Birth As We Know It ™️-Birth Stories and Experiences

91-Thad King- Partner-Miscarriage-3 Vaginal Births-Kearney, Aubrey & Owen + Bonus Birth

• Episode 91

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In this episode, Thad, a partner and father, shares his perspective on what it was like to watch his wife Patty go through multiple pregnancies and how they handled each transition as a couple. He also talks about a bonus birth that he experienced while operating an Army helicopter!

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Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.  

Tune in to episode 82-Art Almquist-Partner-2 Births-Cesarean-Vaginal-Mikayla & Leif

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Intro:

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.

Disclaimer:

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.

Thank you!:

Well, hello there, friends. Welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. I should say, I'm back. Because if you're a consistent listener of the Birth As We Know It podcast, you are well aware that it has been 12 weeks since I've uploaded my last episode. Now, I do want to apologize for that because it has left you all waiting way too long. And I feel like I'm really pushing my luck because if you are part of the Birth As We Know It podcast Facebook group, you are aware that I made some adjustments to the podcast. And I also promised some things that I was not able to follow through with. Some of the adjustments for those that are newer listeners are, I will now be uploading only one episode a month for the near future. And eventually I will get back to two episodes a month. I was unable to follow through with that last month in September. I know I made a promise to upload at least one episode in September and it is literally the last day of October. And, I will say it was very close that this wouldn't come out either. So I want to give a big thank you to Scott Johnson, who is the host and producer of the What Was That Like podcast. He was the one that actually edited this episode for me. So Scott, thank you so much for believing in me and for pushing my podcast forward so that all of the listeners can still get these amazing stories. In this episode today, you will be listening to Thad King talk about the experiences he had alongside his wife, Patti, for their three beautiful children. you also get a bonus birth of a baby born in a helicopter while it was under his operation. And if at any point in this episode, you want to see the pictures that he is referring to, you can go to birth as we know it podcast.com forward slash 91. All right, friends, let's dive into this episode.

Kiona:

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I'm excited to have on a partner, aka father, that is going to be telling the story of his three children, as well as a bonus story of a helicopter baby. So Thad King is with me today, and I just want to give you all a little bit of a gist of how awesome this interview will be. This is a quote directly from his guest request form, and it says, this is my perspective as a dad and husband. It might be a little gruff and rough. My wife is a badass and childbirth is the most beautiful and gross thing I have ever witnessed. So Thad, welcome.

Thad:

Hey, thanks for having me.

Kiona:

Yes, I'm really excited to have you on because we met at PodFest actually in January, and we were just sitting across the table from each other and you were like, oh, I got some birth stories to share. So I'm excited about that. Let's honestly dive right in. So you have three children that you're going to be talking about today. At what point did you and your wife, Patti, decide that you were going to have some kiddos?

Thad:

Yeah, that's kind of an interesting story because we hadn't decided that we had not decided that we were going to have kids. I mean, it was always like in the plan, but there was no like real, this is what we're going to do until she had a history of ovarian cysts. And so we, she had went to the doctor and the doctor was basically like, hey, look, it's now or never. This is not going to get better with age. And I'm probably butchering it. And she would, if she was here, she would be like, no, it's this way. But that's the way I remember it. And we were kind of, I mean, we were fairly young. I mean, I think we were, maybe I was 24, she was 22, maybe. And we were like, okay, well, we got to, we want to have kids. We don't want this, these issues to stop us. So we started trying. And that old, like wives tell, the more you try, the less likely it is to happen. Or maybe that's not a thing, but it just was not happening. So when we kind of stopped actively trying is when it happened.

Kiona:

About how long do you think you guys are trying for?

Thad:

Maybe like a year, maybe. Yeah, probably right around a year.

Kiona:

So we are actually talking about your first kiddo right now. And her name is Kearney.

Thad:

Yep.

Kiona:

And she is 22.

Thad:

Yep.

Kiona:

So this is going to be fun because I'm interested in pulling out the details of what you remember from this long ago.

Thad:

Fun fact, she just got married last weekend was the wedding.

Kiona:

Oh,

Thad:

yeah. So.

Kiona:

Well, congratulations, Kearney.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

When you hear this, you're awesome.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

So it took you guys about a year to try. Tell me about the moment you found out that she was pregnant. What was going through your mind and how did you feel?

Thad:

I was actually working in South Padre Island, Texas at the time I was in the military. I was in the Army and I was a diver, which is weird that the Army has divers, but they do. I was way down in South Padre Island on a Coast Guard ship, like diving. And I got a call. And this was like before. This might have been before cell phones. This would have been in... 2002. I had one of those Nokia, you know, those little, you know, like burner phones and she called me and I remember that it costs money per minute when you talked on the cell phone back then. So she was just kind of like really quick, like, Hey, I'm pregnant. I'm pretty sure I'm pregnant. You know, no, she left them. I think she left the message. So I was really happy and excited. And, you know, all the guys I was working with were excited for me. I think we went out and drank a bunch of beer that night or something. But, uh, yeah, that's how, and the way she found out, she took a pregnancy test and our next door neighbors, she walked over to our neighbors. She's like, Hey, is this what I think it is? And like, Oh my God, girl, you're pregnant. And so, yeah, that's how she called me and told me.

Kiona:

That's actually really exciting because first off, you guys were separated because you were in the military, you would do anything. But the fact that she was able to go to the neighbor get reassurance, like, is this what I think it is? And she got to celebrate with her people. And then she told you, and then you got to celebrate with your people. I think that is the best alternative to

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

having to find out when you guys are apart from each other.

Thad:

Yeah. And the military community is really close like that. So your neighbors become your family because your family's thousands of miles away. So in that case, our neighbors, Phyllis and Kim were our family and they were great to us.

Kiona:

Oh, love that. Okay. You find out that she's pregnant. What happens after that? Like, how is her pregnancy for her? And how do you guys prepare for baby's arrival?

Thad:

She got that book, what to expect when you're expecting and like a bajillion baby books. Th first trimester wasn't terrible for her. I mean, she was a little morning sickness. And then probably midway through the first trimester, the morning sickness came on. It was all day sickness, like hardcore puking. She had to quit work because she couldn't. She was puke. She was puke in the bathroom like every, you know, 20 minutes. So she ended up quitting her job and she just was kind of home. That sickness lasted, it seemed like, it seemed like a long time. But she did have like a lot of weird food cravings, like peanut butter and shrimp and like just weird.

Kiona:

Oh,

Thad:

like totally disgusting. You know, the tip, you know, ice cream was heavily involved the whole time. There was a pickle phase in there, a shrimp phase and just kind of weird cravings that, you know, I was like, that's disgusting. But she was all about it.

Kiona:

Yeah. So what did you guys do to prepare for a baby? Like, did you guys take any childbirth education classes? Did you know where you were wanting to birth?

