Birth As We Know It ™️-Birth Stories and Experiences

93-Brandy Love-2 Vaginal Births-Owen & Oliver

• Episode 93

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Brandy takes us all through the journey of what it is like for her to become pregnant with and give birth to two juicy babies with her husband, Demar, by her side. She also talks us through what experiencing a shoulder dystocia with Oliver was like for her mentally as it was happening, and she touches on the importance of reaching out sooner rather than later when experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety symptoms. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only, with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.  

Want to hear another great birth story? Listen to episode 85-Amanda Clarke-Ray-3 Vaginal Births-Aila, Norah & Haiden

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Intro:

Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I've realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you're ready. With that said, let's prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.

Disclaimer:

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.

Kiona:

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today, I have on Brandy Love. And Brandy is going to be talking about her two vaginal birth experiences with her sons, Owen and Oliver. So Brandy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Brandy:

Thanks for having me.

Kiona:

Let's go ahead and dive right in. So let's talk about the conception process.

Brandy:

So with Owen, our oldest, we were in the process of buying a house and moving out of a tiny apartment. And we kind of tried, like, not not really trying. And then after one month, I was like, yeah, no, I can't take this not positive. We're either going to try or we're not. And so the next month, we 100% tried and conceived him on the first try. So we were pretty fortunate because I, you know, didn't know if it was going to work, if we were going to have issues, if, you know, he was going to have issues. So we got really lucky on that, I think.

Kiona:

Yeah, yeah. So tell me what it felt like for you to get that positive after trying.

Brandy:

Um, I would say it was slightly terrifying, but also very exciting. I remember it was like 520 in the morning before I had to go to work that day. And I was like, today's the day. It's the day before I'm going to test. And so as soon as it turned positive, I went running across the house to go wake up my husband. He was all excited. we had to send out text messages to everyone. And people weren't very appreciative of a 530 in the morning text message. But that's okay.

Kiona:

And

Brandy:

We're excited.

Kiona:

Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you told everybody right away, like as soon as you knew that you were pregnant, you decided to tell all of your close family and friends.

Brandy:

Yes, yes, we did.

Kiona:

Awesome. What were their reactions? Were they also excited? Or were they nervous?

Brandy:

They were all excited. They knew that we had been talking about trying and wanting to plan a family and things like that. So I don't think they were surprised. But they were all excited for sure.

Kiona:

Oh, that's awesome. Let's dive into what your pregnancy was like. Did you experience any really heavy symptoms or anything like that?

Brandy:

No, not really. Again, I feel like I got lucky. I I had like sciatic issues prior to being pregnant. And then my pregnancy actually fixed it. So I ended up in a better situation. I was a walking carrier. So I'm a mail carrier. And I walked 13 miles a day when I got pregnant with Owen. And so I had been with that issue, which made it a lot harder. And then I was so relieved when it went away, like the bigger I got, the better it got.

Kiona:

Yeah,

Brandy:

it's great.

Kiona:

That is so interesting. Because I guess it's just the way that your body was carrying Owen that like something shifted to relieve that sciatica pain.

Brandy:

Yeah, I was happy about it.

Kiona:

Wow.

Brandy:

But I didn't have like morning sickness. I mean, I had like normal aches and pains. I think when you're carrying a big baby, like you're gonna hurt. But I didn't have any nausea, no vomiting, no stretch marks.

Kiona:

Nice.

Brandy:

No, it was, I loved being pregnant. My husband disagrees, but I loved it. So okay.

Kiona:

Yeah, yeah. Hey, even if we complain during pregnancy, it doesn't mean we don't love it. It just means like we want to complain a little bit. Like it's new for us and, you know, there's new things that we didn't experience before that we want to talk about.

Brandy:

And it's a lot. It's a lot of changes. So it makes sense to complain even if you love it.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah, absolutely. So did you do anything throughout your pregnancy to like prepare and ready you for giving birth?

Brandy:

No, I should have and I did not. In my OB, she recommended that we take like a Lamaze class or something like that. And we both just kind of looked at each other like, nah, we'll figure it out. I'm meant to do this. It's fine. It probably would have been a good idea. But we, you know, we managed and I prepared, you know, the nursery and picked out all the clothes and the things that we wanted. But as for like the birth itself, no, we went in totally blind.

Kiona:

So, When you realize it was the big day, and you were about to have a baby, like, how did that decision impact what was happening during your labor?

Brandy:

Which I shouldn't have been. So the morning I went into labor, I started the day going to work. And had used the bathroom before going out to my route, and had lost my plug. And so I told my supervisor, I was like, hey, don't be surprised if I end up going to the hospital today. I'm pretty sure something's off. It doesn't feel the same. Pretty sure I'm having a baby today. So I go through, I do my whole 13 mile route, get done with the day, still nothing, nothing's changed. And I was like, okay, maybe I was just overanalyzing. And so, you know, we go about, I got off work about 3.30, and then, you know, go home, did all our normal showers, ate dinner. And then I just happened to sit down on the couch, and all of a sudden I hear this pop. And I looked at my husband, I was like, I think I might have just peed myself. And he's like, well, you should go take care of that, you know, go clean up. And so I did, and as I'm, you know, taking care of it, changing my clothes and everything, I notice that I'm having these little contractions. It's like, oh, that's new. Like, I wonder if I just overdid it today. And so I go and sit down again, and it feels like I peed myself again. And I was like, no, I think my water might have broke. So we had to go through the process of not knowing. And so I called, you know, the labor and delivery and told them what was going on. I happened to be 10 days early at that point, which is why it kind of caught me off guard. I was like, oh, no, it doesn't happen this early. Like, I'm fine. I've got two weeks. But, you know, they told me, no, go ahead and come in. We'll test and, you know, we'll either send you home or if your water did break, then you're here till you have a baby.

Kiona:

It never happens like in the movies, right? It's never like a big, gosh, well, I can't say never. It's true. Sometimes it does happen that way. But when people people don't know what to expect when labor starts, especially like as a first-time parent, most people kind of expect their water to break first. And the fact that you kind of knew things were off a little bit. And first off, I want to commend you for being able to do a 13-mile route every day. That's a lot.

