept coming in and saying, are you sure you don't want an epidural? The contractions are just gonna get more painful. You should get an epidural, and she wore me down, and I ended up getting an epidural, and I really regretted it afterwards.

Kiona:

When you're in a place where you can't really advocate for yourself or even truly say what your desires are, it's very easy to be like, okay, whatever. Like, you continue to put into my mind that this is painful or hard.

Deborah:

Right, and the ironic thing is I wasn't really in a lot of pain. I was like, this is no big deal. I didn't think it was that painful.

Kiona:

And so, Norman, what was going through your mind when she was going through labor with Caleb?

Norman:

I think, for me, it was just watching her get worn down and trying to do what's best for her and listening to the advice of the nurses and saying, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. This is my first time. You know, what am I, you know, I'm here. We, you know, we planned. We'd gone all the classes. We had our focus there. We had all the things we wanted. And yet, you know, just watching her slowly get worn down and more worn down and more. It's just watching her just get exhausted.

Kiona:

Yeah, I imagine. And I have been told by many partners that it's so hard to watch their loved one go through such intense labor because you feel a little bit helpless. Like, you try as much as you can to make them comfortable. But then there's that part of, you know, that you can't control everything or you can't really help with everything. And it's just happening.

Norman:

I think one of the things I've learned since having a son who had illness is that I now can, and it's something that took me having to do it is I can now tell medical people what I think and what I want to done. I've had to do it for my son. Like, had it been that person 26 years ago, but no, you know, let's listen to what she wants. Let's do it. And that wasn't that person then, obviously.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Norman:

I wish I hadn't been that person.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Norman:

To be able to just, you know, you know, go toe to toe with a medical person, because that's how we're trained is non medical people's, oh, you need to trust the medical person, they know what they're doing. Versus no, I know what we want. We can do, you know, it's not, it's not that you're always going to go toe to toe, but you'd be willing to advocate for yourself to the point where you're not just caving in on something you will regret.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah. Once you went through the labor with Caleb, what sticks out to you?

Deborah:

To me, it was like, my whole left side was paralyzed from the epidural. When he was trying to come out, he kept bumping up against my tailbone. The nurses are like, can you get up on your hands and knees? And I said, no, my left side is paralyzed. I can't get on my hands and knees. So that was immensely frustrating. So the doctor ended up using one forcep under their head. And obviously, you have to have an episiotomy for that, and then like, lifted them out over my tailbone. So that made recovery extremely painful. So that's how Caleb ended up coming into the world. And we were both exhausted. When Caleb came out, Caleb looked sleepy. I was like, completely worn out. I didn't really care about anything after that for a little while.

Kiona:

Yeah. Norman, do you remember what was going through your head or how you were feeling when you were watching them use the forceps to get Caleb out?

Norman:

I just was praying that both she and he would be safe. And when he came out, he looked good. And so it was more of a relief at that point for both of them.

Kiona:

Yeah, that makes sense. When it comes to that postpartum moment, what was your feeding choices at that time? Were you deciding to breastfeed? Were you bottle feeding?

Deborah:

Yeah, so I wanted to breastfeed. And I really didn't know what I was doing like any new mother. And Caleb was born on, what, Saturday? So they didn't have a lactation consultant until Monday. They were clicking their tongue. And it was pretty painful. But by the time I actually got to see a lactation consultant, it was already a habit. And it took forever to break that habit. I think that most hospitals nowadays have a lactation consultant available even on the weekends. But back then, it wasn't a thing, I guess. So feeding was a rocky start.

Kiona:

Did Caleb have a tongue tie at all? Or were they just struggling with the flux of their tongue?

Deborah:

I don't think they had a tongue tie. Like, they finally figured it out after a while.

Kiona:

Nice. Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. And after you guys had Caleb... Around what time did you guys start thinking about conceiving again because Patrick came next?

Deborah:

We didn't think about it. We were barely even doing anything intimate because of all the pain. And when Caleb was about six months old, they like started to refuse nursing and I was like, that's weird. And Norm said, are you pregnant? I said, I hope not. I got a pregnancy test and it was positive and I started crying because like, I couldn't imagine going through all that again with as much pain I was, I was in the first time around.

Norman:

One of my favorite stories of that time and about that is that we went to the pharmacy and this is back when you couldn't get dollar tests. You'd have to go into pharmacy and spend some money and she's going up and this kid, was it a kid, maybe 17, 18, maybe even 20 said, I hope it

Kiona:

way you

Norman:

comes

Kiona:

want

Norman:

out

Kiona:

it.

Deborah:

Yeah. That was, that was super sweet. He said, I hope it comes out the way you want it to.

Kiona:

That is sweet.

Norman:

At that time we didn't even know what we wanted to be honest because after, you know, really difficult birth, et cetera, it's like, yeah, we don't know what we want at this point.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah.

Norman:

I mean, they're 15 months apart.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's one thing that some people don't realize that you are extremely fertile right after you have a baby. I've mentioned this in past episodes, but my mom came back to her eight week visit

Deborah:

me.

Kiona:

pregnant with So,

Norman:

Oh my God.

Kiona:

yeah, I'm like, I don't know. You guys were kind of crazy. My parents are doing stuff way too soon in my opinion,

Deborah:

but

Kiona:

I'm happy I'm here. I'll say that. But so tell me a little bit more about your thoughts when you found out, oh my gosh, I am pregnant. What's happening here?

Deborah:

Like I said, I cried. It was frightening, overwhelming. I felt overwhelmed.

Norman:

Right. Cause you know, we were thinking, no, two, three, give some space. Let us, let's become, figure out what it is to mean to parent to one child.

Deborah:

Right. And remember at this time, our plan was to like, maybe have a baby and then go back to the adoption process. We thought let's, you know, get this one off the ground, literally. And then, and then we could start working,

Kiona:

Yeah.