Thad:

Yeah. So we kind of had a very natural approach. Let me rephrase that. She had a very natural approach to childbirth. And I was just kind of along for the ride. And I supported whatever she wanted to do. So we made a birth plan. She wanted to have an in-home birth. But our insurance and everything back, you know, that was 22, three years ago. It wasn't as prevalent as it is nowadays. And they were like, preposterous. And I'm like, babies have been born like this for thousands of years, Like, so we, we had a birth plan. We kind of wrote it all out. We had like our music playlist for the delivery. And she wanted to do it all natural, no drugs. And she read probably every book ever written in that timeframe about, and she wanted me to read them. And my kind of opinion on that is like, there's something instinctual and human that kick in when you have a baby and you just kind of intrinsically know certain things. Like, obviously there's things you don't know about, but I'm saying you don't need to read like a billion books on it. Baby's been being born for since humans were around. So that was kind of my thing is like, hey, stop stressing about this. That child is going to come when it wants to come out and everything will work out fine. But she was very concerned and wanted to do everything just right. She was and is a great mom. So she didn't have, she was on it. You know, I was over there like, it'll be fine. Don't worry about it. She was not leaving anything to chance.

Kiona:

Yeah. I mean, good for her to do all the research, but I totally also understand your perspective on that as well. Like just knowing that birth is the most common thing that happens in humanity, you know, like it has to happen

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

for our species to survive. So I get that. But. I do also think she did, like, I was the same way, just doing all kinds of research and like, what do I need to do in order to blah, blah, blah? And it's overwhelming how much research is

Thad:

Y.

Kiona:

out there

Thad:

Oh, yeah.

Kiona:

because a lot of it is also contradictive. So when she found something and kind of went with it, that sounds like it was a really good idea.

Thad:

I was probably more of the same, I was probably more overwhelmed and I just masked it with, I gotta be fine, but it was, it was a lot. So she did do some, we had some classes, I think, we were in the Army, I think there was like a, not Lamaze, but maybe there was like a breathing, I don't even remember, but I feel like there was a breathing thing that we went to, maybe.

Kiona:

What took place when the big day arrived? Like, how did you know labor began? And what was happening in your mind when it all went down?

Thad:

She did most of her first two trimesters in Virginia and then we moved to Alabama. So we were, we had switched doctors kind of in the third trimester to a different, a new doctor. It was April in Alabama. We were late March. She was big and I don't mean that like in a bad way, like she was just ready to pop, you know, like the little, little turkey thing, like when your belly button kind of pops out. That's a, she was like, I'm ready for this baby to come out. And so we would walk around our neighborhood, like take laps around the neighborhood and like nothing, it was just like nothing was coming. And we were probably 39 weeks maybe, like right at the end. And she had read something about castor oil and she was like, I'm going to take some castor oil. And she, we went to Chili's and she got the hottest stuff she could get. Like the, I don't even know if Chili's has hot stuff anymore, but maybe I felt like we ate a bunch of chips and salsa and she got like everything extra hot and like a bunch of buffalo wings or something. And then she took the castor oil and then that really, maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but kind of started the contractions. And so they, they kind of came on at first they were, you know, probably like minutes, five minutes apart. I don't remember, but they, when they got close to like the doctors, okay, when they get to close to one minute, you call me and start to come And so we did that. The hospital was about 30 minutes away. So she's like, yeah, come on in the ER folks admitted us and then called our doctor who was just coming off like a baby bender. She had to like deliver like all these kids like all night long. And she was completely tired and strung out. And this part of the story was not a fun experience, but I can get into that if you want to hear that.

Kiona:

Yeah. Whatever you want to share.

Thad:

Yeah. So we got there and the doctor was, was like, we had the birth plan. We, everything was going great. The nursing staff was amazing. And they finally called the doctor and she was like really put off by us being there. And I'm like, what, dude, this is what you're like, what? And so she was like, Hey, we need to push, um, is it Pitocin?

Kiona:

Uh-huh.

Thad:

Uh-huh. And, uh, let's get an epidural. And I was, we were like, Hey, Whoa, Hey, that's not in the, that's not in the script. That's not in the plan. We're not, we're doing it natural. And she was like really put off by that. And it is, she was acting like that was the first time she ever heard of it.

Kiona:

Uh-huh.

Thad:

And then she kind of like, okay, whatever. And then she's like, well, I'll be back in like an hour or two to check on you. So she comes back and she was more dilated. It was our first kid. So we really didn't know. And in hindsight, after having two other kids now, we know how to have babies. And so she had her starting to push and she was pushing way too early. She was giving us like a lecture about, she was, she was originally from Iran. She was, um, Iranian born, but moved to the United States when she was like in college or something and had stayed here. And she was like, in my country, people that, you know, they don't have access to the modern technology. And you guys are over here just hippy dippy, you know.

Kiona:

Um,

Thad:

Really kind of poo-pooing on our whole thing. And we were, we were very, I mean, we were, I was 26 and she was 24. So we were not in that stage of adulting where I wouldn't have a problem telling her exactly how I felt about things that we're in charge, not you.

Kiona:

right.

Thad:

And it was just kind of an unfortunate damper on the situation. And she, she had her pushing way too early, which ended up causing her to tear. And I think there was 43 stitches internal and it was not good.

Kiona:

That's crazy.

Thad:

Which has led to long-term health issues, but when Kierney kind of all was forgiven when she came out. But during, during the birth, the cord was wrapped around her neck, and the cord was wrapped around my neck when I was born as well. I'm just kind of in the background watching, I'm like, I'm there, like, I'm staring, right? I'm watching the whole thing. The doctor kind of did this twist maneuver and like, stuck her finger and like, unwrapped the cord and, you know, then clamps and clamped it and cut it. And then, you know, she started crying and we're crying. And it was a super emotional, the coolest thing I've ever seen. Like, there is no doubt when you see a baby being born, especially your child, that it's a miracle. In real time, you're like, holy moly, we did that. The birth of my three kids is in my top three best days of my life, for sure.

Kiona:

Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, it's awesome that you view birth that way, because some births can be really traumatic and scary. But

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

when you said hindsight was 20-20, and one, I think it's totally wrong of the provider to say, in my country, they would have utilized all of this medicine and you're not doing it and it's here for you. That's,

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

that's totally her projecting her own feelings and emotions on it. That does kind of put me in a place of like, okay, all people are human. All providers are human. They're going through their own

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

thing as well.

Thad:

And she had not slept for like 24 hours, too. And everybody, I know how people get when they're angry and tired.

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Right. But still, it's still impacted.

Thad:

The crazy thing was a guy that I was, I was in flight school at the time to be a pilot in the Army. And the guy who was in my classmate in flight school, his wife was three weeks behind us, maybe even two weeks behind us. Same doctor, same exact experience. Same knee pushing early and had to get all the – so we were like, ooh, something's going on here. So.

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

But later on, after she was born, it was great. I think she weighed seven pounds and 11 ounces, maybe. I can't remember how, like the length. Like my mom can remember all the details of me and my sister. She's like, this long, this how much she weighed. I don't remember. She was a baby. And. But she had – she came out with like very black hair. And my wife is blonde. And so, you know, I was like, hey, whoa. I'm just kidding. But. But we did have a scare during the hospital because 12 hours after she was born, my wife was feeding her. And all of a sudden, she just turned blue. Something got lodged in her airway. And I remember just my wife because she just started kind of panicking a little bit. And I just hit the like emergency button thing on the wall. And like 20 people were in there within like seconds. And they took the baby and they were like suction. And like they were awesome. It was like a pit crew at NASCAR. They like ran in there, fixed our kid, and then gave her back to us. And all was fine. But then she had to do – they wanted to do a bunch of tests because of the – they were worried about the oxygen going to her brain because she wasn't breathing for some, you know, undisclosed period of time. Thankfully, she's okay. And she went to college and graduated. She did college in three years instead of four. And she got married last weekend. So it all turned out okay for that one.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For that one. Yeah, that's good. That's good. And after Kearney was born, how – well, I guess this is more a question for Patti, but I'm thinking of like from your perspective, what was it like to watch her recover from that?