Brandy:

Five to six days a week, yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah, that's insane. I mean, so with that route, did you get any swelling in your legs or anything like that? Because you were on your feet.

Brandy:

No, I didn't. I mean, no more than normal. So even just walking that much as a normal person, it would not swell. But no, it wasn't like anything above what my usual was. So that was good.

Kiona:

Yeah. Okay, so, I mean, good for you. But, okay, so your water breaks, you do all the things, you call, and they say, yep, go ahead and come on in. What happens next?

Brandy:

So they didn't admit me at first, they just had me do the test, which they had to stick a swab inside my, I assume, just up near my uterus? I don't know, she wasn't very descriptive. Anyways, stick a swab in, leave it for 60 seconds, and then send it to the lab to test it for amniotic fluid, is how they did it for me. And it probably took, like, an hour and a half before they even got the results. So by the time that they got the results, we got there about eight. So it was almost ten by the time that they were like, yep, you're having a baby, that's amniotic fluid. So they got me admitted, and then pretty much were just like, all right, now let's wait and see what happens, because I was dilated to a zero. Like, I had dilated at all, but my water had broke. For me, I was like, how does that even happen? If I'm not dilated, how is the water coming out?

Kiona:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, if you think about it, like, even though you're like, not dilated at all, like, it's, it's like if you're trying to hold water in your fist, right? Like you, you can still put your hands together, there's still that little bit of water that's going to seep out, you know? So just through the crevices, like, even though they can't stick a finger in, there's still that fluid as thin as all be it, and it comes on out. So that is definitely interesting. so what's happening next? Like, what is your body doing? And what's going through your mind?

Brandy:

Um, Um, so my contractions at that point still weren't hurting very bad. Uh, and I think it was probably about three or four hours where we just kind of like, I bounced on a birthing ball and we wandered around the hospital and it just got to the point to where it was so, painful, at least for me. Um, but I had never been around anybody in labor really, or dealing with contractions. Like all the babies in my family were always states away when they were born. So I didn't have any frame of reference for what it would actually feel like. And so I was kind like, well, I've heard if you have to stop walking and focus, then, you know, you're making progress. So after, you know, that three or four hours, we kind of went back and they checked again and they're like, oh yeah, you're only at a three. And I was like, really? All that pain. And I'm only at a three. So I tried really, really hard to not get an epidural because I wanted to do it natural. And after Probably probably five or six hours of just constant pain, and they told me I had only made it to a four. I was like, no, I can't, I can't do this. Go ahead and just do the epidural. So it was probably two-ish in the morning. I finally got an epidural. And then everything stopped. Contractions slowed down. I mean, my pain obviously was mostly gone. Turns out that epidural only worked on the right side, not the left. So it was kind of a wonky setup. But But I wasn't dilating anymore. They had me do like the peanut ball and switch from side to side. They wouldn't let me out of bed anymore.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Brandy:

It The worst part. It was rough. The epidural helped, but it was still painful for sure.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say when you told me just now, yeah, I'm only at a three. I was like, oh girl, that's good. Good For that, like, you know, that's a good amount of progress that you made in three or four hours, especially in early labor. But then you went on to say a couple hours later, you were at a four and it was just too much for you. That also makes sense. I understand that as well. And having that be such a hard mental place to be, especially if you don't know what labor is supposed to look like and feel like. And all of these examples that are around you are so far away and probably lacking details. And And I've heard a lot more about like epidurals that aren't working as well as they should. And to be fair, anesthesiologists are human as well. And then they're, you know, putting the needle into so many different people with different anatomy, even though it's generally the same, like the depth of that needle truly matters and the angle of which side goes on and all that good stuff. So what happens next?

Brandy:

So So after the epidural, which was, I think, around the 2am mark, my doctor actually happened to be the on-call that weekend. So I lucked out there. My son picked a great weekend to come early. She She came probably about 4, 4.30 and checked me again. And I still hadn't progressed at all. So she just let me continue through the night, checked me again at, I believe, 7 to 8 in the morning. Shift change happens at 7 at our hospital. So it was kind of like when she came in with the new nurses and did all the introductions and checked me. I still hadn't changed at all. So that was when she decided that we should start some Pitocin, which I had not researched. I didn't know anything about it, but I also wholeheartedly trusted my OB to not misguide. And coincidentally, she delivered my husband's younger brother as well as one of our nephews. It wasn't like, you know, some random OB we'd met before. Like we trusted she knew what she was doing. So we do the Pitocin and Which then amplified all my contractions, um, things started moving again, but it just seemed like it was going so slow. Which at the time, I was frustrated about, but then afterwards, I had done some research and was like, oh no, no, that's normal when you're having your first child and your body's not, not already stretched out. So, yeah, I think we did the, the Pitocin most of the day, and then I think about the time I was at an eight or a nine, she dialed it back and then let my body kind of relax and come into it. Basically, she just told me to rest as much as I could through that day. And there was one nurse who kept telling me, every time she'd leave on shift, cause she was there when I first came in to get tested for amniotic fluid, and then she had left the next morning, and then she was coming in again, and she's like, this baby better be out by the time I get back so I can meet it. He wasn't.

Kiona:

Oh.

Brandy:

He wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't there for her. But, yeah, it ended up being, like, 23 hours of labor from start to delivery, And and I vaguely, vaguely remember that transition between, like, the nine to ten, cause I was so tired and so exhausted already, but I was also ready to be done and hold my baby, of course. I want to say it was about five o'clock, and one of the nurses was like, well, you've been on liquids this whole time, and you keep saying you want food. She's like, you have to get this baby out so that you can eat dinner, cause I think dinner was at, like, 530 or something was when they would bring the food around. finally ready to push right around the five o'clock mark, I just remember pushing as hard as I could, and it seemed like it took forever. but then my doctor told me when he finally came out, had only been about 45 minutes, and I just could not believe it felt like it had been three hours of pushing. It was a lot.