Deborah:

you know, like working on the next step. And once it all settled in, we were excited, you know, but it just took a bit.

Norman:

I think because it took us two years to conceive Caleb, like, oh, we got time on our hands, time to think. And we realize if, you know, we go back in adoption, we have to go through the training again, get all our clearances, et cetera. So we're like, we've got time. Let's take, you know, take it nice and relaxed and do what we need to

Kiona:

Trying to settle into having one and then boom,

Norman:

do.

Kiona:

another one's on the way. Yeah. So how, if at all, was your pregnancy with Patrick any different?

Deborah:

Lots of ways. So like I gained a ton of weight with Caleb, with Patrick, I actually lost weight because I was nauseous, like 24 seven called it morning, noon and night sickness. Cause it was just like all the time. And then I was talking to somebody on the phone and, you know, cause we had a toddler, I had a baby gate up. I was trying to step over the baby gate and I fell down and I called the OB office and they said, well, come in and we'll put you on a non-stress test or whatever. And so like they put me on the monitor, I was picking up like regular contractions, which I'm pretty sure right now were Braxton Hicks. But at the time I had never felt labor. So I didn't know the difference. They ended up sending me to like a women's hospital and putting me on like mag and giving me steroid shots. And like, just, you know, you have to rest. You have like, you don't want to go into labor. It was early, that kind of thing. And I had not done like the glucose tolerance test. So they ended up doing that while I was in the hospital, which of course ended up being positive because they'd give me steroids, you know? So like that affects your blood sugar. And they started making me like test my blood sugar after every meal and stuff like that. So they diagnosed me gestational diabetic and all this stuff. And they said like, if we got to his due date and he wasn't born yet, that we were going to have to induce and all this. And like, which I absolutely did not want at that point because of the, you know, the negative experience with Caleb.

Kiona:

When you went in, how long did you stay in the hospital for the remainder of your pregnancy?

Norman:

Two weeks in the hospital, bed rest for the rest of the pregnancy.

Deborah:

Well, until like we got to 36 weeks or whatever. Yeah.

Kiona:

Okay. So until you got like full term or term is

Deborah:

Right.

Kiona:

you were, you had to be on bed rest.

Deborah:

Right.

Kiona:

Okay. How did that impact your ability to parent your toddler? Yeah.

Deborah:

That is a good question. Cause I don't really remember too much of that.

Norman:

Oh, I, I,

Deborah:

yeah, you can. I can,

Norman:

I basically had two people. I had to take care of one on bed rest and one was a toddler. And so when the toddler was asleep between four and seven with understanding Deb could do a few minor things, I would come home, take care of both of them for that remaining, what, 14 weeks or 12 weeks, whatever it was. And so I always said now I'm now the single parent of two and I wasn't being mean to her, but because she need to be on bed rest. It was scary because for me, it was that I didn't know if, you know, I would get to see Patrick or not. And so the entire pregnancy after her fall was always a stress of worrying about Patrick being born or being NICU, et cetera. But it's that I was taking care of both of them. She was fortunate enough that her, her job allowed her to work remote, which is really unusual. So consider this was now what the early two thousands. And that was one of those things we were aiming for that magic number of 36, you know, once we crossed our bottom line, like for me, at least.

Kiona:

Yeah. Goodness. Like, first off. Good job, Norman on doing what you do. Because that's a lot. Like, you know, it sounds like kind of quote unquote simple right now, but like you did that for 14 weeks, right? You were adjusting all of the things that you needed to adjust in order to accommodate the needs of Deb and Caleb. And Deb, I know, I can only imagine how challenging it was for you in the time as well to like, not be able to do things and to see that Norman is struggling a little bit and to be like, I'm sorry, like this is, I, you know, have that little bit of guilt that you're carrying as well. Um, and so great job on getting through it for both of you.

Norman:

We had some good support. Like for instance, when she went to the hospital, my brother had just moved back there. And so when she went to the hospital for the two weeks that she was most of the two weeks, she was in the hospital. My brother had my son.

Kiona:

I love to hear that you guys had a really strong support system and that you were able to lean into family and to like, make sure that all bases were covered. I think that's really nice. So when you reach that 36 week point with Patrick's pregnancy, what changed?

Norman:

You could get out of bed.

Deborah:

Yes.

Norman:

You could pick, you let yourself hold your baby more often and things like that. You could start, you know, doing things you wanted to do again. No.

Deborah:

Yeah.

Kiona:

And how soon after your ability to get out of bed and feel somewhat normal in your body again, did you actually end up going into labor?

Deborah:

On his due date, I went into labor about 420 in the morning and he was born at 508.

Kiona:

Wow.

Deborah:

In the morning.

Kiona:

Wait, so that was like 508 as in like less than an hour later?

Norman:

Yes.

Deborah:

Yes.

Kiona:

Whoa.

Deborah:

And remember, like we lived, we lived 20 minutes from the hospital. He had to call his brother to meet us at the hospital to get Caleb because we didn't have, we couldn't just leave him at home. And so we like, I woke him up. He called his brother. We got in the car. We headed to the hospital, got settled into labor and delivery. His brother arrived. He went. And at this point, we had pagers. We didn't have cell phones yet. And so he had his pager. And he said, if anything happens, call, you know, page me 999. So like I was getting all settled in and I said, like the contractions were getting a little intense. And I said, I think I'm ready for some like pain relief now. I know I didn't want an epidural, but I was going to get something. And they checked me and they're like, no, you're not getting an epidural because you're, you're almost ready to push. So I called his pager, dialed 999 and he ran back to the room and he got to the room just as they paged the doctor. The doctor ran in, they got me all set up and like I was ready to push. And I started pushing. Patrick came out in three pushes. It would have been one push, but my bladder was full. So they like straight calf me. And then the doctor said that the umbilical cord was around his neck. He said, stop pushing. I'm like, okay, that's easier said than done. And then he turned and looked at the nurse and said, catch him. And Norm like passed out because not getting enough sleep, not getting anything to eat and then running back with the adrenaline. And then he heard the doctor say like the cord was around the baby's neck and he just like passed out. So

Kiona:

did you get caught, Norman? Did you hit the ground or did you get caught?