Thad:

Yeah. It was interesting because when I look at the pictures, she looks so different. At the time, she just looked like my wife. Like she, you know. So we nursed. Or breastfed all three of our kids. One, we had to supplement with some formula, but breastfed all our kids. And it took her probably – it took a toll. I could tell it took a toll on her body. I mean, she was taking multivitamins in the whole Yeah. But when you really think about it, like you're growing another human and it's eating I don't know if that's the right word, but, you know, eating for two or whatever. So

Kiona:

–

Thad:

it was amazing to watch her body kind of – like I was really blown away that she had this huge baby bump. And then that she had the baby and it was gone. I was like, whoa, how did it go away, you know? And – It was cool to watch her transform back to her self and what was crazy was she transformed by by Kearney's one-year birthday, my wife was like in more shape than she was before the baby.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Thad:

And it was a very natural thing, but she had to work towards that, uh, it was just really cool watching And we also co-slept with our kids, all three of our kids and, um,

Kiona:

uh,

Thad:

so it was, it was interesting, you know, in the middle of the night when the baby would wake up and then my wife kind of roll over and breastfeed, which was awesome because we could all kind of go back to sleep and get some sleep. But yeah, it was, it was really cool watching her. It was really cool watching her become a different person like you, like as in terms of being a mom, cause before it was her and I, and then she was making that transition. But when the baby comes, there is a definite bond there. So it was really cool.

Kiona:

Yeah. I think that is truly amazing, especially from the perspective of a partner to talk about the transition that does happen after someone gives birth. First off birth completely just changes. A person's anatomy, but also the psychology of what it means to be a person. For both the person who gives birth

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

and the parent that's supporting, because you guys are transitioning into parents. It was just the two of you before. being able to hear you talk about how awesome it was to watch your wife, like find out how she was again, like when it comes to like being in better shape, like at the one year than she was prior, like, you know, her psychology shifted at some point to say, I got to focus on me and pay attention to myself. But also I'm a mom now.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

And so what does that mean?

Thad:

Th was clearly like a mental and physical transformation in a lot of growing up, too. We were 24, 24 and 26. So we were still, you know, I shudder to think now, like, oh, my gosh, 24. That's like crazy young. And looking back on us, really cool to watch her in real time mature and be a mom and do it with grace and, for lack of a better term, badassery. You know, she's just awesome.

Kiona:

I love that. I think that is so great. So after Kearney is born and you guys are adjusting to life with Kearney, how and when did you decide it was time for another?

Thad:

We didn't. Yeah, we actually, we moved to Korea. I got stationed in South Korea. Oh, this is a crazy story. This is a, you're going to love this. So this was right after the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Iraq had been going on for maybe six, six months, seven months. And my wife was in the army previously and they were calling all the people that were, because when you join the army, typically you join, you can do a four year enlistment, but you owe the government eight years. So you're, you're basically what they call inactive ready reserve for four years. So she had done her time, but was still in the IRR inactive ready reserve, which means if there's a war, you can be called up. We were stationed in Korea, which is typically an unaccompanied tour, which means you don't bring your family with you. But I was in an area that was not close to the DMZ and they would, some folks, the army would pay to have their families there. Or like my command said, Hey, we don't care if you want to bring your family over here. Great. You're just not going to get an allowance to have them here. So I, I clearly was like, yeah, I want my family here. So her and my daughter Kearney came over and probably within maybe a couple, four months of us being in Korea, her mom called and she's like, Hey, I got a letter here from the army for you, for, for Patti. And we were in Korea. We're like, Hey, can you open it up and read it? And so her mom read it and she didn't really understand what she was reading. And I explained to her like, Hey, they're calling her back to active duty. Like she's being recalled to go to Iraq. And my wife was a, like a secretary or like a personnel clerk, like work, like HR kind of stuff. So we had a baby and I was on an unaccompanied tour. So, you know, I was in Korea. I can't be in the army. You can't be a single parent unless you have a plan. And, and you have people to watch your children in case there's a war. So in the, in that letter, because it went to her mom's house by the time she called us and got it, it'd been like two weeks. And it said that her report date was like in two more weeks.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Thad:

We were, like, freaking out because we have a 15-month-old kid and we're in South Korea, and my wife's got a report to Fort Jackson, South Carolina to go to Iraq. Life got very real for us at that point. We got my command involved, and they were like, hey, look, he's on another company tour. His wife, you know, I was an officer and a pilot, and they're like, hey, we're not gonna- We don't want to kick an officer and a pilot that we spent all this money training on to retain somebody that only has two years left on their contract. And the Army didn't care. They were like, yeah, there's a war. We need her. She's got a report. And so my command, my commander, I remember him telling me, he's like, hey, look, just tell her to show up with a baby on her hip and they'll figure it out. And I'm like, I'm not going to send my wife and young child around the world to show up in the Army to go to Iraq and then go, hey, we'll just figure it out in real time. And so we were really, really worried and stressed out. And then I remember we were driving back to our apartment, and I was like, hey, shouldn't you have had your period by now? And she was like, yeah, I should have. And I was like, stopped over in a little Korean version of Walgreens, like a drugstore. Just kidding. There is no Korean version of Walgreens. But you can get like a pregnancy test at like a gas station. And so ran in there and got a pregnancy test and she took it, but it was in Korean. So we were like, I'm pretty sure we're pregnant. But the, you know, I think it was like a plus and a minus. And the writing was in Korean, but you could figure it out. And we were like, hey, we're, I think we're pregnant. And so the next day we went on to the Army hospital and they did a urine out, not a urine, a blood test or whatever test. It

Kiona:

we

Thad:

was a different one than the kind you pee on a stick. And the surgeon, my command surgeon was like, yeah, she's definitely pregnant. Congrats. And we were like, oh, my gosh, this. So we sent that back to the Army. And they said, OK, since she's pregnant, clearly she cannot go to war. So they said the funny thing was they told they sent they sent her another letter and they said they want to know the estimated date of birth. And we were like, hey, it should be. Late April, early May, 2005. So they're like, OK. 60 days after the birth of the baby, she has to report to go to Iraq.

Kiona:

Oh,

Thad:

And

Kiona:

my

Thad:

we were like,

Kiona:

gosh.

Thad:

what? 60 days? We were like, OK, whatever. We'll take the W here and like we'll stave this thing off. So that's how we found out she was pregnant. And the funny thing was, is after my daughter, my second daughter was born, we did get the letter that said, hey, we're expecting you 60 days from now. And then I wrote him back and explained like, hey, she can come there in 60 days, but 45 days after she gets there, that's her eight year mark and you're going to have to let her go anyway. So you're going to incur all this. And they kind of were like, yeah, you're right. And so they just let it go. And it didn't happen. So, yeah.

Kiona:

Wow. That is a journey.

Thad:

Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy.

Kiona:

Yeah, that is so crazy. That is, I mean, good job on having a lot of sex and getting your wife pregnant at the right time.