Kiona:

Yeah, that birth zone time warp is so real,

Brandy:

Well, and it didn't help that midway, like, mid 45-minute pushing, my nurse actually completely turned the epidural off, so by the time he was born, nothing was helping anymore. It wasn't until he was finally born that I got more relief again. So, it's like she turned it off, and then it slowly just kept getting more and more painful until finally he was out.

Kiona:

Yeah, yeah. Some people do actually do that as, like, a technique on helping the pushing phase go quicker technique because the epidural numbs you, right? Which is what people want, but the numbing of the epidural can cause a little bit of, fogginess between The receptors that say sensation to So, when they take that epidural away and start to bring back sensation, it makes it easier for people to recognize what a true push feels like and what muscles to use with that push. But doing it without consent is probably not the best thing. I would always say, hey, use it as an option. Is this something that you want to do to help? And here's why, like kind of giving that informed decision making. But... Yeah, 45 minutes is a good pushing, uh, length of time. And you pushed out an eight pound, three ounce chunker.

Brandy:

I I did, yeah.

Kiona:

for a first time baby, that is a juicy one. How did that feel for you?

Brandy:

it was comical, in the delivery room. So my OB, who at that point, I believe was 25 years plus as an OB, she, she had actually commented that he was big. And when they put him on my chest for the skin to skin and to clean him up and clamp and cut the cord, all of that, I was like, oh my gosh, he's so little, you know, like, cause it's a little baby. It came out of my belly. And I think there was probably three nurses and the doctor all looked at me and like, you don't know what little is. This is a big baby. So it was, you know, everybody's laughing and in the delivery room at this point, but it was, yeah, I was completely caught off guard by that. My sister was like, oh no, my biggest was only like six pounds, 10 ounces. My mom told me her biggest was only seven pounds. So I was like, oh, okay, six to seven pounds. That seems reasonable. I expect expect over eight at all.

Kiona:

does your husband know how big he was when he was born?

Brandy:

He was eight one.

Kiona:

Ah, there it is.

Brandy:

Yes.

Kiona:

There it is.

Brandy:

He's also over six feet. So I probably should have kind of seen it coming. But the women in my family are always on the smaller side because I'm only and my sister's like barely five thought I might have a smaller baby than eight pounds, but apparently not.

Kiona:

Yeah. I mean, your husband just took that right out of the water.

Brandy:

not

Kiona:

That's six foot, over six foot, you know, good sized dude. Yeah. Um, definitely eight pounders all the way. Or we'll get

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

to the

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

next one. okay. Awesome. So during that immediate postpartum time and he's on your chest, what's going through your minds. Like, how are you feeling at that moment? It's what you've been waiting for.

Brandy:

Oh, I was relieved. I was checking out fingers and toes. We had to count them all and get them wrapped up and cut the cord. And then about the time that we were just kind of like taking a breath, the cafeteria gal popped her head in and said, Hey, do you want some food? So we spent the skin to skin time. Um, my husband was feeding me food while I was holding our son and it The most blissful I had been in so long. It was great.

Kiona:

Yes. I love that. And I bet the food, even though it was hospital food, probably just tasted so good to actually consume.

Brandy:

It was, it was grapes, uh, melon, pineapple, and a turkey cheese sandwich.

Kiona:

This is life changing.

Brandy:

It was, it was.

Kiona:

Yes.

Brandy:

Taked off jello and broth for 24 hours.

Kiona:

Right.

Brandy:

Tastes amazing.

Kiona:

Yeah. Love that. I love that. So listeners will be curious because of your eight pound, three ounce chunker. Did you tear?

Brandy:

I did not.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Brandy:

I don't know how I didn't, but I did not.

Kiona:

It's so insane. It's so insane. Um, what our bodies are capable of.

Brandy:

Yeah. Yeah. I thought for sure when they weighed him out, but no, she, she was like, I'm going to, you know, do a good check and make sure. Cause we don't want to leave anything undressed. And she's like, Nope, there's, there's nothing, nothing to stitch, no concerns. Like you're good to just heal. Okay.

Kiona:

yes. So no tears, nothing. How is your healing and what is your feeding choice? So those are two separate questions.

Brandy:

Feed-In Choice, we... Well, it's not really we, it was my choice. Um, I was 100%, I was going to make breastfeeding work, like that's what I wanted to do. I had actually done some research between, you know, formula and breastfeeding and, you know, although my personal opinion is fed as best, for me, I wanted to breastfeed. I wanted to be able to provide for my children. Um, and again, I feel like I was pretty fortunate because I am a over producer. He He was a really good latcher from the start. Um, they didn't ever have any concerns. just being a new mom around here, they automatically schedule you for like a three day postpartum lactation consultant appointment. we thought it was pretty cool they would weigh him and then have me feed him and then weigh him again to see how much he put down. And he was three days old and already drinking like an ounce and a half is what she had told me. So they. They weren't concerned. but the healing was slow, slow, which, you know, makes sense when you push out a big baby and then you have to feed and care for said baby. But yeah, my husband was really helpful. He made sure that I had, you know, food and water and anything I needed. So I didn't have to get up more than was was necessary. basically I got to hang out at home, snuggle my baby, and we just kind of took it easy for a while and enjoyed our new little family.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And also, I'm not surprised to hear that he was putting down an ounce and a half at three days old. That size baby in and I'm not trying to focus too much on the size here because all babies are wonderful, like regardless of what size they come out as they still have the potential to thrive and be amazing. but yeah, ounce and a half. That's, that's a good amount of breast milk. And it's good that you were an overproducer because it sounds like you were able to keep up with his demand. And that's great. That's what you need.

Brandy:

Uh, well, and it's one of the things they had told us after he was born was, oh, don't be surprised if he just sleeps for the first day. He probably won't eat a whole lot, probably won't be up a whole lot. And it was the opposite. He was demanding food like every hour, hour and a half. He was not sleeping the whole time. I was like, you promised me some quiet. Where's the quiet? Because I just wanted to lay there and snuggle my little baby.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. And just to clarify, you weren't diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

Brandy:

No, I was not.