Norman:

No, the nurse, I was, I actually slumped into the nurse apparently. And she gently put me on the ground.

Kiona:

Okay. Okay.

Norman:

So that was just good. I'm glad I wasn't having to be both in the hospital for a head injury.

Kiona:

Right.

Norman:

So there's that.

Deborah:

So, like, after Patrick was born, and Norm can tell you, there was, like, betadine, like, splattered all over the wall behind the doctor.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Deborah:

It was, like, it went that fast. And then Patrick was born, like, this is, like, completely the opposite of Caleb. Patrick was born screaming for food. And wouldn't stop screaming until he got to nurse, so, uh.

Norman:

And the thing was, because she was just recovering, she reopened her episiotomy, they wanted to sew her up before they let her nurse. And so I'm sitting here for 20 minutes as they're sewing her back up, and this screaming child, just inconsolable. And finally, I hand over Patrick to Deb when they let her, and he just latches on. And Patrick was a natural, if I remember. And you were new what you were doing, too, obviously, a little bit both. We always joked about it, he, he, because of her, because of her diet in the last 10 months, et cetera, and he, he just waiting for food.

Kiona:

Yeah. You did, you lost a lot of weight, right? And

Norman:

He

Kiona:

so.

Norman:

was

Deborah:

Yeah.

Norman:

hungry.

Deborah:

Yeah. After Patrick was born, and I got, you know, sewn up, and he got to nurse, and then they took him away to do whatever they do, I was actually able to walk down there. Which was amazing, considering, like, the first time I, like, couldn't even move, you know.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah.

Deborah:

So.

Kiona:

So, completely different outcomes, you know. Sounds like Patrick did not need forceps.

Norman:

Mm-hmm.

Deborah:

Mm-mm.

Kiona:

Yeah, he just came right out, right?

Deborah:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Okay, he was ready. What, was there a big size difference between Caleb and Patrick?

Deborah:

Caleb was longer, but weighed less, and Caleb was 7 pounds, 13 ounces, Patrick was 8 pounds, 13 ounces.

Kiona:

Wow.

Deborah:

And Caleb was 21 inches, and Patrick was 20 inches. Or is it, no, the other way around, sorry. So, Caleb was long and skinny with a big head.

Kiona:

He was a lollipop.

Norman:

Yep.

Deborah:

Yes.

Kiona:

With Patrick, you also breastfed. Did he wean himself at 6 months, or did he stay latched?

Deborah:

No. He.

Norman:

I'm sorry.

Deborah:

started reaching for food when he was just a few months old. Like, I don't remember exactly.

Norman:

He

Deborah:

About 6, 5 or 6 months, like.

Norman:

He started reaching for food.

Deborah:

He didn't want, like, he didn't want that nonsense. He's like, I want real food.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Deborah:

So, but, like, I always joke that from the time he was born until he was about two to three years old, he cried every morning until he got fed.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome, though. It sounds like he came out strong and stayed strong in all his desires. He definitely let you guys know what he wanted.

Deborah:

Right.

Kiona:

Yeah, I think that's awesome. You guys have more children. So, at what point did you all decide or find out about the conception of your third, which is Thomas?

Norman:

There, we made the decision to take a time off and we went to seminary. At that point, Caleb was two and Patrick was one. And we made the decision to do our best. Not to get pregnant, but we're not not trying, if that makes any sense.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Norman:

But it was a really intentional, let's be a small family together. And there's this phenomenon at grad schools, especially at seminaries, where young couples have lots of babies. In fact, I remember one of my colleagues referring to the married student housing as the fertile crescent.

Kiona:

Well, okay.

Norman:

Young married student. And I remember sitting across my senior year and I had one of my colleagues who, one of two colleagues who this happened, who was pregnant with their second baby in three years, looking at me going, Norman, you guys didn't have a baby. And I'm like, yeah, I noticed that. And it wasn't intentional, but we both realized we just didn't feel, wanted to have children at that moment. But when we graduated and I had gotten back from a military training, we really prayed and talked about it some. And we were making a decision, hey, let's look at both thinking about adoption and both. And so we started trying for the one and thinking, okay, if it doesn't happen, then we'll do the adoption thing. Well, we got fairly quickly after we started trying with Thomas, right? It wasn't long.

Deborah:

Yeah. You leave out the part about after Patrick was born, we actually talked about getting a vasectomy

Norman:

Yes,

Deborah:

because

Norman:

we did.

Deborah:

we thought we were done having babies and we were just going to adopt the rest of our kids. But we changed our mind, obviously.

Norman:

Actually, I did a consult even.

Kiona:

Wow. And so when you guys found out you were pregnant with Thomas, what was going through your mind?

Norman:

We were really joyful. I mean, it was interesting because we had a, at that point with a four and a five-year-old, we're moving anew to a new home and all sorts of things like that. And just being able to have them have the joy of knowing that I had a younger sibling on the way.

Kiona:

Yeah, beautiful. And same question for the pregnancy with Thomas. What, if anything at all, was different about Thomas's pregnancy? Compared to the other two.

Deborah:

For the most part, it was probably more similar to Patrick's in that I didn't gain a lot of weight. I was, you know, nauseous a lot of the time. When we got closer to the end, my amniotic fluid was low. So they kind of encouraged us to do what we could to try to get him to come sooner versus later, just because of the low amniotic fluid. So the main difference there, I guess, would be that I went to a midwife instead of an OB doctor.

Kiona:

Okay. And so was this an in-hospital midwife?

Deborah:

No, it's a pre-standing birth center.

Kiona:

Nice.