Thad:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It

Kiona:

I

Thad:

was.

Kiona:

mean.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Good timing. Yeah. I think that is so interesting. And so everything just lined up, which is great. So throughout that pregnancy with Aubrey, what, was there anything that you noticed that was different or?

Thad:

Totally different. This, at this point, we're like kind of veterans of babies. This pregnancy was super easy. She had a little bit of morning sickness in the first trimester and it was really minimal. So the one thing that was weird, we lived in Korea and we lived in a little village on Junry. Our neighbors owned a traditional Chinese medicine place where they like grind deer antlers and like all kinds of crazy, although totally works, concoctions and like just stuff that is not seen in Western medicine. They, in Korea, when you're, when you're pregnant, 임신 is the Korean word for pregnant. They would bring us massive amounts of kimchi, and if you've ever smelled kimchi, there's winter kimchi and summer kimchi, and like, when I say everybody in our village brought us kimchi, I mean, like, like, literal garbage bags filled with kimchi, and, you know, it was kind of wintertime, so we had a little balcony, and they would sit in these kimchi pots on the balcony for us. You know, all the ajimas is like a, it's, it means a woman, it's, they would come over, none of them spoke English either, they would all come to my wife's, come to our house, and like, dote on my wife, and take care of her, and like, rub her belly, and like, kind of chastise her about, you know, you need a coat, you know, you got the baby, just like grandmas would do, and then kind of force her to eat kimchi, which my wife loves kimchi. But at this point in the pregnancy, the smell was so revolting that she, we would have to, like, they would, people would bring us kimchi, like, every other day, like our neighbors, and they're so, you know, like, so happy that we were pregnant, and it, because it's a very community culture there, and being part of your village is, is, you know, you don't see this in big cities, but in small towns, everybody, like, on our street, everybody in our street knew us, and it would snow, and they would, like, de-ice my wife's car, like, start up the engine for her, get the ice off the thing, and like, we lived on the third floor, and they would come and sweep all the snow and ice off the stairs

Kiona:

in

Thad:

the morning, so she fall down the stairs. Like, greatest people ever. We love Korea, but it was, the smells were really, like, the kimchi smell just got to her. Yeah, she didn't really have morning sickness at all. She was also drinking this, they have these Asian pear juice there. Have you ever had, like, aloe water?

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

With the chunks of aloe? But, like,

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

that kind of came to America, like, maybe, like, 15 years ago. I mean, maybe it's always been here, but in Korea, that's, like, a normal, you can get it at any gas station. She was just pounding these, our neighbors owned the medicinal herb place. They would just make this, like, fermented pear juice stuff. I mean, it wasn't fermented, like, alcohol. And she would drink that and a lot of aloe water. And, yeah, it was, that pregnancy was fairly easy. I mean, we went to China when she was probably seven months pregnant, eight months pregnant. We flew to Beijing and spent, like, the weekend in Beijing and walked the Great Wall of China, and she just did it like a boss, like, no problem.

Kiona:

Wow.

Thad:

And that pregnancy was totally different than the first one. And I think a lot of it had to do with, like, we'd done it before, so we knew kind of what to expect. Yeah, it was different for sure. And the birth was completely different, too.

Kiona:

Yeah. Talk to me about what was different.

Thad:

Yeah. So, the first birth, we had the baby at a civilian hospital, and we were not reluctant, but people kind of tend, like, the military healthcare system. They're kind of like, meh, like, not so great. But I'm here to tell you, like, that birth experience and my son's birth were both born on military hospitals, 200% better than our experience with the first. Mostly because, I don't know if it's totally in the Army, but both of our second and third births had doulas and midwives versus a doctor. Now, there was a doctor present, but he's, I think they were in the other room. Or maybe they came in, like, literally, like, when the baby's halfway out. So, that one, we were, I remember we were sleeping, and my mother-in-law had flown in from America. It was probably, like, five in the morning, and my wife's water broke. And she woke me up, and she's like, hey, my water broke. That didn't happen with the first kid. I think she lost her mucus plug, maybe. And that's, that's how we might have known. But that's when the water broke. And it was like, you see on TV, kind of like, oh, that is a lot of stuff. We packed Kearney and my mother-in-law and my wife and I in the car, and we drove to Seoul, which is about an hour drive from where we were. We got to the hospital. It was generally early in the morning, probably like 7.30 we got there.Aubrey was born five hours later. The other one, my wife was in labor and there was a lot of back pain. And I remember like she was wanting me to like push on the small of her back. And the first birth, you know, she had all those stitches and all the blood vessels in her eyes were popped and all her eyes were black from straining so hard. This one was not like that at all. It was a very smooth, like Aubrey just came right out and, you know, she had to push and everything. But this one, I kind of knew what was coming. And so the doula and the midwife was there and I was like, Hey, can I, can I catch the baby? Can I like, I've already had one kid. Can I get in there? And they were like, uh, yeah. I was like, Hey,

Kiona:

Nice.

Thad:

stay close in case something happens. But once Aubrey's head was out and her neck was out, I took over and then, uh, I delivered her and then did the clamps thing. And I got like the clamp position wrong. And I think the doctor was in there at that She's like, no, no, no, right here. And I was like, okay, clamp. And then a nurse came in with the scissors and, and cut the, no, I did cut the, I did cut the cord. And then I handed her over to one of the nurses and they, they had to put her, put them in that little warming, you know, billy room

Kiona:

thing.

Thad:

It was a very easy delivery. And both of them. I've kind of watched the first one. I watched the placenta come out and I was like, mental note, not watching that again. And I was just going to say, it's the most beautiful and disgusting thing you'll ever see. And I think a lot of folks like men, especially, you kind of don't want to see that, but you, I highly recommend if there's people listening to their, their husbands or I don't need to be in there. Yeah, you do. And you need to be, you need to watch the whole thing. And, you know, cause there's, there's blood and poop and like, it's real life happening, but it's the coolest thing you'll ever see. And the grossest, but it was really cool. Patti was walking around like two hours later, like no big deal. Like, yeah, yeah. We just had that baby. That was easy. We're like high-fiving and chest bumping. And it was really easy. It was first class for her.

Kiona:

Yeah, I think that is so awesome. And the fact that you had the first birth to compare it to, you realized how much of a difference it truly was. One question I do have though, is in postpartum for the first birth of Kearney, you said that Patti, and you've mentioned it a couple of times, she had all of these stitches. So my question is, you said 43 stitches, which is a lot. That's a lot of stitches. I'm trying to think of the amount of damage that happened to her at that time. So did she, do you know, like how much she tore? Like, did she tear all the way through?

Thad:

She tore and then they did an episiotomy to like, help it out. Like, on the video, like you can hear it. And it's, it's, yeah. Because of that, and when they did the episiotomy and after she kind of tore, I kind of got concerned. I was like, uh, that's like a a lot of blood right there. Like, is, is this normal? And, you know, it's one of the nurses like, oh, it's okay. You know, kind of like played it off. And she did it all natural, no drugs at all. But both those, both the first two kids were completely zero drugs, no Pitocin, no epidurals, no nothing like old school.

Kiona:

You know, with her getting an episiotomy, that does make a difference on how many stitches are obtained because episiotomy is, and from the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like the doctor that you had was, um, considering necessarily how that would impact her postpartum. It was more of like, let's get this baby out and move on because I'm tired.