Kiona:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's wonderful. That is so wonderful. You had an amazing, what, from what it sounds like you're explaining, somewhat easy pregnancy. And you gave birth to a beautiful, sized, healthy baby boy, had a really solid breastfeeding experience. I think that is all positive. I think that's great. Now, Owen is born. And at what point did you realize that you and Deemar were ready to have another?

Brandy:

I wanted another one from day one. My oldest, he is such a sweet little boy. Like, he could convince anybody at that age to have another child. My husband, however, took some convincing. And I was hoping to try for another one, at least around the time that Owen was like a year and a half. But it ended up being more like two and a half. which is fine. It's not too big of a difference. In hindsight, I think that was a good, a good split. So, but yeah, it was, I always wanted more than one. My husband agreed to three in the beginning. And then we both decided two was a good number.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's a good balance, you know, compromise and also realization of how much work kids are.

Brandy:

Yes, definitely.

Kiona:

was your conception as easy this time around?

Brandy:

It was. We, again, half-heartedly tried the first month. my husband had this theory that, depending on ovulation, we could try to conceive a girl, 'cause, you know, we both were like, "Yeah, a girl would be great." And so, we kinda tried his theory, which there may be truth behind it, there may not. I'm not too concerned, 'cause it didn't work for us. But we tried that the first month and didn't get pregnant, so then the next month, I was like, "I don't care if it's a boy or a girl, so we're not gonna bother with the theory, we're just gonna try to get pregnant."

Kiona:

Awesome. Awesome. And so, what did it feel that time finding out that you were pregnant? Was it still a little bit getting a little terrified knowing that you were gonna do it again, or was it more excitement?

Brandy:

I was not terrified at all. I was excited. I think I was testing, like, three days before my missed period, like,"Is it there?" checking every I ecstatic when it finally, like, you know, when you look at it and you're like, "Is that a faint positive? I think it's a faint positive." It's kind of what I was doing. I would take the pictures and then compare from that day to the next day, and... So much.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm. No. I mean, I think it's great, because having...doing that kind of testing is kind of the only way that you can truly grasp the reality of what's going on. You know, you're like, "Cause you may not feel symptoms yet, and you're kind of just waiting for a missed period." But those two weeks of, between, like, conception and, like, finding out, feel so long.

Brandy:

It does.

Kiona:

It

Brandy:

It feels...

Kiona:

feels...

Brandy:

Months.

Kiona:

Yeah. And then when you're finally, like, testing and testing, then you see a little bit of faint of something, you still have to be patient. And you can't get too excited because you need a more darker positive or go to get a blood test or something to, like, solidify that it's actually happening. So, yeah, I would not say that you were overdoing it.

Brandy:

Yeah,

Kiona:

I think it's more along the lines of, "Yeah, this is what I have control over right now, and I can pee on as many sticks as I want to get reassurance." So...

Brandy:

And in case you're wondering, FSA can pay for pregnancy tests.

Kiona:

Yes. Yes, it can. Yeah. So how was your pregnancy with Oliver then? How was it different than with Owen?

Brandy:

Um, the biggest difference was I was a lot more exhausted. A two-and-a-half year old around, while growing a human is tiring.

Kiona:

Yes.

Brandy:

But but it became, because I was never a nap-when-the-baby-naps kind of a person with Owen, and then when I was pregnant, I was like,"He's napping, I'm napping. I have to get that sleep." Like,"I have to get that sleep." Because at two-and-a-half even, he was still getting up in the night, so I wasn't even getting, you know, the solid sleep at night, Again, I didn't have morning sickness. The biggest difference is with Owen, I could not eat enough fruit, specifically watermelon. Like, I just had to have it. If it was available, I had to have it. I could probably eat a whole one myself. Well, with Oliver, it was sour gummies. Anytime I went to the store, I had to buy sour gummies. And the more sour, the more it hit the spot. Which very much describes them now. Owen loves fruit. All the fruit. And Oliver, he loves all the sours. He loves lemonade. He loves, you know, warheads.

Kiona:

Hmm...

Brandy:

Anything sour, he's on it.

Kiona:

Isn't that so interesting?

Brandy:

It's crazy. It's

Kiona:

it's so interesting. And so, throughout your pregnancy with Oliver, you're trucking along. Things are going well. At what point did you realize, okay, it's time to have a baby?

Brandy:

I think I kind of got a little bit anxious about it at the same point as when I had gone into labor with Owen. So, about that 10 days to two weeks early, I was kind of, like, hypersensitive, kind of waiting, like, is it going to happen? You know, like, do I feel the same as I did? But my OB with Oliver... Actually had me go and get an extra scan at 35 weeks because she said I was measuring full term already, so she was worried that there was too much fluid or that he was going to be a giant baby. And so they sent me in and I got the scan and then it came back and they're like, no, by our measurements, he's only, you know, just under six pounds. He's not, you know, he's not eight pounds already. You're fine there. There's not a bunch of fluid. So there was never really a determination on why I was measuring full term at 35 weeks, especially when she knew that we knew just when we conceived. I was just at that hypersensitive point and just kept waiting and waiting and waiting, and then I think it was at 39 weeks. I was two centimeters dilated already. but nothing else to indicate that, you know, could or couldn't go at any moment, you know? Yeah. Um, and so we went ahead and I had her do a membrane sweep, which is still makes me laugh because I commented to her. She's like, well, I don't have to, but if you, you know, if you're wanting him to come, we can try this. I said, yeah, sure. What could it hurt? She's like, well, actually it does hurt. Like, well, that's not what I meant, but thanks. Thanks for the warning. so we went ahead and, and did that, uh, which did not prove to be fruitful at all. So, she had me come back in, I think four days later to check again. and my husband and I were both concerned that I was having issues because my hips would randomly just give out. walking and then it would be like, it would pop out of the socket and I'd almost fall.

Kiona:

Were you still a male carrier during this pregnancy?

Brandy:

I was, I was still on the same route, even walking 13 miles a day.

Kiona:

Oh

Brandy:

So,

Kiona:

oh gosh.

Brandy:

yeah, it was.

Kiona:

So it would just give out like throughout your shift.