Deborah:

I wanted a natural birth in, like, a home-like setting. I didn't want all kinds of medical interventions that weren't needed. So that's why I chose to go to the midwife center.

Kiona:

With your pregnancy being similar to Patrick's, I'm assuming there's no bed rest this time?

Deborah:

Correct.

Kiona:

Beautiful. Beautiful. So healthy, mobile, just a little nauseous. At what point did you realize that you were going into labor with Thomas?

Deborah:

I started feeling contractions. I decided, like, I was going to go for a walk around the block and see. I didn't want to do, like, the whole false labor stuff and whatnot. So I'm like, I'll go around the block twice. If it stops, then we're good. If not, we're going to the midwife center. So I walked around the block twice. And by the time I got done, like, there were good, strong, steady contractions. So I was like, okay, we got to go. It was very different birth from the other two because I was surrounded by loved ones. I felt extremely supported. I had, that was, that was the guru and midwife, too. Like, she, she was, like, very experienced. She was, like, very close to retirement. And, like, she felt my belly when I came in. And she guessed his weight within an ounce.

Kiona:

That's experience right there.

Deborah:

Yeah. So, like, she, she was amazing. The labor nurse kept coming in and, like, checking the heartbeat and everything was good. I had serious back labor. Like, that was intense. Yeah, I didn't realize that he was sunny side up. But they had, like, a whirlpool tub.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Deborah:

And I sat in that and that helped a lot. At one point, I had to turn off the jets because it was just overstimulating. But, like, being in the water helped so much. And when I had to get out to go to the bathroom, it was, like, so intense. And then, like, the midwife center would not allow water birth. So I had to, like, get out of the tub. And, like, once I was out of the tub, it was so intense. Just this primal, I don't know how to describe it. But the midwives checked me. I wasn't, like, I wasn't effaced enough and dilated enough. So she said, like, you know, try not to push because it would inflame my cervix. And then, you know, I would have a more difficult time trying to deliver him. So they put me on the bed. And she told me to do, like, grunty breathing. So I was doing, like, this grunty breathing that helped a lot. And just being in the bed, lying on my back helped a lot with the back labor, the pressure on my back. And I was kind of, you know, after the fact, was kind of disappointed because, like, I went to the midwife center so I could try different positions. And I ended up being on my back like the other two. But, like, it was the only position that was really comfortable besides being in the water, which I couldn't do.

Kiona:

During that time with the birth, what do you feel was the biggest difference from when Patrick and Caleb were being birthed versus when Thomas was being birthed? Like, how was, was the energy different? Like, was, did the environment make a big difference for you?

Deborah:

It made a huge difference. It's like, I felt supported. I felt listened to. I felt comfortable. Like, I mean, not, not physically comfortable, but emotionally comfortable. Physically, I did not feel comfortable at all, but it was completely different. It was like being at a, you know, in home versus being in a hospital or, you know, like a clinical setting or, you know, like a clinical setting. From all through my pregnancy and the birth experience, I had the midwife's attention. You know what I mean? You go to an OB and you're there for like, you see the doctor maybe for two or three minutes and everything looks clinically good and you're gone. The midwife would sit and have a conversation with you about how things are going, how you're eating, how you're feeling, all that kind of stuff.

Kiona:

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. So Norman, how did it feel different for you?

Norman:

What I realized at one point, Deb had a, she had the nurse, she had our, our friend there and the labor nurse and et cetera. And there was, everybody was surrounding her and I was sitting there going, all these women knew exactly what to do to help her. And I was like, I am so confused. And it wasn't a bad thing. And I realized, you know, it's only within the last 30, 40 years of men have been in the birth room up until the industrial And this was something that was done by all exclusively by women. And with good reason. A woman, when she would give birth, her village, her mother, her sisters, her cousins would all come and help her. And it was at that moment and it was beautiful in the sense that I felt alien, but I realized this is what birth has been out for centuries where women got together, helped each other out and brought babies into the world. And I thought it was such a beautiful thing. And I'm like, I don't belong here. And that's not saying I didn't, wasn't welcome, but I realized I was a guest in a place that I, that really where women would get together and bring children to the world. And I was, I felt honored

Kiona:

and

Norman:

of course having the boys, having the children there, et cetera. I mean, the joke was that when she knew she was going into labor, Deb looked over at me and said, put on a

Kiona:

them

Norman:

DVD for because she's knew she, a lot of what she's doing would probably scare them a little. So he ended up bringing a DVD player so they can watch. But it was such a different, you know, that being led into that world where this home world where a woman's giving birth was wonderful, I'd say.

Kiona:

Yeah. I think that makes total sense. And to feel that little bit of like alienation does make sense. And I think that it has to do with the fact that not necessarily that men or partners are not welcomed in the space. It's more that it's new and they have to find out where they fit in the space, right? It's newer. And some partners need a little bit more guidance than others. And that's totally fine because it's absolutely an adjustment process. There's still this transition happening where partners are more at the bedside and being supportive of their laboring partners, which is amazing. So I think it's great that you were present at all of the births of your babies.

Deborah:

We also had Caleb and Patrick at the birth, which was a very different experience also. And I think, I don't remember which one it was, but one of them said afterwards, mom pooped out a baby.

Norman:

It was Patrick. It was Patrick.

Kiona:

Love that. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. It's the way that, you know, young kiddos can kind of understand the process of what's happening. Did Thomas breastfeed as well?

Deborah:

Yes, he breastfed for almost two years.

Kiona:

So was he the longest then at that point?

Deborah:

Emily also breastfed for almost two years.

Kiona:

Okay. But up until that point, as the third, he was the one that went beyond the six-month mark.

Deborah:

Right.

Kiona:

Awesome. Awesome.

Deborah:

Part of that with Caleb and Patrick was that, I mean, other than being pregnant, when I was, you know, nursing Caleb, like, I was also pumping because I was working full-time.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Deborah:

And I wasn't working full-time when I was pregnant with Thomas. I was working part-time. So, like, I was able to pretty much exclusively breastfeed him. He never drank out of a bottle. We couldn't even get him to drink out of a bottle. He had to go straight to a cup, like when he was old enough to drink out of a cup, but he wouldn't take a bottle.