Thad:

Yeah. That was the vibe for sure.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

If we were just kind of like just hung out and babies will be born, I think it would have been better. And that's how it was with the second child that everybody was like, look, everything's going great. There's a marked distinction between having doulas and midwives

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Thad:

than doctors. And I'm not saying that to like crush doctors. They come at it, they come at patient care from a different

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

perspective. And oftentimes the nurses or the doulas, midwife and nurses are typically women. They, and sometimes your doctor's a man. And in all three of our cases, we had a female doctor, which I think is probably better to have a female doctor because especially if they've had kids before, because they know what's going on. I don't care what kind of dude you are. Like I could never wrap my head around that level of like a human growing inside me and then I'm going to push it out. Like that's so foreign to a man and I'm, I'm sure there's dudes out there that can empathize, but it's not the same as a lady. So we felt a very, way more taken care of with the doulas and the midwives. Our second and third, the MDs were great. The OBS were great. Just, we did have doula and a midwife on our second and third kid. So better experience for us.

Kiona:

Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning the differences between what you have perceived from OB care and midwifery care. Cause I'm a birth worker. So some people take my opinion as like, yeah, but you're in it. So you're biased, which is true. You know, I do have my biases. Everybody does, but there is a difference. There really is a difference because the way that providers are trained and the way that they intend to practice makes a big difference too.

Thad:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kiona:

And a lot of people aren't aware of this, but most OBs that are there to help you give birth, they're not required to attend an unmedicated birth at all. And that makes a big difference in how they view unmedicated birth.

Thad:

Yeah. All the OBs were like, what? You don't want an epidural? And we were like, no, we don't. And they were like, why would you want that? And we were like, why would you want that? And again, not saying that you shouldn't get an epidural. I'm just saying like, whatever your preference is, the doctors should respect

Kiona:

Uh-huh.

Thad:

that. And my wife is finishing up her last semester of nursing school at 45, and she's actually on a 12-hour shift right now. That's why she's not here. So now seeing her as a nurse and understanding they approach patient care different from doctors, which is usually on the patient's side as an advocate for the And we felt that for sure with the midwives and the doulas.

Kiona:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Now, after Aubrey was born, you guys had another pregnancy.

Thad:

Yep.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

Yep.

Kiona:

And how far apart was that?

Thad:

Kearney and Aubrey are two years apart, and then we moved from Korea to Hawaii. I think we found out within a couple weeks after arriving in Hawaii. So we found out she was pregnant and started our prenatal care with Tripler Army Hospital in Honolulu. Everything was going great. She didn't have, like, any morning sickness at all on this one. And we were kind of thinking, like, this is the third kid. We're used to this now. We had scheduled our first ultrasound, which was at 20 weeks. We went to the ultrasound at Tripler. I remember making a comment maybe to the nurse, like, hey, this is a cool job, but it's probably really rough because if something's wrong with the pregnancy, like, you know that it's wrong, but you can't say anything. And she was like, oh, yeah. And so she's, like, got the ultrasound. And she had started to have a little baby bump at that point. And she's doing the, you know, taking all the pictures. And it was taking a little bit longer than it, like, the other two did. So I could tell my wife was like, what's going on? And so she's like, okay, hold on one second. So she had to get up and leave. And we were both like, okay, that was weird. And then eventually the doctor came in and told us that the baby, the word she used that I remember was didn't form. And I was kind of like, what? Like, what do you mean? Like, I don't understand. And my wife is just trying to hold it together. She was, like, biting her lip not to, like, just bust out crying. And the crazy thing was, I was scheduled to deploy to Iraq, like, like a week later. And the doctor's like, hey, we're going to schedule a DNC. And we didn't really talk about it. We were just kind of both, like, this kind of compartmentalized it. And our kids had got, we had gotten our kids, like, a couple days before we got them these shirts that said, like, I'm the big little sister for Aubrey. And then, like, because she was like, I'm the baby. I want to be the baby. And we're like, well, no, now you can be a big little sister. And she was like, oh, okay. So we had these shirts for them all made up. And what made that, obviously, being extremely difficult was they scheduled the DNC. And then, like, a day or two later, I deployed to Iraq. And we never really, even to this day, we still, like, when it comes up, it's a very, very difficult. I think it's a traumatic and not sore subject, but we just kinda, like my kids don't even know, like we tread very lightly on that. I say on one hand we're lucky because it was at the 20th week and they said that nothing happened, it's just that the baby didn't form. But I think, was actually thinking about this last night, I have all of our medical records, I feel like I'm gonna go back in there and reread that.

Kiona:

I

Thad:

Because I think that was just a nice way to let, let us down. It was unbelievably difficult for my wife, which at the time, I just kinda chose to either ignore it or like, we both kinda just didn't deal with it. Nineteen years later, I can see the, the fault in that and how we probably should have, we've talked about it since, but we should have done it a lot earlier. And it didn't help that I was going to combat like two days, like literally like two days later. It was just very difficult for her and then she ended up, we knew when I was going, I was gonna deploy to Iraq that she was gonna go home to her parents' house and, and stay with them while, while I was gone. So it was, it was good that she was able to go home and be with her family while I was gone. And we never forgot about the baby, but we just didn't want to deal with it, you know, and I, my heart goes out to those people that have to deal with it. That's just heartbreaking. It's difficult for sure.

Kiona:

It's absolutely difficult. And I appreciate you talking through that process because it is so true that there's no guidebook on how to handle a situation like that. There's no right way, wrong way. And you kind of just learn retrospectively like, oh, we could have handled that differently.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

But also your honesty and saying it was really foggy for you because it was such a hard time emotionally for you that your brain is just like, can't deal with this. We're not going to do this right

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

now. And I can only imagine what Patti felt going through that in addition to you going to combat, like, because there's always that fear of, are you going to make it home? You know?

Thad:

Mm-hmm.

Kiona:

Yeah. Dealing with that on top of just the loss of a pregnancy is so immense, so immense.

Thad:

Men typically don't, they're not very good with emotions or dealing with emotions or regulating emotions. So it's easier just to kind of compartmentalize and stuff something in a box and put it away and, you know, never open it again. But I think women are wired a little bit differently. What made that situation extremely difficult was we just had lost the baby. I was deploying in like a week. And then she had the DNC and like two days before I deployed, my mom decides to fly into Hawaii because she was like, I can't not see you before you go to war. So if she flew to Hawaii, it was good intentions of her. Like she had the best intentions. But like, this is my last two days with my family after this.

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

And I had to walk my mom and my wife and kids had a flight that left on the same, that left Hawaii on the same day. And I had borrowed a friend's car because we put our cars in storage while we were gone. And so I drove my mom and my two daughters and my wife to the airport. My mom was flying back to North Carolina and my wife was flying to New York. I had to like, okay, mom, have a good trip. And, and I think I got a pass from TSA to go to the gate. And then I had to walk them to the, but I couldn't spend my last two days with my family because my mom was like, my mom's great and everything, but it just kind of put a damper. It was, but my mom didn't know that whole, she's, I don't think still knows.

Kiona:

You've said a couple of times that people don't know about this. How do you feel about talking about it on a podcast? Like if they ever hear it?