Brandy:

Yep. Yep. I.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Brandy:

Go to take a step and then my leg wouldn't be catching me very well. Thankfully, I never fell because of it. But the final straw for my husband was when I told him I almost fell down some stairs, which I get.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Brandy:

Makes sense.

Kiona:

Yeah. what time in your pregnancy did that start happening? Was it only near the end?

Brandy:

Yeah, it was probably around 38 weeks it started. And then as I got further, it got a little bit more frequent. Like instead of maybe once a day, it was more two to three times a day.

Kiona:

Hmm.

Brandy:

Yeah. Yeah. hard to walk when you don't know if your hips are going to hold.

Kiona:

So you're walking, your hips are giving out on you. you let your provider know this. what happens after that?

Brandy:

At that point, she kind of suggested that either I take some time off from work and just wait or we decided to go through with a scheduled induction. And that on a Tuesday, which was my 40 week appointment was when we finally decided to look at this and her next on call day was Thursday and she only does inductions on her on call. So she did another membrane sweep at that appointment on Tuesday and was like, either you'll go into labor or we'll induce you Thursday. So I did not go into labor. But I also got a call from the hospital at five 30 on Thursday saying, Hey, don't come in until noon. We had a lot of people come in and give birth. So we don't have room for you yet.

Kiona:

Yeah. Sounds about right.

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah. So then when you did finally get to go into the hospital, how was that for you?

Brandy:

It was completely different. In the regard that with Owen, we went in kind of scared, not knowing what to expect, not knowing if I was or wasn't in not knowing if I was staying or going to be sent home. And then with Oliver, it was like, there was almost a relief knowing, no, I'm coming in. I'm being admitted. I will be leaving with my baby. Instead of the unknown. So it was very calm. Right.

Kiona:

That's

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

good, that's good, yeah. And so, how was your labor different? What did the induction look like for you?

Brandy:

So, I don't know what it's called, I don't know the name of it, um, but it's the little pill that they put right up next to your cervix,

Kiona:

Okay,

Brandy:

um.

Kiona:

it's probably misoprostol.

Brandy:

Okay.

Kiona:

ever. Or cytotec, yeah.

Brandy:

Yeah, I don't think they ever told me what it was. They just described it to me and basically said it was, they were gonna put a pill up there to soften, because by this point I was already at a three. From carrying, I guess. And so, they started with put it in about 1230 by the time, you know, I got checked in and they monitored Baby, make sure that he was doing good. And so, they basically said, okay, we'll check in four hours and see where you're at. so we wandered around the hospital and kind of just walked around to try and see if we could move things along. they had me get monitored again to check on Baby again, and then also checked me, and every time they monitor, they have you stay in They did, I think it's either 30 or 60 minutes to Solid chunk of monitoring. And they finally let me out of bed, said I was at a four, and was like, okay, dinner just got here, you know, go ahead and eat, and then we'll go from My doctor didn't think I needed Pitocin this time because I was progressing enough on my own. the induction had kicked in contractions, but they weren't painful yet. So, as soon as I got to get out of bed, I took two steps, and again, my water just everywhere. Like,

Kiona:

Ah.

Brandy:

movie-style

Kiona:

Here we go.

Brandy:

water everywhere.

Kiona:

We're just talking about how it doesn't happen like

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

the movies, and you're like, actually.

Brandy:

Yeah, yeah. So, that time it did. And so, I had to call the nurses back, and of course, my food was right there on the table. It was so close.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Brandy:

And they put me back in bed, hooked me back up to the monitors, and then said, you don't get to eat that.

Kiona:

Oh,

Brandy:

you. I

Kiona:

gosh.

Brandy:

was

Kiona:

I

Brandy:

like,

Kiona:

still would've taken

Brandy:

come

Kiona:

Bites.

Brandy:

on. I did. Yeah. My husband kind of looked at me, and I just told him, I said, I'm not listening. Bring me my food.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brandy:

So. Which, you know, I get the concerns, but at the same time, after the experience I had last time, I was like, if I'm gonna sit here for 23 more hours, I'm eating that food.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah. For sure. Okay, so your water breaks, and so now, instead of doing intermittent monitoring, they're like, no, you gotta be monitored the whole time now, because baby no longer has cushion. We gotta keep track of what's going on with him in there.

Brandy:

Yep.

Kiona:

So, okay, your water breaks, you still eat some food. Glad you did. What happens next?

Brandy:

seems like it went from zero to a hundred in about five minutes. My contractions without the cushion instantly were like a nine out of ten. I was unfortunate in the fact that every time I had a contraction, they would last so long that as soon as they tapered off, the next one was coming.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Brandy:

I just remember laying on my side in the bed, grabbing the rail so hard that I was white-knuckled cold, and still just tears running down my cheeks because it hurt so bad. And I, again, was so determined. I was like, I couldn't do it last time. I know what to expect this time. I can do it. I can do it without an epidural. And I think in, let's see, my water broke about 4.30, 5 o'clock. By 6 o'clock, I was at a 7 and I just couldn't do it anymore. I think if I had held out a little bit longer, it would have gotten better. But at that time, I had no idea about the whole transition thing. So I was like, I can't do this. If this is what it's going to be, I just can't keep going. So called anesthesia again. Supposedly at our hospital, you're not supposed to get an epidural if you're over 6.

Kiona:

Hmm. Interesting.

Brandy:

Yeah. I don't know why. So my nurse was super sweet and she basically was like, no, skip everybody else. Like, you have to come now. Be here now. And then he showed up. And then everybody was in panic mode because the kit that he had, the iodine had broke. So he needed a new kit and they couldn't find any more kits. Oh, it was It was nerve-wracking because the whole time I'm gripping the bed, dying, or like I'm dying.

Kiona:

Right.

Brandy:

And, And, uh, finally, you know, he gets it going and everything and he's like, okay, I need you to hold still. And I'm mid-contraction, which I knew was going to be a thing because I had to hold still the first time. but the nurse came over and, you know, she was watching as the contraction stuff was feeding out and was kind of like, pause, pause. And then he was ready to go. And I said, no, no, no, no, don't, don't go yet. You know, cause I was waiting for that like five second sweet spot of, as the one tapered off before the next one started. So. So if we could do it then. So I remember sitting there and I'm just like, go, go, go, go now. Like he's like, okay. And so he gets it in, gets it going. Um, it worked great that time. It completely, like, I'm pretty sure I told the anesthesiologist that I loved him after that.