Kiona:

Yeah. He's like, that nipple

Deborah:

is

Kiona:

not what I'm used to.

Deborah:

All right.

Kiona:

When you guys were trying for Thomas, you guys were also going through the adoption process of getting ready for all of that. Did that go to a

Deborah:

Well,

Kiona:

pause?

Deborah:

we were thinking about it.

Norman:

Because it means finding an agency, figuring out who you want to go with, et cetera.

Kiona:

And so after Thomas, how far down the line was it before you adopted Cheris and Isaiah?

Norman:

Okay. The placement was almost three years later. And the running joke was, I don't think we were not trying, Matt. We were trying. We just said, okay, I think we're done doing this baby thing. Let's go have a, let's do this adoption thing. Because at that point we knew we wanted a large family and knew we were getting old. And once it, let's get the adoption thing done. That's, I think that was at least my logic. Would you agree with that?

Deborah:

Yeah, I mean, we knew that we still wanted to adopt, so we decided that was a good time to start the adoption process. And it was, interestingly, almost 10 months between when we started the process and when they moved into our house. So it was like, it was almost like giving birth.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Deborah:

Because, you know, you kind of start out with the idea and then you're like working towards it. And then eventually, like, you meet the person and they move into your house, you know.

Kiona:

Yeah. And so my question is, when you did get adoption placement with Cherish, did Isaiah come along right away as well?

Deborah:

They were a sibling group.

Kiona:

Got it.

Norman:

We have a really big house and we knew that we hadn't room enough for a sibling pair. Both Deb and I are from large families. I have five siblings, she has four. And when they had given us the profile for Cherish and Isaiah, we knew that that's who we wanted.

Deborah:

We were in the running for two sets of siblings and one was a couple of girls and they had, I think, five or six families that were interested in them. And then there was Cherish and Isaiah. And Isaiah had a neurological condition. So they had been living with their foster mother for two and a half years and had not had anybody interested in adopting them. There were people interested in adopting her because she was healthy, but not both of them.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Deborah:

So, you know, when we prayed about it, it didn't take much to decide, like, we really should consider taking them. We knew that there was risk because I looked up his diagnosis, which is generalized dystonia. And when I looked it up, the statistics were, like, 25% improve, 50% plateau after a certain point, and then 25%, like, degenerate and then pass away. So we knew that we were taking a risk. You know, we could potentially lose him. And we decided that if that were the case, at least we could give him a good life up until that point. It was a tough decision, but we knew that we had, you know, the love to offer. So that's when, you know, we decided to move ahead with, to say no to the girls and to move ahead with Isaiah and Cherish.

Kiona:

I think that's beautiful. And it sounds like you had some really good intention behind this adoption process with, you know, deciding what boundaries you wanted to have and then also what you were willing to be flexible on. And I think that that's really important. And it says a lot about how you guys are as people. It's like, you guys are not looking for perfection. You guys are looking for love and family and people to care for and people to love on. And everybody deserves love. And for them to be able to come into your family and get that is extremely amazing and fortunate as well. They're very fortunate to have you guys as parents.

Norman:

We also say the opposite, though, because people tell us that we're like, no, we're really, really blessed to have those two. I'm so grateful they've come into our lives. I mean, those two just made us so have given us so much beauty in our lives.

Kiona:

We did touch on something that I do want you guys to share with the listeners is Isaiah is no longer with us. And so how was that process for you all?

Norman:

I think would have helpful just saying this because it's important to bring this up is that about a year into after we adopted. No, it's about six months after the adoption, he had a medical mishap, given the wrong drugs and took a turn for the worse. Really changed our lives in the sense of we were oftentimes at the local children's hospital for good periods of time. I mean, on top of it, then Deb got really, really ill because then she actually got a MRSA pneumonia where it took her out for almost a month.

Deborah:

Well, it, I mean, it took me a year to recover from it. It was more than a month. It was about eight weeks because, or at least six weeks because I was on that IV drip being in the hospital with Isaiah and having these like crisis after crisis. It just, like I was on high cortisol, like for weeks, weeks and weeks, it did a number on my immune system, my body, like it was not fun.

Norman:

The conception of Emily was an utter surprise to us. What ended up happening after she was born was we had two helpless human beings we were dealing with and we were overwhelmed as a family unit. And we were blessed and I say this, we, you know, I don't know how many visits the ICU we had an ICU attending doctor who pulled us aside one time and said so seeing what we were going through and said to us, you know, you really need to start focusing on your other children. And it was at that moment we had to sit back and pray, and we blessedly were able to make the decision that we can't do this by ourselves, and we ended up putting him in a pediatric facility, because his needs were well beyond our ability to take care of. And we had to step back and put him in a facility and then start refocusing being parents to the other four, like five, sorry. Fortunately, we had the blessing of some people saying to us, you need to take care of yourselves. And this is one of those things I tell people who have special needs kids. You have to take care of yourself. You need to learn how to step back. There were times during when we were in the ICU where he was going through moments of distress where people would see me sitting there playing on my phone, and I don't think they were mad at me, but they're kind of He's going, "Why is he doing?" He's like, "No, I have to step back because if I go into—if I try to engage him, I will go into his processes and spheres, and I had to be the person being—the one making the decisions. And I had to be step back and be ready to be, you know, the long haul of what we need to do while we're at the ICU, that kind of thing." And so, for the last five years of his life, he lived in a facility and actually improved. We were able to—we actually had a good team. We were able to—he had a secondary dysautonomia, and we were able to get that under control. And he had some real—he had stabilized and was—in his facility, stabilized and did really well. Before we had really gotten this dysautonomia under control, we were told that if we couldn't get it under control, he wasn't—he was not keeping food down. He was not—he was not—he was not going to survive, and we actually had to put him into hospice. And through that process, he told us—and this was the beauty of this spectacular little boy, little man—says, no, I don't want to come home. I want to be in my facility to die. And I'm like, that just blew us away, because we were going to make it happen at home. And he made that decision. And Isaiah, in 2014, the medical team pulled a miracle out of a hat and stabilized him.