Thad:

Um, they'll be fine. I mean, I think my mom might know my wife's family does. I don't know if our kids do, but the reason I'm kind of open about things is there might be somebody listening to this that just went through that or will go through that. If I could give them a little bit of, you know, wisdom or lessons learned from us is it's not the end of the world. Things still happen. And we firmly believe in our belief system that we'll see our baby again. So, some, somebody needs to hear it, so we hope that, or I, I hope that this might bring comfort to somebody that might have to, to go through that kind of difficult time. So, yeah, so I'm okay with people hearing about it.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

I think it's, to talk through things is healing, and at the time, we didn't do life like that. And so, it's better to just talk through it, and you'll be, you'll be better served.

Kiona:

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that deep, deep emotional time with us, because birth is amazing in itself, but a lot of people do focus on the positive aspects of birth and, like, the, the amazing part of, like, creating a family. But there are also hardships and hard moments where there are losses, and the emotional side of that is really important. Was there anything that you did, or that Patti did, that you're aware of, at that time, to help your mental health as you process through all of that?

Thad:

At that time, I didn't do nothing. I was, I just stuffed it away and put my war face on, and I flew into Kuwait. I was about three weeks behind the rest of my battalion, because we had just moved from Korea. So, my battalion was already forward in Iraq, and I finally got to Iraq. And within two days of being there, I was flying combat missions and doing. So, there wasn't any time to, like, focus on that thing, that kind of

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Thad:

stuff. An we did a 12-month deployment, and then it turned into a 15-month deployment.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Thad:

So, I was gone for 15 months. Like, when I left, Aubrey didn't have any hair. She was a year, 15 months old, probably. And she didn't, I remember she was, she didn't have any hair and walk, but, you know, j kind of toddle around. So, when I came home, they met me in the airport, and Aubrey, Kearney recognized, she immediately was like, but Aubrey was like, who is this guy? Like, she was just kind of, like, standoffish. And then, after about 30 minutes, she kind of warmed up. And she's always been, like, daddy's girl, kind of. And Kearney's definitely, Kearney and I are very much alike. So, she relates to her mom really well. And Aubrey is exactly like her mother. So, we kind of relate really well. We didn't really do anything. We just stuffed it away. So, don't do that.

Kiona:

Yeah. Don't do that. I do just want to touch on this really quick. What were the emotions that were going through your head when you came back and realized that Aubrey didn't recognize you right away or was a little hesitant?

Thad:

I was kind of guilty. Like, what the hell am I doing? Like, I should be with my family, not over here doing that. So, there was a little bit of, that was the impetus in that moment that I knew that I couldn't do that to them again, which led me into special operations, which are shorter deployment times. I mean, I still stayed in the Army for another 13 years after that. But that led me to go to special operations where I had small, multiple deployments, but in a shorter span. So, yeah, there was a lot of, and I was resentful to the Army at that time that, like, you sent me away from my family. And especially now, there was a little resentment there for me.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can only imagine. I can only imagine the amount of, like, mental fights that you had to have with yourself in order to, like, get through it.

Thad:

Men don't do any fighting. You just stuff it away in a box somewhere and you'd go do the thing. There's no, there's no thought, like, oh, that, that's an emotion. Walk it away. Move on. A lot of men are wired that way. And so, so, yeah.

Kiona:

Especially in the military, based off people that I've, like, met and some family members of mine. So, yeah. Okay. So, you went through this really, really deep hardship of losing your third pregnancy, but you do have a son.

Thad:

Yep.

Kiona:

So, at what point after that loss did you guys start trying again?

Thad:

We didn't. Again, so I came home from Iraq in October of 07. Patti and I talked, and I said, "Look, I'm never, we're never going to do that again." Because I had friends that were on their second one-year deployment, and guys would go on like five consecutive one-year deployments. So they'd deploy for a year, home for 18 months, and then go out again for a year.

Kiona:

Oh, yeah.

Thad:

And I was like, "Look, I will never do that to you again." And she's like, "Yeah, we're never doing that again." So I went and tried out for a Special Operations unit, and I made it. And I had about six or seven months of training, and I had to be away from them again for that training. And so she came, my parents flew out and watched the two kids, and she flew to Nashville. And we had like a three-day weekend in Nashville, like on Memorial Day. She flew out to meet me. We knew we were pregnant immediately, like after,

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

like

Kiona:

You're

Thad:

we.

Kiona:

like, "We're done. Wipe in, clean it up." And you're like, "Yep, that's the one."

Thad:

Yeah, yeah. We were like,"She was like 100% chance I'm pregnant." And I'm like, "Yeah, for sure." We were kind of joking, but we were not joking.

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

And she went home and then like three weeks later, she's like, "I'm pregnant." And I was like, "Yeah, we knew it. We knew she was, she was going to be pregnant." That pregnancy was really smooth. A little bit of morning sickness in the first trimester, super minimal. Now, I always like my wife pregnant. That sounds weird, but like she's the hottest when she's pregnant for a couple reasons. Like their hair gets really nice and like the skin kind of looks really good. And they talk about that glow. That's like a real thing, but also it's sexy to see somebody carrying your baby too. And I know that's weird, and maybe this isn't...

Kiona:

I don't think it's weird at all.

Thad:

...the venue for this, but yeah, it's great. So we had great neighbors. We were in the Army, but our neighbors were in the Air Force and the husband was like a medic and the wife was a dental hygienist in the Air Force. So they had a medical background and they were our next door neighbors, su close, really good friends. And they really stepped in and helped us because we have too small, we have too little, at the time our kids were seven and five, so they were still fairly young. So a lot of help from our neighbors. For this one, neither one of our parents flew in for the third, for Owen. And we had friends, actually the guy that delivered the baby in the helicopter. He was a medic. Him and his wife were stationed in the same battalion I was. So they came and helped us as well. But Owen's birth was, he was born at Madigan Army Hospital at Fort Lewis. Again, totally awesome experience. Doula's and midwives on point. It's 2010 at this point. So like having your baby in a birthing tub is kind of starting to be mainstream at this point. Like it's okay. Like you see it in hospitals where in 2003, they would have been like hippie, like, "What?" But by this time, even in an army hospital, they had a birthing tub. And so this time, Patti was in labor Cairney for maybe like eight hours. Aubrey was six. And then Owen was 24 hours. And he just did not want to come out. And after like 18 hours, my wife was like, "Hey, I need something. I don't think I can do this." Because she had been 18 hours. I was on like my 30th coffee and monster trying to keep pace with her and like stay awake and it was brutal. So the very first child, we videoed it. The whole thing on video. The second kit set up, getting ready to video. My mother-in-law is the one running the video camera. After the baby's born, we checked the... She had started the thing then when she meant to hit record, she stopped it. You see her hitting the button right before. And then right after she comes out, she hits the button and starts again. So we missed the entire

Kiona:

Oh,

Thad:

birth.

Kiona:

no.

Thad:

And then Owen's birth, we got on camera again. So, of course, the middle kid doesn't...