Kiona:

Thank you. Yeah.

Brandy:

He's like, yeah, I'm used to hearing that.

Kiona:

Yeah, I bet. I bet.

Brandy:

Which was the same anesthesiologist as with Owen.

Kiona:

Oh, nice.

Brandy:

Yeah. It just wasn't the middle of the night that time. So maybe.

Kiona:

And was it the same OB? Was your OB the one that was on call this time too?

Brandy:

It was. Yeah. Well, she wasn't on call for me technically, but yes, it was her on call day and she did my induction.

Kiona:

Love that. I love that. Yeah. So, one thing that I really loved about what you said you listened to yourself when you said you couldn't do this anymore. And you were crying and it was really hard. And the reason why I love that so much is because I will talk up and down every single wall in every single building about how you as the birthing person knows your line between coping and suffering. And even though you had the intention to go unmedicated, you were like, nope, no more for me. Like, I know my line. And the fact that your team around you listened to you and supported you in that is great. So I really, I just want to commend you for that too, because that's a, that's something to recognize.

Brandy:

they were very supportive and especially my husband, like, he he wouldn't tell me he wanted it in any particular way because he didn't want to sway personal personal feelings or thoughts on the situation. So much appreciated. Because the last thing you need is somebody telling you how you should handle your body during birth. You've got enough going on. You have other people's opinions on it too.

Kiona:

Right, right. And then also, like, you know, we can't even control birth. So it's like, everything is a preference. And so it's like, if we are talking about we want as preferences, and then other people come in, and they're like, no, actually, you shouldn't do it that way. You're like, shut up. Like, let me, let me just do it the way that I want to do it. Like, I'm already out of control of so many other aspects in what's going on with my body, how I'm being cared for by some providers. Like, you know, you're already giving away so much. So being able to have that as your own thing is great. And of course, you know, like, there is times when, like, partners can come in and talk about, like, well, this is what I thought that it would be like. Like, or I would, what do you think about this? Like, because it's good to have those conversations. But when you, as the birthing person, feel like this is the way I want to do it, just let me do it. Partners should probably take a step back and actually let that happen.

Brandy:

My husband's really good about that. It's up to me how a baby comes out of my body.

Kiona:

Right. And most, I would say most partners fall in those lines, which is good, which is really, really good. So, let's talk about the moment when you finally get to pushing Oliver out.

Brandy:

So, it was a bit of a crazy moment, or, well, moments. I felt like I was ready to push long before they let me push. I was low-key pushing before.

Kiona:

Right. Before they

Brandy:

Not, yeah, not, like, hardcore pushing or anything, but it was like, oh, my body is telling me I should be, you know, doing something, I'm gonna do it, which is exactly what my husband said, because I told the nurse, I said, hey, I feel like, you know, I really need to start pushing. She's like, no, no, no, no, we just checked you, you're not ready yet, like, just, just relax. And my husband leans over and whispers to me, he's like, if you need to push, just push. Okay. So, I had been doing that, and then, you know, after a little bit, he's like, yeah, you guys might want to come and check, you know, let's, let's see, because things seem like they're getting there, and so they come in and check, and she's like, yep, you're at a 10, and so my doctor's standing there waiting, and then it kind of was a little bit of a panic, because I had been listening to the monitors the the whole time, you know, and Here, here, the heart rate, well, it got to the point to where during the contractions, he was, it's what, decelling?

Kiona:

Yeah.

Brandy:

Where his heart rate goes down a little um, not an alarming amount, but it was enough that my doctor was like, no, we're gonna go ahead and push now, like,

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Brandy:

If it gets worse, we'll deal with it, but right now, you're safe to push, let's push. So, first push, his head was completely out, and it was 7, 12 p. m., And and so she has, you know, has your paws, cleans up his nose, his mouth, those things, and was like, okay, we're ready to push again. Well, then he was stuck. His shoulders were wedged.

Kiona:

Mm.

Brandy:

So, I'm pushing, she's pulling and wiggling, and trying to maneuver him. My My husband is terrified, standing next to me, thinking that we're gonna be heading for a C-section. Uh, he told me after the fact that he saw towards the end, right before I was able to finally break him free and get him out, that my doctor had a look of panic, that she was gonna have to C-section me. but thankfully, his shoulder unwedged, and he made it to his chest, and then got stuck again. but with that, you know, not having the shoulder in the way anymore, she was able to wiggle him the rest of the way out, so. It seemed like it was, like, 10, 15 minutes, but it was only two minutes of trying get him unstuck, Yeah, he ended up being born at 7, 14.

Kiona:

Yeah. And his weight was?

Brandy:

A A lot.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brandy:

Nine pounds, 13 ounces.

Kiona:

Yes, that is a juicy babe. And I will say, just off top, not all babies this size get stuck, right? There are some babies this size and larger that will come out of your body perfectly fine without getting a shoulder dystocia. With that said, this shoulder dystocia that you just told me makes total sense for all of that panic to happen. And one thing that is interesting is once baby's head is out, There's no going back, right? So, that's where panic sets in. That's where other tools come into play, like maneuvers, forceps, vacuums, like all of those things come into play more often at that point. And so, what is going through your head as all of this is going on around you?

Brandy:

I need to get this baby out. That was my entire energy and focus was solely on focus my pushes, make sure that I'm working with my contractions instead of against them, and trust that my doctor is wiggling in the right direction at the right time.

Kiona:

Yeah, so your doctor was doing maneuvers, were the nurses pushing on your pubic bone or trying to adjust the shoulder to go behind the pubic bone externally or?

Brandy:

If they were, I do not know. I don't, I could not tell you what they were doing down there because I was 100% in the mindset of just keep pushing.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Brandy:

I don't, I probably didn't even have my eyes open for half of that time.

Kiona:

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. So, okay, you get him out.