Deborah:

They called it a Hail Mary pass. It was like they decided to try a medication that they weren't sure if it was going to work.

Norman:

We're like, no, we don't want to. We're going to let go. It's time to let go. And she said, no, we're going to try this one more thing. And it worked. I bring this all up because we're going through all this trauma. Other children are developmentally being—not ignored, but not getting the attention they need, honestly.

Deborah:

With me being sick like that, it forced us to kind of switch up how we were doing things so that, you know, like Norm would sometimes be the primary person to go to the hospital instead of me. We really learned to work as a team at that point.

Kiona:

That makes so much sense. And I just want to commend both of you for kind of taking the punches, you know, because at that point, you're just going with the flow because there's not really options. You had to do what you had to do in order to provide for your family. And I do think that it's amazing that the doctor pulled you both aside and said, hey, I think it's time to also start paying attention to the other kiddos because that means that he, as a provider, was considering the whole picture, not just Isaiah at that time, but everybody.

Norman:

Because we live in Pittsburgh, it's a teaching hospital. And watching the residents and especially them training the residents, etc., watching them take care of the—you know, the residents doing a lot of hands-on stuff, but watching them really just guide these young men and women into this new life. And when things like this could happen, they could pull parents aside. Be very wise. It was a blessing because I know that that doesn't happen to a lot of hospitals, but we were blessed to have that kind of experience and empathy in that unit.

Kiona:

As you were going through all of this with Isaiah, how was Cherish adjusting to being part of the family as well?

Norman:

This was the beauty of having, especially the two oldest, but it also worked for Thomas, too, that they did a lot of the heavy lifting in regards to making the children feel welcome. And it was wonderful because, in some ways, I said, it was nice having a family unit established because we said the rules that apply to Caleb and Patrick and Thomas apply to Cherish and Emily. And it was the boundaries. You know, these are who we are and what we do. This is how we work. And Isaiah took to it like a fish to water. It was—my favorite story about that was we were doing one of the home visits. We had done a visit to the park, and Cherish was exhausted and needed to go home and get a nap. And Isaac's like, no, I want to hang out with the boys. I really like hanging out with the boys. Early fall, when you got in a hotel with an outside pool, and the two, three boys were like, oh, this is fine, jumping in and out and everything. Isaiah was going to jump in and out. What we did not know about Isaiah, because of his disease, he had no body fat, and he didn't know how to swim. But he wanted to be with one of the boys. I had to reach in and grab him.

Deborah:

Yeah, so he jumped in the water, and his head went under, and Nor reached down, grabbed him by the shirt, pulled him up, and he was, like, shivering, and he had this huge grin

Norman:

face.

Deborah:

on his

Norman:

His lips are blue, but...

Kiona:

This says a lot about how you guys are as people and as parents, right? So you guys are the examples that these kiddos, that your children, are living by. And so they see that you guys are accepting, and loving, and caring of everyone, and they're doing the same. And that doesn't mean it doesn't come with challenges, because I'm sure that there are plenty. But it's the understanding of, we got this. We can do this. So, I think that's great. We kind of talked a little bit about Emily, but I would love to talk about the conception of Emily, because it sounds like she came unexpectedly in the middle of a bunch of, like, a bunch of hard times.

Deborah:

I mean, we did have four miscarriages prior to Emily, so that was a big part of the story, because especially the last one was at 17 weeks. And after having three other losses, like, I was holding off till the second trimester to, like, tell people, because I didn't want to have to go through it again of, like, Oh, yeah. Well, we're not pregnant anymore. We lost the baby, whatever. So, like, once we hit the second trimester, we started, like, telling friends. And I went to the midwife. They checked the heartbeat. I could feel them moving, all that. And then, like, that very same evening, I started having contractions. And I called the midwife. I'm like, you know, something's not right. It feels like I'm having contractions. And the midwife said, you know, you're probably miscarrying, and there's nothing we can do about it. I ended up miscarrying at home, and then I had, like, hemorrhaging, and I had to get an ambulance and go to the hospital. So, like, when Emily was conceived, it didn't register for a long, long time. I didn't even go to the midwife until after, like, until well into the second trimester, because I, you know, I didn't think it was going to stick. Her conception is actually a funny story, because, like, I had been, you know, tracking my cycles since Thomas was born. So, like, I knew exactly when I was ovulating, exactly when I was, you know, when my cycles were due and so forth. I actually ovulated when I was at my brother's funeral in Missouri, and Norm was here in Pennsylvania. I was like, okay, this, you know, I'm ovulating. So, imagine my surprise when I got back two weeks later, and I knew that I was pregnant before I even tested, because I'd been tracking my cycles. And, like, I tested, and it was positive. I'm like, okay. She was actually conceived when I was separated from my husband by several states.

Kiona:

Yeah. So, but, so you're saying that maybe it was your hurrah before you went that led to the

Deborah:

Yes.

Kiona:

conception.

Deborah:

That's what I'm saying.

Kiona:

Yeah. All right. Yeah. It's like, love you. I'm going to miss you. And then also, look at

Deborah:

Yeah.

Kiona:

this.

Deborah:

So, that was, that was really interesting.

Kiona:

So, when you found out, Deb, that you were pregnant, what were your thoughts?

Deborah:

It was a bit of a surprise, but not a huge surprise. I knew for sure, like, this was going to be my last baby. So, I really wanted to cherish every moment of it. Remember everything, savor everything, you know, because I knew she was going to be the last, my last pregnancy, my last birth, you know. So, that's kind of what I was thinking and feeling at the time.