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

get anything.I remember she was in labor for about 18 hours. No drugs, no nothing. And then finally she was like, "Hey, look, I got to get it... I got to get something. This pain is unbelievable." They couldn't give her an epidural because it was too far. Like, the anesthesiologist was like, "Look, your contractions are, like, too... It's risky to do this. We can't give you an epidural." So they gave her some kind of IV pain med. And then they gave her some Pitocin to kind of help the process. And then she went in the birthing tub, kind of did the birthing tub for, like, four hours. And the water was getting cold. So they were like, "Okay, we gotta get you out and, like, put new hot..." And then by that time, he started to come. So they couldn't put her back in the tub because it wasn't ready

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Thad:

yet. So, at the 23rd hour, he came out. It was great. It was the same thing. I asked,"Hey, I've done this before. Can I deliver?" And they were like,"Yeah." So, this time they let me do the whole thing. So I, like, the doctor, the OB was right there beside me. And she was like, "Okay, now turn him to the right about 20 degrees." And I kind of like... They have, like, this whole... choreographed thing that the doctor could give a nod to the nurse. And the nurse was, was up by my wife, knew what to say to her.

Kiona:

Uh-huh.

Thad:

It was really cool to see how in tune, they all... It's like a well-oiled machine, how they just, like, hand and arm signals. Or maybe they just look at them. And I don't know how they did it. But, yeah, so I clamped the cord and then I cut it. He was a little jaundice, and so they had to put him on the, uh, the little Billy Reuben with the little goggles. He had to do it for a while. And so we had to stay in the hospital an extra day with him. But, all in all, it was an easy, easy birth. And the kids, we made him little t-shirts that said Team Owen.

Kiona:

Oh,

Thad:

And,

Kiona:

cute.

Thad:

uh, they got to draw on the shirts. And so they were, like, sporting their shirts. And as a dad, as the partner, and I'm the kind of guy, like, when I get sick, like, the world ends for me. I'm like, oh, I need... And my wife is over here, just, like, the most excruciating pain. And I was, like, falling asleep. Like, I'm trying to, like, push on the smaller back. And I'm, like, I'm just passing out because I'm so tired. And it's crazy how the women can push through that pain and tiredness.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Thad:

I don't think I could do it.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Thad:

Truthfully.

Kiona:

I don't think you could either. No, I'm just kidding.

Thad:

My wife reminds me of that all the time.

Kiona:

No, it is. It's definitely so challenging. And truthfully, I think that if... The birthing people had a choice to be able to, like, take a pause and be like, all right, let's pause and come back to this and still have the same amount of progress. I feel like we would pause. Because nobody wants to just sit there in the toughness for too long. And, of course, there are people that have the right mentality that can push them through that without it feeling traumatic. Right? Because

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

there are... There's definitely a line between coping and suffering. I've said this in the past on the podcast. But the birthing person knows that line between, I can cope with this pain, I can do this, versus, oh, my gosh, like, I'm now suffering and I don't even know how to handle this emotion or feeling anymore.

Thad:

Yeah. And the people that are, like, the staff that was helping, they did do a crew swap, they shift change. But the midwife stayed and the... we got a new OB, but the midwife stayed the whole 24 hours with us, which is crazy. You know, she has a family and things going on. But she's like, no, I'm here for you. I'm staying. And it was really cool.

Kiona:

Yeah. Continuity of care is so important, too, throughout that. So I think that's really awesome. That is so cool. Just to be able to, like, hear your perspective from the partner point of view, I think is so important for people to hear. Because a lot of voices on my podcast in particular are the birthing people, or some of them are birth workers as well. But I do have some partners on, and I'm just wanting to continue to get more partners because the way that you see birth is so different than the person who's experiencing it. And I really love how you mentioned the emotional side of it for you. I love that. I think that's really important. There's a few things that I want to do before we end this. We went through all of your pregnancy and birth stories. So you do have a quick little bonus of a baby being born when you were on duty in the helicopter. So talk to us briefly about that.

Thad:

So I was a medevac pilot in Korea. We were there primarily to evacuate soldiers. And at this particular time, I was on the DMZ, the demilitarized zone in Korea. Wow. There are soldiers that are up there on the DMZ that have their wives who are Korean and live there. These guys are unaccompanied, but their wife, it's weird, like their wife lives in the village and they live on the base, but they're like, you can walk like 100 feet to there or whatever. So like out the little gate. And so a lot of times they just sleep at their house. Very uncommon to have a pregnancy. I mean, there are lots of pregnancies, but they usually will be born in like a Korean hospital. Or in this particular case, the lady came into what they call a TMC, which is a troop medical clinic, which sometimes family members can go, but usually not. But they brought her in because she was having, uh, I don't know if she didn't know she was pregnant or there was a language barrier because she was from the Philippines. So there was a language barrier and it was like a Saturday morning and the phone rings like, Hey, we have an urgent medevac. And, you know, I start taking the details down and, uh, Steve, he was the medic and he's like, Hey, it's a pregnancy, you know, fire up the bird. We got to go. And so me and the other pilot went out and get the helicopter ready and they bring her out and stretch her. And she's got like, she's a very small frame lady, but like, you can tell, like, there's a little, like a little baby bump. And I'm just thinking like, okay, whatever. This is like another wife that needs to go down to Seoul. Cause we're up on the North, on the border of North and South Korea. It's, you know, about a 25 minute flight down to Seoul, which would by car would have taken hours. We take off. He's like, Hey, how long before we get there? And I'm like, oh, I'm going to, you know, 32 minutes. We'll be on the ground. He's like, you're going to have to make it faster. And he's like, I can see the head. And I'm like, do not let that baby come out on this helicopter. And he's like, we don't have a choice. And a black Hawk is not. If you've seen the movies, how they're like having a conversation in the back, you, it is the loudest. There is, we, we have like a intercommunication system, which we have earphones and a microphone that we can talk to each other, but it is loud and dirty. It's, it's very, very utilitarian. It's made for soldiers. And so here, this lady is, yeah, I can hear like moaning and groaning and from this baby come out and he's like, okay, I got, he's like talking like in the movies. He's like, okay, I can see the head. The head's coming. And as we got down, we were by the Han river kind of wraps around Seoul. We were at this place. It's a checkpoint called Venturi. It's a confluence of two rivers. He's like, okay, we have a baby. And the baby was born in the air. I think I was at 1200 feet. Cause I remember I wrote it all down. Like I was at 1200 feet, like 130 knots over these two rivers. I wrote down the lat long, the latitude and longitude for the parents to say, this is where your baby was born in the back of, and I gave him the tail number of the helicopter. The baby came out. He's like, dude, what do I do with a, cause he's a medic, like an EMT, you know, he's not, he's a soldier, not trained on babies.

Kiona:

Right.

Thad:

And the crazy thing is they didn't send a nurse either, which normally in a situation like that, they would have put like a nurse on board for whatever reason they did it. You ever seen those green army blankets, those wool green army blankets? We had a shit ton of those. I'm sorry. We had a bunch of those. So he sent the baby like on the mom, but the umbilical cord is still attached. And then he put blankets all over him. And the poor baby is so loud in there. Like he was like, dude, what do I do for the, cause the crew chief was back there. Who's, who's not a medical guy. He's like a mechanic. He, they're like, we have these like head sets that can go. And so they're trying to put the headset on the baby, but the baby's head is like, these are adult headsets. So like the ear cups are like the size of the baby's head. And they're like, you know, you get these two dudes back there. Like it doesn't fit. It's for an adult. And so he was like holding his hands over the, the baby's ears. Cause it was so loud. And we still had like 10 minutes to go. I radioed ahead and said, Hey, we have a baby. I need like, he was telling me what to say, like NICU, bloodlust, medical stuff. I don't know because he's working on the baby. So we landed in the ambulance was there and they took her and the baby in the stretcher. That baby was born over in the skies of Korea and an army black hawk.