Brandy:

Mm-hmm.

Kiona:

Do they put him directly on your chest still?

Brandy:

Yes. Yep.

Kiona:

Awesome.

Brandy:

Straight to my chest, um, which I think one of those pictures that I sent to you, that was right after he had been put on my chest. They pretty much put him up there and let him hang out and, you know, did the rub down, made sure everything was good. He did have a little bit of bruising on one of his arms from the whole scenario, but. Nothing, nothing concerning. And so then we just got to hang out and wait for the placenta, basically.

Kiona:

I think that it's really awesome that they continue to put him onto your chest after that, because sometimes they don't, right? Because sometimes it's a little bit scary and they're just checking on things. But the fact that he was still put on your chest is amazing. So, when you did feel him on your chest, did you kind of already feel that he was bigger than Owen?

Brandy:

Yeah, it was a much heavier weight for sure. But my doctor also. She doesn't usually stick around for, like, you know, after they've cleaned up and weighed him and all of those things. She'll kind of check back in later. She took a guess and her guess of his weight, just by feeling him, was nine pounds, ten ounces. And I was like, there's no way he's that big.

Kiona:

She's good.

Brandy:

I

Kiona:

have to work on my guesses. I keep getting them wrong. But, yeah, that's great. She was close.

Brandy:

Yeah, it was comical. We were having a pretty good time. Again, we were laughing in the delivery room. Like, hope not to have a third baby just because I know my OB is retired now,

Kiona:

I

Brandy:

and it wouldn't be the same.

Kiona:

Yeah, of course, of course.

Brandy:

course... She was amazing.

Kiona:

That's beautiful. I love that. It's always good when you have a solid relationship with your OB. That's really great. next question is, did you tear with Oliver?

Brandy:

I did not. that

Kiona:

Isn't Crazy. crazy?

Brandy:

I'm happy about it. I'm so glad. Because, yeah, after we found out how big he was, I was like, oh, my gosh. What did he do on the way out?

Kiona:

Right. Yeah. Especially with the shoulder dystocia, it makes me think of sometimes when shoulders are released, it's like an elbow would trail along or, you know, something. Like, it's tight in there, you

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

know? It's tight in there. So, yeah, I'm so happy to hear that you didn't tear. I'm happy to hear that he came out safely and was able to be put onto your chest. All of those good things. going back to the same questions I asked you before, how was your healing and what was your feeding choice this time?

Brandy:

It was, again, breastfeeding. And, again, overproducer. Except for this time around. So, when Owen was about six months old, I dropped in milk supply after being back to work and having to be away for so long. So, I kind of over-pumped and froze with Oliver. But, again, my husband was great with bringing me food and water and anything I needed so that I could just kind of hang out. And he would kind of take over primary duties with Owen, who was three at the time. Unfortunately, because we were still in that post-COVID time frame, no kids were allowed to visit at the hospital.

Kiona:

Mm-hmm.

Brandy:

The visitor had to be over 18. So, Owen didn't get to come and see his brother at the hospital, but he got to see him as soon as we left. complications with healing. Just trying to adjust to a four-person family.

Kiona:

Right.

Brandy:

It was harder than you would think, I guess.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I feel like the adjustments, they're all so different. Like, going from zero kids to one kid is obviously so drastic because your life has changed completely. And then every subsequent kid comes with a different layer of, oh, shit.

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

Like.

Brandy:

It's a good way to put it.

Kiona:

Yeah. What's happening now? What's changing? And how are we going to adjust as a family?

Brandy:

Mm-hmm.

Kiona:

And so, I think that that's just, that's the best way that I could describe it. I know it's not the most logical, but it's just everything changes. Like, the parents that you were when you had Owen have. was a completely different scent of parents than when you had Oliver because you guys were in a different place in your life and, you know, had different resources, potentially lived in a different house, like all of these things, right?

Brandy:

Well, and then unfortunately after Oliver, I did end up with some pretty bad postpartum depression. So, I know now that it's very common, but at the time, I felt so defeated and alone.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Brandy:

Couldn't understand why it was happening until I reached out for help and then once I got help, it was like a whole different world and I'm so glad I got help early on. Rather than just struggling through it.

Kiona:

Yeah, how old was Oliver when you decided that you needed a little bit of extra support?

Brandy:

He was probably between three and five weeks. I don't remember specifically, but it was before he was six weeks old. I know that.

Kiona:

Yeah. And I think that is such an important thing. I'm so happy that I asked that clarifying question because it brings me to the fact that most OB providers don't see parents back until six weeks.

Brandy:

Yep.

Kiona:

And you got seen before that. First off, good for you for reaching out and realizing that something has shifted and was different for you because that's not always super obvious to people. and then second, what was the thing that was going on with you mentally that made you realize that you needed extra support?

Brandy:

I think the biggest thing for me was I was so frustrated all the time. And for lack of better terminology, borderline terrified to be left alone just because I would have thoughts of, well, what if I can't take care of him on my own? I need somebody to help me or what if I forget to feed it wasn't that I was worried about, you know, everybody always thinks it's, well, you're going to hurt yourself or hurt the baby, which yes, those are things. But for me, that wasn't the scenario. I knew neither one of us were in danger, but I just had crippling thoughts of, like, I can't do this alone. So, putting him down for a nap would take hours. It was him feeding off my emotions. He wouldn't go to sleep because I couldn't be calm enough to provide the right space for him. So, it just got to be too much. I didn't sleep. I was hardly eating Yeah, it was just, it was a rough little bit there. But as soon called my OB, they rearranged the schedule and fit me in that day. It was probably. An hour after I called. Come, come in, like, we need to help you. So.

Kiona:

Yeah. So, what is it that they did to assist you with that?

Brandy:

the biggest thing was prescribe me with some low-dosage medication to help with the anxiety and the depression. Because I would just sit there and cry. Like,

Kiona:

Hmm.