Kiona:

Yeah. And so, Norman, when you guys were going through all of this, and then all of a sudden, Deb's like, oh, hey, I'm pregnant. What's going through your mind?

Norman:

The loss of the last one was really, it hit me hard because I actually wasn't there for her. Because I was in the hospital with Isaiah. And actually, my mother was at home taking care of both the kids and then, at that point, Deb. And so, I just didn't know what to feel. Honestly, I was just kind of, I was a little surprised. I mean, you know, we're 41 and going to have a baby.

Deborah:

When I found out that I was pregnant with Emily, I didn't think it was going to stick. I was convinced for a long time that, you know, it was just like a blip on the radar screen. Like, that it wasn't going to result in a real baby at the end of the day.

Norman:

It was our thing we were keeping together because we just didn't, couldn't face, I was a pastor, I was pastoring a church at the time and we'd gone through the stuff with the previous baby and just, we were not ready to bring it to, you know, to the congregation, et cetera, et cetera. It was just not something we were ready, you know, we were mentally not prepared to go through that again publicly. And so we were like, well, we won't, because it was just too hard on us the last time.

Kiona:

And so, Deb, at what point did you realize that this pregnancy was sticking and that you were going to cherish every moment of it?

Deborah:

About halfway through. It's like when we got past the point where we lost Christopher, it started to feel more real. Okay, I made it past 17 weeks, I made it past 18 weeks, you know, maybe when I got to around 20, I was like, yeah, this is really going to happen.

Kiona:

And was it also around the time that you decided to get prenatal care?

Deborah:

Yeah, I decided to get prenatal care somewhere around that, like shortly after the second trimester started. I remember distinctly that our insurance company had a deal where you could get a free car seat, but you had to start getting prenatal care before the end of the first trimester. So we didn't qualify because I didn't go to the midwife until after the first trimester was over.

Norman:

We were also doing, you know, making sure she was eating well. First pregnancy, she tried to do iron pills and it didn't work. So we ended up cooking a lot of stuff on cast iron and actually kept her iron up. So we made sure you're cooking regularly on the cast iron, making sure, you know, keeping your health up. You know, we knew a lot of the steps we had to do to have a healthy baby. We're still going through those for Emily. It's just, we were not sharing it with the world, if that makes any sense.

Kiona:

Yeah. And that makes total sense, you know, especially after having those four losses so soon after each other. And then to kind of be hesitant to share with the world that, hey, we're going through this again because it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking and yes, there's the, okay, I have my community while I'm going through this, but then sometimes it's different when you hold it with yourself to just kind of carry that by yourself. So you don't have to prove anything to everyone or answer any questions to anyone. And so it does make sense that you kind of held it close to your hearts until you guys were solid and really felt that it was sticking and everything was going well. With Emily, was there anything specific about her pregnancy that was different than the others?

Deborah:

I was training in Tung Se Doe.

Kiona:

Okay. I

Deborah:

actually had my brown belt tests, which is like about halfway up to the black belt. So I had my test while I was very pregnant with Emily, like seven months, I think. Really, the only difference was I wasn't allowed to like break fall and I wasn't allowed to jump, but I did everything else, you know, like the kicks and the board breaking and all that.

Kiona:

And so after you took your test, did you continue to do your training or was that like, okay, let's pause?

Deborah:

I was on the training floor two days before she was born.

Kiona:

Nice. What was it for again? What was it called?

Deborah:

Tung Se Doe.

Norman:

It's a Korean form, similar to Taekwondo.

Kiona:

Tung Se Doe. Nice.

Deborah:

It's called a flying art. So I wasn't doing much flying at fully pregnant, but.

Kiona:

And so after you went through your pregnancy with Emily and you were nearing the end, you said you also were at the birth center with her. What was it like to be at the birth center with Emily? Did you bring everyone this time or was it a little bit more close knit?

Deborah:

It was just me and Norm and the midwife and the labor nurse. It was much more like laid back.

Kiona:

Let's talk about what the birth of Emily was like for you.

Deborah:

It was fast. It was not as fast as, as Patrick's, but it was, it was pretty fast. She was past her due date. We had gone to the midwife center. We got there. We got checked out. I got checked out. And the midwife said, well, if you want to go get something to eat, you can. And the next contraction that came, I'm like, we're not going anywhere. No, this baby's coming. So it wasn't much long after that, that she ended up coming. I don't know why I get, I guess I just felt comfortable in that same position that I had all the other babies in. I did tear some and I could tell that I was older because like, she was trying to, you know, sew me up and I was having like cramps in my butt. Like, I'm like, oh, I'm having a cramp. So she, she put both of my feet on her shoulders

Kiona:

and

Deborah:

she's like sewing me up with my feet on her shoulders.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah.

Deborah:

That was interesting, but

Kiona:

doing what you got to do to get it done.

Deborah:

Exactly.

Kiona:

So talk to me about what postpartum looked like. Did she scream and holler until she was fed, or was she a quieter baby?

Deborah:

She was very quiet. I put her near my breast to see if she would try to nurse. She did not have any interest. She was just like, just relaxed.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Deborah:

Calm. She was like, eh, I'm not really interested right now.

Kiona:

Right.

Deborah:

So that was, that was a little bit different.

Norman:

Emily was probably the easiest of all the babies in that regard, you know, just kind of laid back. It wasn't like, you know, lethargic. It was just like, oh, it'll come. I'm cool. We'll get things done kind of thing.

Kiona:

I think that is amazing. And the fact that you guys have a little bit of everything in your family is wonderful. You have the zen, the loud, the strong, you have everything. And I think that that's beautiful. And that's exactly what a family is and what a family should be. I am super thankful that you shared your stories with me today and all of my listeners on the Birth As We Know It podcast because they're all so different. And they all came with different things going on in the environment that they came into. You know, there's this saying that says that every single time you have a child, they're always being birthed to different parents. And that is so true because every child that comes along changes you. So thank you for sharing your stories with me. But before we log off, I do want to ask both of you three final closing questions. Okay. So the first question is for both of you. What is one piece of advice that you would give to families that are preparing for pregnancy, labor and birth?