Kiona:

Wow. What a story to tell. T awesome. Okay. So Thad, we have just a little bit more time. I would love for you to talk about your show because you have a podcast yourself. So give me your spiel and I will direct some people to your website and all that good stuff.

Thad:

Yeah, uh, so we have a podcast called Alone and Unfraid. Uh, it's myself and my co-host is a guy named Tyler. We're both in the Army together, both helicopter air crew. The podcast is about, mostly about veteran and military kind of mental health stuff. And, uh, I started the podcast as a way to cope with not being in the Army anymore. It's very disorienting when you spend a lifetime. You know, some people will say, like, I've done half my adult life as this job. I spent half of my entire life in the Army. Like, I was in there from the time I was 19 until I was 43. So, it was a very difficult transition to become a civilian. I'm still figuring it out. We don't talk the same as people. It's a completely different world. Doesn't mean they can't co-exist. It just means it's really difficult. So, I started a podcast just as a way for me to, I had done a couple of talk therapy sessions. I don't know what I was doing with those people. They were nice. But they didn't really understand the world I came from. One of the things I remember saying is, like, yeah, we swacked a bunch of guys on Friday. And then at Sunday, I was at Chuck E. Cheese with my kids. Like,

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Thad:

A lot of the civilian folks just can't wrap their head around that. And so, I thought, I just do most of the talking anyway. I should just record myself. And then I'll research the topics that I'm talking about. And so, I made a couple. And I was like, oh, this is actually, like, kind of cathartic for me. And I never released any of them. And then Tyler, my co-host, I actually hired him. I was his boss in our civilian job because we were still flying helicopters. I still fly helicopters. He had a podcast because he does, like, adventure racing. And so, he's like, hey, do you want to come on my podcast? I was like, well, if you come on my podcast. So, he came on my podcast first. And kind of the story about him getting out of the Army. We went to a very emotional and dark place very quickly that neither one of us was prepared for. And we kind of got a little vulnerable, which men typically don't do. We're like, let's put this out to the world. So, we put it out to the world. And it, like, went like wildfire through our community. And so, we kept making more and more. And so, most of our podcasts are about mental health, resilience. There are a lot of very difficult conversations we have in there, from suicide to PTSD. There's all kinds of stuff we talk about. So, it's called Alone and Unafraid. You can check us out at aloneandunafraid. org. If you're interested in mental health in general, but with a veteran twist, with a little bit of sick dude humor, the more that I do this, the more kind of granola and hippie I migrate, you know? This would not have been me if I hadn't found the podcast space. So, yeah, check us out, Alone and Unafraid. It's on wherever you get your podcasts. We're on all the... We have a little skeleton guy with the thumbs up. That's us.

Kiona:

All of that info for your podcast will be on the page for this episode, the show notes. You'll hear that in the end during the outro. You will hear exactly what the URL is for that. So, definitely check it out. You'll also see amazing photos of Thad and his children and family, as well as you in your helicopter. So, you'll definitely see all of those things. Now, Thad, I have three final closing questions for you, okay? My first question to you would be, if you could give advice to all partners that are preparing for pregnancy, labor, and birth, what advice would you give?

Thad:

I would say be present. Put them first. Kind of take a back seat. They're going to be on a different level of enthusiasm than you are and just kind of go along, get along. And don't stress. I had a good friend of mine tell me babies will be born, the baby will come when it comes. Just be present and enjoy it. Try to mentally capture everything. You know, I didn't take any pictures of the first kid because I was in the zone. I was there. I wish I had of, because pictures can help you remember a little bit. By the third one, I had it down. Like, I was ready. And I was there in the moment, but I had other people taking pictures. I gave the nurses, like, two cameras. I was like, look, you guys' job is to take pictures until you got to do medical stuff. And they were all about it.

Kiona:

Love it. Yeah, that's great. I think that's great advice is to kind of go with the flow and also be present. Yeah.

Thad:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. So my second question is, if there was a resource that you would like to share with the listeners, what would that resource be?

Thad:

If social media was a thing back there, like, watching other people's birth stories or, like, listening to something like this probably would have prepped me a little bit better, but there's also something awesome about coming into it completely blind, like, not, like, the awe is way better when you don't know what's going to happen because by the third time, I kind of knew what was going to happen, but the first time, it was awesome experiencing it. And so, as far as resources, I've been out of the baby game for 15 years, but that what to expect when you're expecting book, is it still, like, the standard?

Kiona:

Still around, mm-hmm.

Thad:

Who knows if that information in there is right, but there's a few things that I gleaned from that book.

Kiona:

Yeah. And my final question for you is, if you could describe each of your births, and you can include the miscarriage if you'd like, with one word, what would it be?

Thad:

Miraculous is probably where I would, the one word I would use for all of them, even the miscarriage, because I firmly believe that every, not to be cliche, but everything happens for a reason. I firmly believe that things are not predestined, but things go the way they're supposed to go. And so, I would say miraculous is, I would like to describe it with as many words as I can, but there's really nothing that can describe that feeling. We don't have a word for it.

Kiona:

I understand exactly what you mean. There's not enough words in the vocabulary to even describe it.

Thad:

Yeah, yeah, I could not write a book to get to the point

Kiona:

Right,

Thad:

of it,

Kiona:

yeah. You

Thad:

yeah.

Kiona:

just got to experience it and feel it yourself.

Thad:

Hey, one quick thing is, when my wife listens to this, there is some probability that I have some things slightly wrong, like... It might have been like 48 stitches or 39. I feel like it was

Kiona:

Right,

Thad:

43.

Kiona:

right.

Thad:

So, if she listens to this, like, I did the best I could.

Kiona:

That's perfect. Yes, we will retell and we'll see what she thinks. She's probably going to say, he was wrong about so many things. Yeah, no, that's totally fine. Well, Thad, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me and for being vulnerable with me, because that is definitely part of this process and in this conversation. And I absolutely know for sure that there will be partners out there that will be able to relate to your perspective. And also birthing people that will appreciate your perspective so that they can share it and pass it along to the world. So, thank you.

Thad:

Yeah, I'm happy to share with you and thanks for having me.

Outro:

How beautiful was that? Such an amazing perspective to all of the things that happened with Patti during her pregnancies and how Thad felt throughout each of the situations. The transitions and adjustments that both Thad and Patti had to make, especially when they found out they were pregnant with their second baby and he was deployed, truly amazing that they were able to make all of that work. Thad, thank you so much again for sharing your birth stories with us. And Patti, Thad is so right. You are such a badass. Thank you so much for letting these stories be shared. And we are so happy that the world gets to hear your stories. And listeners, don't forget to check out Thad's podcast as well. It is at aloneandunafraid. org. And once again, thanks to Scott Johnson, the host and producer of the What Was That Like podcast for making this episode release possible. You can learn more about his podcast by going to whatwasthatlike.com. Now, if you want to see the show notes and the images for this episode, you can go to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/91. All right, friends. Bye for now.

Head Shot

Kiona Nessenbaum

Host

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