Brandy:

any, any conversation would just make me cry. If baby. Maybe. And then also basically said, like, look, if this doesn't help, if you think you need more assistance or anything like that, give us a call. You know, we'll re-evaluate. You know, and then saying, like, hey, see if you have, you know, a grandma or a sibling or somebody who can come and hang out with you so you can get some sleep. Because that was her other concern was that I just wasn't sleeping. you know, you're taking care of a baby all the time. You're not sleeping.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yes. The, the crying with every conversation, that really hit home for me. Because I can relate to that after my son was born. So, after my second. And it was interesting because. I'm not sure if this is how you felt, but for me, it would feel like everything was okay, things were starting to get a little bit better, and then someone would try to give you feedback or talk about the baby or say, "Oh, where's the baby's socks at?" And even that simple remark would be like, "Am I doing this wrong? Like, what is happening? Like, why can't I feel confident in my ability to be a Especially after already being a parent to my first kiddo. So, I can relate to you on that one. So, I'm happy to hear that you got the support that you needed because that can downspiral so quickly.

Brandy:

Yeah.

Kiona:

So quickly, yeah.

Brandy:

I'm very glad that I reached out. It was the best decision of my postpartum, in my opinion. made the rest of it so much more enjoyable.

Kiona:

Yeah. Yes. And so, at what point did you feel like that fog or experience of depression was kind of lifting and going away?

Brandy:

It probably took three or four before I felt more normal And then I was able to sleep better. to get back about a week and a half after seeking help. I felt like a real person again.

Kiona:

Good. Good. Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's really good. So so, after after giving birth to Oliver, how have things with your family been? Like, what, talk to me about present day right now. How are things? Oliver is three. Using dad's father. How are things? Oliver is three. Owen is six. How's life?

Brandy:

Crazy.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Brandy:

Owen is in kindergarten. So, trying to juggle both full-time working for me and my husband, plus having a toddler in daycare and then picking a kindergartner up. It just feels like go, go, go all the time.

Kiona:

Yeah.

Brandy:

For For the last six months, actually, my husband was working out of town. So, during the week, he wouldn't even be here. So, it was even more chaos.

Kiona:

Right. Yeah.

Brandy:

Thankfully, he's back more local now. So, it's not as... Not as chaotic.

Kiona:

Yeah. Well, that's good. Trying to find that balance and, having that extra support makes a huge difference. That's a really big difference. So So, Brandi, I have three final closing questions for you. My My first question for you is, If you were to give advice to someone who is preparing for pregnancy, labor, and birth, what advice would you give?

Brandy:

"I would say when you talk to people who are trying to give you advice, tell them you want the bad and the ugly too. Not the good." Because... Since the biggest thing, for me, especially with Owen, was nobody ever gave the bad or the ugly."Oh, being a parent is the most wonderful thing in the world. You'll love it more than anything you've ever loved." So, although that is true, there are a lot of struggles when it comes to having kids. Babies, toddlers, kids, all of it. So, don't just take the good advice. Ask for the bad and the ugly too.

Kiona:

Yeah. And then also ask how they got through the bad and the ugly.

Brandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yeah, for sure. That's great advice. That's really, really great. My next question is what is one resource that I can pass along to all of the Birth As We Know Up podcast listeners on your behalf?

Brandy:

I found that was helpful for me was a pregnancy tracking app. There's quite a few out there that are pretty comparable, but they'll tell you, you know, fun little tidbits, like, "Oh, your baby's growing eyelids this week," or, you know, "It's the size of a pear." You know, those... I loved being able to just pop into the app every week or every day and check it out, The app I used had, like, a contraction timer and it had a kick counter, so you could, you know, take the time out to find your quiet place and lay down and count your kicks every day,'cause that was something I did with both of them to, you know, do the movement monitoring. So, yeah. Find an app that you like and just see what it's got. You know, there's... ...little tidbits that are sometimes just comical, too.

Kiona:

Yeah, I know. Seriously. Yeah, that's so true. I really also loved having apps. I know that there's a lot of listeners that love apps as well. Um, one of the first one that comes to mind for me is like BabyCenter. You know, BabyCenter has their app, um, where they talk about the sizes, what to expect in that week, contraction timers, um, like a blog as well so that you can read up on things other people talk about or pregnancy related things. So yes, apps are, good resources. So I agree with that and my final question to you, Brandy, is if you can describe each of your births with one word, what would those words be?

Brandy:

I would say for Owen, I would have to go with naive naive probably. feel like we were naive of the whole everything because didn't get the bad and the ugly, we just got the good. And, yeah, naive.

Kiona:

Yeah, okay, that's fair.

Brandy:

With Oliver, which fits him even now, um, chaos. There was so much chaos and he is a whirlwind for sure. It's, it holds true to his birth and his personality.

Kiona:

Yep. Okay, good. Those are wonderful words. And I think it's interesting. And I always love how they can be, like, pertain to present tense as well. Like with Oliver's, like, chaos is still, still to the same. Maybe it's the Sour Patch candies or whatever. I don't

Brandy:

Maybe. Maybe.

Kiona:

know.

Brandy:

He is my Sour Patch kid. Yeah.

Kiona:

Yes. Yeah. Oh, I got one of those for sure. Um, well, Brandy, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. I'm so excited to get this out there. And I think that your stories will really resonate with some that listen.

Brandy:

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Kiona:

Yes, of course.

Outro:

One of the things I loved most about this interview with Brandy was how she was so joyful and comical and how she let her laugh just flow throughout the interview. It showed me that talking about these experiences with her was so joyous and she was happy to share them with all of us. A couple of things that I wanted to point out about this episode is that Brandy really talked about the importance of listening to your own boundaries and realizing that in the moment as well. I also loved how she stepped into action very quickly when she realized that she was experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety symptoms. The fact that she felt comfortable enough to message her provider sooner rather than later before her six-week appointment was phenomenal. Brandy, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us and for encouraging others to use their voice when they need it most. And for you listeners, if you want to see any of the beautiful photos that Brandy sent of her family and the boys, as well as to look at the show notes, you can go to birthasweknowitpodcast. com/93. All right, friends, thank you for tuning in to the birth as we know it podcast today. There will be more to come. So stay tuned. Bye for now.

Head Shot

Kiona Nessenbaum

Host

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