Deborah:

Well, I have two.

Kiona:

Go for it.

Deborah:

One is to like educate yourself. I mentioned it earlier. Like do your homework. Listen to your podcast. Listen to other like birth stories. Read birth stories. Don't go into it blindly. If you have any opinion at all about how you want your birth to go, don't just expect that to happen. It's not going to happen unless you make it happen. And then the other one is if you're planning to breastfeed, ask for a lactation consultant.

Kiona:

Yes.

Norman:

My general advice, I was listening to your podcast and I was listening to one couple describing how they had a birth plan and it kind of changed as it went along. And I was thinking, that's what parenting is like. You have your, you know, your beliefs, your morals, you're going to stick with the boundaries, but to be flexible enough to know this, these are the essentials. This is what I want to do. And this is how we're going to raise our children. Or in this case, this is how I'm going to have my baby. But know that the most important part in the end is having a healthy, happy baby. And so you're like, okay, yes, I'm going to have to do this little thing that I didn't think I'd have to do. But these are, these are my red lines. These are not. And knowing those things, because it'll, it actually really good training for parenting, I think it's like that idea that, you know, you have to be both firm and flexible at the same time. And I was thinking about that as a good advice is that as you're getting ready for the birth, you're becoming the parents you're supposed to be in that way.

Kiona:

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. It really does. And both of your answers are great pieces of advice. But my second question is, what is a resource that you would give to any listeners that are prepping for labor, birth and postpartum?

Deborah:

I would highly, highly recommend reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility.

Kiona:

Yes.

Deborah:

By Tony Weschler. It was like a game changer for me. I read it after, I think it was after Thomas's birth. But like, in terms of both conceiving and trying not to conceive, you know, we talked about having, you know, getting pregnant postpartum. The advice in there is spot on. It's like scientifically based. It tells you how, how to track your fertility, how to know when you're most fertile, when you're least fertile, how to get pregnant, if you want to get pregnant, how to not get pregnant. And every one of my pregnancies after I read that book, I knew I was pregnant before my miss period, because I knew.

Kiona:

The signs and symptoms. Yeah.

Deborah:

How long it was from ovulation until, because your luteal phase, like after ovulation is always the same within like a day or two. So, if you're taking a temperature and your temperature doesn't drop, then you're pregnant. Or if you're not taking your temperature, but your period doesn't come, like, then you know you're pregnant. So, that's my favorite resource.

Kiona:

It is truly such a great book. And it's full of so much information. And when I started reading that book, I was like, wow, I didn't even know all of this about my body. And reading this book and going through the steps of like learning what your cervical placement is, your cervical mucus, like all of that stuff. It's so great. It's super informative. And I absolutely will hand that book over to my daughter the day she starts her period. Learn this. Norman, what is a good resource from you?

Norman:

I was gonna say one of the things I want to say for partners is learn to read the room, I guess the best way to describe it, is the, especially, you know, second pregnancy and beyond, is that by giving up things that you think are important to you, there aren't, that you can find who you really are. You know, I hear these horror stories of guys who at right postpartum still playing video games while their wife is doing everything and I'm like, that just doesn't make sense to me because to miss out on so many wonderful things and it means that you have a new life and it's just learning to see what they need and do it.

Kiona:

I think that's good advice. That's good advice. And it goes back into the individual within the transition. What can you do as a person to make this a smoother transition for yourself as well as everybody else in your family? I think that's great. Now, my final question is, if both of you could describe each of the births with one word, what would those words be?

Deborah:

So for Caleb, my word is frustrating.

Norman:

My word was long.

Deborah:

For Patrick, furious.

Norman:

Mine was, and we were debating who got this word, whirlwind.

Deborah:

For Thomas, I have community.

Norman:

And I have the same word. We couldn't, we were both this, what we really felt both of that one.

Kiona:

Nice. Yeah.

Deborah:

For the adoptions, I have destiny.

Norman:

And I have joyful.

Deborah:

And then for Emily, I have terrorist.

Norman:

I have scary.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. I think all of those words really do label, well, not even necessarily label, but they, they are brief, very brief descriptions of each of those births because they're all so different. Right.

Deborah:

Mm-hmm.

Kiona:

And like I said before, each time a new baby comes into the space or each time a new family member joins, it's to a different set of parents. And so each time you guys are working through all of that. And I think that each of those words are very good choices for each of those births and parenting adventures, I should say. So, yes. Well, Deb and Norman, thank you so much for sharing all of your stories with me because there's so much here that people get to unpack. And I'm excited that they'll get to hear this and unpack it. And some people might have questions and some people might not. But I'm really happy that you guys came on today. So thank you.

Norman:

You're welcome.

Deborah:

Thank you. We're very happy to share our story.

Ourto:

As you listen to this episode, it is very obvious that both Deb and Norm built their family out of love. So when you listen to this and hear how their family came together with adoption, as well as what they call DIY children, it really brings together what the meaning of family truly is. If you want to learn more about this episode, go to the show notes by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com forward slash 90. And if you want to become part of the Birth As We Know It podcast community, you can do that by going to birthasweknowitpodcast.com forward slash community. If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more episodes that have to do with adoption, you can check out either episode 73 with Lindsay Bruggeman, or you can check out episode 79 with Nikki Yazback. Both of those episodes are of adoptive parents talking about how their children join their family. So go ahead and check those out. Now, Deb and Norm, I want to give you a big thank you for sharing your stories with us and for being able to make it possible for the listeners to understand that families are built in many different ways. All right, friends. I look forward to talking to you soon. Bye for now.

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Kiona Nessenbaum

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